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For funsies, I want to see what you all think is the individual power of a single average person from the major 40k races, compared to eachother (Eldar, Human, Chaos Marine, etc), arranged from strongest to weakest.

For example:

1) Space Marine
2) Eldar
3) Human
4) Tau

But, as a twist, I want to see three lists. One for how they are shown in fluff, and one for how they are represented in the TT. And a third one for how you want them to be show in both.

Clarification:
>Assume a 1v1 comparison for each member
>I don't have a predefined "power measurement"
>Hyperbole is allowed

Space Marine>Human>everything else.
The Uplifting Primer says so.

Important Commissars>SM>Humans>Who cares about the rest

With or without standard wargear?

Torquar wrote:
With or without standard wargear?

Whichever you think is more fun.

In terms of fluff, I'd have:

1) Ultramarines
2) Other Space Marines
3) Inquisition
4) Any Xenos other than Orks
5) Orks
6) Chaos Cults
7) Humans except PDF
8) Chaos Marines
9) PDF

Fluff-wise, I'd put it as the following:

(1) Powerful Ork Warboss (e.g. The Beast, Ghaz)
(2) Custodian Guard
(3) Grey Knights
(4) All of the following sub-list on roughly equal terms:
-- All Other Space Marines;
-- Chaos Space Marines;
-- Orks;
-- Xeno Commanders (e.g. Necron Overlords, Tau Battlesuit Commanders, etc)
(5) Sisters of Battle
(5) Inquisition excl. their Chamber Militant organisations)
(6) Xenos Foot-sloggers (Except Orks) (e.g. Necron Warrior, Fire Warrior, etc)
(7) Chaos Cults; All Other Human Soldiers.

You need to clearly define "average person". What do you mean? A soldier/grunt? Like a single troop model from each armies troop choice?

You also need to clearly define "strength". Like how much can they lift? How skilled they are as a soldier?

The pattern these types of topics follow is; the more ambiguous the OP, the more messy/off-topic the discussions become.

Without any gear or armour I'd say mehreens and orks are at the top. With power armour on the mehreens gets the lead due to durability. Both have comparable strength ranged weapons and both have same strength using melee weapons which both have a selection that are comparable as well. This is looking at common troops.

1: Custodes, Grey Knights
2: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, medium Tyranid creatures like Warriors and Lictors, Necron Immortals, Aspect Warriors, some Battlesuits
3: Ork Nobz, lesser Daemons, Sisters of Battle, Necron Warriors, Space Marine Scouts, Wyches, other Battlesuits
4: Guardians, Stormtroopers, Kabalite Warriors
5: Lesser Tyranids, veteran Guard units, Skitarii, Fire Warriors
6: Cultists, Guardsmen, renegades, Boyz, Kroot

This is assuming fluff. Ideally the game should portray this but it currently lacks the capacity and granularity, so I am not too bothered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Without any gear or armour I'd say mehreens and orks are at the top. With power armour on the mehreens gets the lead due to durability. Both have comparable strength ranged weapons and both have same strength using melee weapons which both have a selection that are comparable as well. This is looking at common troops.

Outside the game rules themselves, Marines carve apart Orks in scores. They are not even close.

I get it, I get it. You love Orks. I have an army of them too. But loving an army does not alone make them stronger lorewise!

I am particularly baffled here by you putting Orks on top. Not even the weird gameplay rules put Orks anywhere near the top, and once we move into lore territory it quickly detoriorates further (albeit not quite to the degree of cultists, renegades and guardsmen).

This is assuming Boyz. Nobz are MUCH more challenging opponents - the Space Marine game portrays this well.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Fluff-wise, I'd put it as the following:

(1) Powerful Ork Warboss (e.g. The Beast, Ghaz)
(2) Custodian Guard
(3) Grey Knights
(4) All of the following sub-list on roughly equal terms:
-- All Other Space Marines;
-- Chaos Space Marines;
-- Orks;
-- Xeno Commanders (e.g. Necron Overlords, Tau Battlesuit Commanders, etc)
(5) Sisters of Battle
(5) Inquisition excl. their Chamber Militant organisations)
(6) Xenos Foot-sloggers (Except Orks) (e.g. Necron Warrior, Fire Warrior, etc)
(7) Chaos Cults; All Other Human Soldiers.

