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 keezus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
@Keezus -Is that an upside down Renegade head there?

Good eye. It is an upside down Mangler head. -edit- It's actually not upside down. The top of the mangler's head is conveniently hidden by the Berserker's cowl.

You're too quick! I corrected myself after I posted.

I've got a spare Renegade head kicking around (one of mine has Ol Rowdy's head in a big middle finger to those electric swans ) and thought my Drago could use a face upgrade, though that would piss him off immensely.

I would have to say no.

There are some pieces that are quite expensive, like ruin, but then the Grolar is half the price and it was released last month..,.

Besides, unlike 40k, you'll only ever buy one Ruin, whereas you'll need to buy multiple expensive models to play 40k.

IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.

So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
However in PP's eyes it you model chains on a berserker you have a berserker with chains, you don't have Drago, and you cant use him as Drago unless you buy the Drago miniature *till-ching* who costs a lot more than a regular berserker.

PP has a new conversion policy actually, I believe that example would be considered legal now: https://privateerpress.com/organized-play/tournament-conversion-policy

Two axes and chains should make a legal drogo, it's more than 50% PP model, it has the iconic parts of drogo (the only thing that makes him different is the chains really), and doesn't infringe anyone else's copywrites.

Most welcome change, and long overdue.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.

So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.

YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?

 keezus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.

So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.

YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?

I think that's something that needs to be understood. The Rifle Corp box is 10 for €40, while the regular Winter Guard box is 13 for €33. In most Khador lists, you'll be taking a single unit, and the regular Winter Guard will probably always have the UA attached. Meanwhile, the €25 Tactical Squad box comes with the expectation that you'll buy 2-4 total.

 keezus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.

So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.

YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?

I had two metal large unit blisters of six temple Flameguard, and converted two into the UA. Did the same with Winterguard, even lower way back, but slightly differently, there was no UA when I did the conversion, a decade ago now, it just seemed right to me that one guy in the squad carried a big red flag. It got confusing later though.

Not even remotely close to good enough to pay full price. Hell a lot of their stuff isn't worth paying 50% off. Its just bad

Yeah they're overpriced. Have been forever. Don't buy the whole "it's X% of your army compared to Y%!"

I compare models based on their sculpt, size and material. PP models are overpriced compared to everything except GW, and priced on a par with GW while having inferior materials for many sculpts.

If I had a vibrant community to play with, the price wouldn't matter. But I buy models mostly for myself these days with little prospect of getting a game in, so that "community premium" is no longer worth it to me.

I have to say the materials of the minis is a big, big deal for me now too.

 keezus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
IMO, PP prices are way too high. People complain about high GW prices (and rightly so), but PP is just as bad, if not worse.
Wayland Games is selling a box of 10 plastic Space Marines for €25, but a box of 10 plastic Winter Guard costs €40! (and for both this includes a 20% discount from retail!) And the big difference is that where the Space Marines are multipose figures and highly customisable with lots of different and extra bits, the Winter Guard are monopose with only 5 unique poses! I really don't see any possible justification for this.
I have a small Khador force, and I love the fluff, gameplay and style of Warmachine, but the prices really prevent me from expanding my army or getting into different factions.

So yes. I would say that PP has indeed priced their minis out of the market. At least for me. If I didn't also play 40k, DzC and By Fire and Sword it would probably be different though. But Warmachine is just too expensive to be played alongside other games.

YMMV. The Winterguard box contains 13 very points cheap dudes. If all of them are taken, the box comes out to just over 20% of your army and is pretty much an auto-include in most Khador armies (plus the UA sold separately and minus the filler rocket guys). A tricked out tactical squad comes out to... maybe 12% of your army?

It depends on the point values you play on.
But I judge a model's worth based on the model itself, not on its points value in the game. Otherwise I would play with cardboard tokens. Exact the same points value, only 1% of the costs.

I'm priced out of ever starting a new army but the pace of updates is slow enough that I sometimes buy a few new releases a year to update my existing forces.

That said I think I spent $40 on PP in the last year so i have not been keeping up with the releases.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah they're overpriced. Have been forever. Don't buy the whole "it's X% of your army compared to Y%!"

I compare models based on their sculpt, size and material

That's fair if you're buying models to paint, but if you're attempting to compare the cost of getting into a game then it is perhaps the most fair metric to do so.

If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?

As to the OP, I've been looking for several years to find a faction who's models grabbed me sufficiently to buy in. It hasn't happened yet, but should it happen in the future, I doubt the odd few % missing on the discount would discourage me, I'd shop around for the best deal just as I would now.