I would drop Orks down to between (4) super humans and (5) Sisters but add Nobz between (3) Grey Knights and (4) the rest of the super humans. Ork boyz are not really quite as strong as a Space Marines but a Nob is a really tough beast that can tear apart an individual Space Marine. Grey Knights get the edge with their psychic powers enhancing their already superior physical power. Orks requite more distinction between each level as Orks continually get bigger and stronger so a species wide average is very inaccurate.

In the fluff are Necrons portrayed as not being that strong? Seems like Necron Warriors would be stronger than a Sister or even an Ork boy.

Whatever is ahead of it the Eldar Avatar is firmly rooted at the bottom.

Necrons are portrayed as quite powerful due to their devastating weapons and rapid regeneration.

I'd argue Marines would beat Nobz 1v1, but it would be a gruelling fight in which the Marine really has to use his skill and vastly superior speed to his advantage in order to win. The Space Marine game portrays this well - you lose if you try to beat the Nob at his own game, you must keep him on the back foot with shoulder-bashes, snap kicks and backhands (or dodges) to interrupt his powerful swings.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Whatever is ahead of it the Eldar Avatar is firmly rooted at the bottom.

Snotlings > Avatar of Khaine > Chaos Marines

 Ashiraya wrote:
Necrons are portrayed as quite powerful due to their devastating weapons and rapid regeneration.

I'd argue Marines would beat Nobz 1v1, but it would be a gruelling fight in which the Marine really has to use his skill and vastly superior speed to his advantage in order to win. The Space Marine game portrays this well - you lose if you try to beat the Nob at his own game, you must keep him on the back foot with shoulder-bashes, snap kicks and backhands (or dodges) to interrupt his powerful swings.

Yeah, the Space Marine game definitely did justice to the raw power of an Ork Nob. But you do play a Space Marine Captain in the game though, making you one of the most skilled and experienced warriors in the entire galaxy. An Ork Nob would wipe the floor with less experienced Marines and should probably be on about the same level as a Space Marine veteran.

Also, fluffwise Necrons are made out of living metal. That should make also them incredibly though and resilient on top of their regenerative abilities. Even a simple Necron Warrior should be quite a threat. I think that Ashiraya put them in the correct category alongside power armoured humans like the SoB.

My list would look like this:

Power category 0:
Phoenix Lords, Phaerons, Greater Daemons

Power category 1:
Custodes, Astartes Commanders, Grey Knights, Warbosses, Autarchs, Archons, Necron Lords, Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes.

Power category 2:
Veteran Astartes, Ork Nobz, Aspect Warriors, Incubi, Bloodbrides, Necron elites (Praetorians etc), some of the more powerful Battlesuits, powerful Tyranid creatures (like Lictors), Daemon Heralds.

Power category 3:
Astartes, Skitarii Ruststalkers and Infiltrators, Trueborn, Wracks, Necron Immortals, medium Tau Battlesuits, Tyranid Warriors.

Power category 4:
Sisters of Battle, Stormtroopers, Wyches, Necron Warriors, lesser Daemons.

Power category 5:
Astartes Scouts, Skitarii, more 'elite' Orks (such as Lootas or Kommandos), Guardians, Kabalite Warriors, Fire Warriors, Genestealers.

Power category 6:
Ordinary humans, Ork Boyz (altough they should easily be able to match category 5 if they can get into CC), Kroot, lesser Tyranid creatures.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Necrons are portrayed as quite powerful due to their devastating weapons and rapid regeneration.

I'd argue Marines would beat Nobz 1v1, but it would be a gruelling fight in which the Marine really has to use his skill and vastly superior speed to his advantage in order to win. The Space Marine game portrays this well - you lose if you try to beat the Nob at his own game, you must keep him on the back foot with shoulder-bashes, snap kicks and backhands (or dodges) to interrupt his powerful swings.

Yeah, the Space Marine game definitely did justice to the raw power of an Ork Nob. But you do play a Space Marine Captain in the game though, making you one of the most skilled and experienced warriors in the entire galaxy. An Ork Nob would wipe the floor with less experienced Marines and should probably be on about the same level as a Space Marine veteran.

Playing the game on the harder difficulties and Nobz will wipe the floor with you unless you play it smart and rely on your tools and tactics to win instead of brute force. That being said Bomb Squigs put everyone to shame

 Vankraken wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Necrons are portrayed as quite powerful due to their devastating weapons and rapid regeneration.

I'd argue Marines would beat Nobz 1v1, but it would be a gruelling fight in which the Marine really has to use his skill and vastly superior speed to his advantage in order to win. The Space Marine game portrays this well - you lose if you try to beat the Nob at his own game, you must keep him on the back foot with shoulder-bashes, snap kicks and backhands (or dodges) to interrupt his powerful swings.

Yeah, the Space Marine game definitely did justice to the raw power of an Ork Nob. But you do play a Space Marine Captain in the game though, making you one of the most skilled and experienced warriors in the entire galaxy. An Ork Nob would wipe the floor with less experienced Marines and should probably be on about the same level as a Space Marine veteran.

Playing the game on the harder difficulties and Nobz will wipe the floor with you unless you play it smart and rely on your tools and tactics to win instead of brute force. That being said Bomb Squigs put everyone to shame

Love that game. Great feel. Shame it was so repetitive, and that the devs went under.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Yeah, the Space Marine game definitely did justice to the raw power of an Ork Nob. But you do play a Space Marine Captain in the game though, making you one of the most skilled and experienced warriors in the entire galaxy. An Ork Nob would wipe the floor with less experienced Marines and should probably be on about the same level as a Space Marine veteran.

No. Space Marines do not get tougher or faster or stronger due to rank. The skill of the Captain compared to the rank and file Marines you play in Exterminatus is reflected by his access to Fury, his last chainsword combo attack hitting far more enemies, being able to fire a heavy bolter more effectively on the move, his stun move combos being more advanced and things like that.

Do you want to see what happens when a RANK AND FILE Marine fights Orks?

This happens.



Nobs are certainly not on par with veteran Marines 1v1. In fact, non-veterans should reliably defeat them 1v1, but it will take effort and time, and if the Nob has any friends it rapidly changes the odds (do note that the video depicts the marine besting several in melee because they are ranged and he is an ASM).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:

Playing the game on the harder difficulties and Nobz will wipe the floor with you unless you play it smart and rely on your tools and tactics to win instead of brute force. That being said Bomb Squigs put everyone to shame

The nobz will destroy you even on Normal if you just try to slash them to death, because they stunlock you with their basic attacks (especially the elite Nobz you face later on). You can reliably defeat them in melee by interrupting their attacks, however, even if it takes some time - this is true even on hard.

I was talking about the body, physical attributes, without armour and weapons. Marines and orks are on par with strength and toughness. Space Marine game is just Fandom bolter porn that doesn't put anything into perspective including it's fans. Not so sure it's accurate to compare individual power of a dude based on whatever weapon and equipment that dude picked up that day. Tomorrow the same dude can be carrying something different and it becomes a comparison of the power levels of equipment rather then the individual.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I was talking about the body, physical attributes, without armour and weapons. Marines and orks are on par with strength and toughness. Space Marine game is just Fandom bolter porn that doesn't put anything into perspective including it's fans. Not so sure it's accurate to compare individual power of a dude based on whatever weapon and equipment that dude picked up that day. Tomorrow the same dude can be carrying something different and it becomes a comparison of the power levels of equipment rather then the individual.

Orks are slow and Eldar are superfast. I'd give an Eldar the win, for example, because an ork would never hit him 1v1.

The Space Marine game is as canon as anything else - in fact, the fact that you can play CSM as well and they are just as strong should tell you that it's not some imperium fandom game (and CSM are certainly not lavished with love normally!)

And I assume your sources for Ork power are totally not ork porn like the Beast books? xD

Marines and Orks being on par with strength and toughness is a gameplay mechanic, and just like unarmored IG Majors being 3x as tough as their men, and should be disregarded (not even in the game mechanics are they equal strength - in fact, if you want to use game mechanics, I can safely claim boyz are no stronger than humans).

DakkaDakka porn is a bit of weakness. I'm also mistaken on comparable strength. Orks are only the same strength on the charge. They do suffer terribly from a lack of tactical acumen much to the relief of other races but as a species the Orks are tough cookies.

The game Space Marine is very funny to me. If some Runtherds actually commanded the thousands of grots the game flings at you and told them to stand and shoot then Captain Plot Armor would be dead in 15 seconds.

But than again they were being controlled by Chaos Space Marines, and as we know they're the only codex worse than orks. So it makes sense that the orks in that game were garbage.

Space Marines are clearly better than your average ork, but I don't think by much. A lot of fluff really tries to give you the impression of Space Marines making daring last stands to be all heroic, but common sense dictates that 4-5 orks tackling you should kill even the most die-hard marine.

The Gretchin in Space Marine had only knives. Even then, I doubt blastas would do any more to his power armor than throwing daggers at a concrete wall would.

As far as I am concerned, the results of a battle between a Marine and some Orks would depend a lot on how many come at once, at what distance, etc, but I can't see those axes and big knives being terribly effective against heavy armor plating even if we discount the massive disparity in speed and training.

 Don Savik wrote:
But than again they were being controlled by Chaos Space Marines, and as we know they're the only codex worse than orks. So it makes sense that the orks in that game were garbage.

Want me to show you how many orks you can solokill even as a Chaos marine?

That video makes me sad

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Yeah, the Space Marine game definitely did justice to the raw power of an Ork Nob. But you do play a Space Marine Captain in the game though, making you one of the most skilled and experienced warriors in the entire galaxy. An Ork Nob would wipe the floor with less experienced Marines and should probably be on about the same level as a Space Marine veteran.

No. Space Marines do not get tougher or faster or stronger due to rank. The skill of the Captain compared to the rank and file Marines you play in Exterminatus is reflected by his access to Fury, his last chainsword combo attack hitting far more enemies, being able to fire a heavy bolter more effectively on the move, his stun move combos being more advanced and things like that.

Do you want to see what happens when a RANK AND FILE Marine fights Orks?

This happens.

Spoiler:

Nobs are certainly not on par with veteran Marines 1v1. In fact, non-veterans should reliably defeat them 1v1, but it will take effort and time, and if the Nob has any friends it rapidly changes the odds (do note that the video depicts the marine besting several in melee because they are ranged and he is an ASM).

In the Space Marine game, yes. But the Space Marine game is still just a videogame. It does a lot of things right, but it is not fluffy in everything (like Cadian guardsmen unable to kill Gretchin). Multiplayer (where that video comes from) is even more unfluffy. The difference between veterans, Captains and "ordinary" Space Marines is much larger in the books than it is in the Space Marine game. And an assault marine (who is relatively inexperienced compared to tactical marines, let alone veterans) is not reliably able to kill Ork Nobz one on one. Or at least, I have yet to read such a thing.

They probably can, a veteran Stormtrooper managed to kill a Nob in close combat in a book.

Took him everything (and he shot the Nob a few time), but still.

Pound for pound the Tau hit harder than most thing in fluff and on tabletop. In the fluff the Tau are capable of geoengineering projects that are starting to close in on Eldar level of technology minus the wraithbone aspect.

In the FSE book (6th) you can see the insane level and details they go into when terraforming a planet. They're able to construct city sized orbital defense platforms in days at most weeks. These are large enough to rival Imperial styled defense platforms as well.

They just happen to be a small Empire. If they were to ever get bigger the Imperium... nay... the entire galaxy would be in trouble.

In a matter of weeks/months they are already creating new shielding technology for their ships to pass through what might be warp related (damocles gulf inferno).

The only thing that stops them from being a big player is their lack of numbers.

They defeated a hive fleet with a virus that even the Tyranids couldn't adapt to. And this was the FSE with its limited resources and not even the full TE.

Edit
They are so feared the Imperium employed Super Experminatus on an entire region of Space. The first time I've ever heard of that happening.

Edit
In fluff that I've read one on one the Tau are fairly weak. The whole point is they work together and don't play to the whole machismo rules of the 40k universe. By working together better than any other faction they are able to punch far above their weight.

Edit
One on one firewarriors basic pulse rifle has been shown to punch through power armor quite reliably. Their breacher pulse guns eviscerate power armor.

We need an exterminatus.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They probably can, a veteran Stormtrooper managed to kill a Nob in close combat in a book.

Took him everything (and he shot the Nob a few time), but still.

I can see that happening, yeah. The odds are not with him but STs are smart enough to not play the Nob's game.

A Guardsman's greatest strength is his unwavering loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind. It is what allows him to charge forth with thousands of his comrades towards certain doom, for he knows that every bullet he takes is one less bullet the enemy has, weakening their attack.

"Let's drown them in our bodies" is a valid tactic for the Guard.

ziggurattt wrote:
A Guardsman's greatest strength is his unwavering loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind. It is what allows him to charge forth with thousands of his comrades towards certain doom, for he knows that every bullet he takes is one less bullet the enemy has, weakening their attack.

"Let's drown them in our bodies" is a valid tactic for the Guard.

So is "drown them in tanks" and "drown them in artillery" and "let the space marines do 5% of the work and claim 100% of the credit" lol.