 Azreal13 wrote:
If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?

No, it doesn't.

 Azreal13 wrote:


If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?

Uhm...what kind of game would that be, with only a single miniature?

A hypothetical one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?

No, it doesn't.

Let's take the witticisms and subjectivity out of the responses, this is hypothetical, so kindly treat it as such, but if there was a game you could play competitively, enjoyed playing and cost around £30, in relation to the typical buy in for that level of participation currently, you'd consider it poor value, even if what was included was quite expensive in terms of what the constituent raw materials cost if bought for other games?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying that reasoning at all.

I've been around people and gamers long enough to know that the response would be "ok, it's a lot for X, but that's all I need to buy and the game is really good fun!"

Recently, I started buying GW models to make warmachine units (Black Knights/Hexwraiths to make a unit of bane riders, Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn to make a unit of Raptors, a box of ten VC skeletons to make Bane Knights, adding some GW bits - Warriors of Chaos halberds) and in doing so saved A TON of cash, which in Portugal's current economy is kind of a big deal. I think this says it all really.

P.S.: I don't play at tournaments or any other form of organized play, just not my thing. Also, the release of huge based models didn't sit well with me, estranging me more and more from the game.

A lot of ancilliary feature make up the value and whether it is worth the price.

Take Battletech for instance, people pay a lot for original miniatures, and even more if they are unseen. The per unit price for the current range from Iron Wind Metals is also very high for a miniature standing about as tall as a space marine because the players buy individual miniatures from a vast range.
No one really complains about the price even though on a per unit basis is makes PP seem cheap.

Hawk Wargames also knows how to charge people for DZC it's not a cheap game either to buy an army or on a per model basis, but people like the companies attitude so the price matters less.

Games Workshop has lower prices than PP but generates more hate than any other miniature company out there. Bootleggers of GW miniatures are treated like folk heroes, while bootlegging anyone elses miniatures would induce nerdrage.

So what about PP and their prices? People tend to forgive them as a company because they get the rules right and don't bullcrap the customers over army books. It buys them a lot of good will, and the models are sold in useful sized packets for an enjoyable game. But the price is creeping up and up now, and the range is expanding so investment levels to keep in the game are raising and the bubble is beginning to burst now they are starting to be dicks on pricing. All this may have a lot more bearing on the sub-concious tolerance of the companies prices.

The business of value isnt rational, it's subjective, and who you are buying the models from and whether you like the producers ethos has as much to do with whether the purchase is good for you as the price and product.

For what it's alternately work I will probably still play because the rules are that good. But I can't help but feel the same kind of unease I felt some 15 years ago when GW first had their new online policy.

I have dallied around with Warmahordes for years now, being prevented by a couple of things:

No single line captures my interest fully. There are sculpts I love in several ranges but then a number of others I cannot stand and I'm told that to use X I must take Y or lose the game.

Repeats in units. I hate repeated models in units. Even playing WHFB as a young boy, I would convert and adjust to ensure no repetition, then PP wants top dollar for a unit of 10 minis where there are only 4 sculpts... Newp.

Now with GW coming in from the cold again... My interest in 30k growing and change on the horizon for 40k... I can spend on 'premium' models that I'll actually like the look of.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?

No, it doesn't.

Let's take the witticisms and subjectivity out of the responses, this is hypothetical, so kindly treat it as such, but if there was a game you could play competitively, enjoyed playing and cost around £30, in relation to the typical buy in for that level of participation currently, you'd consider it poor value, even if what was included was quite expensive in terms of what the constituent raw materials cost if bought for other games?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying that reasoning at all.

It remains unacceptably expensive because a single 30mm scale infantry model is incapable of adding value to the game in proportion to that cost. I could buy an argument that a fireteam-level skirmish game is best played with 3 3/4" action figures and not 28mm miniatures, or that a game where each player controls their own mech is more fun with big, articulated toys and not 1" tall miniatures, but I don't believe that a game that charges 30 pounds for a single 30mm miniature would be ten times less fun if I substituted it for a more reasonably priced alternative.

 Dysartes wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).

Hang on - when did using metal become a bad thing?

I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the Primecast podcasts (when I was listening to it) that their intent was to use the material to produce a figure that they felt was the best-suited for the design, whether than be metal, resin, PVC or HIPs - or a composite of pieces from multiple materials.

For non-character models? About a decade ago.

And the thing about your latter part is that GW and Wyrd and KD have shown that HIPS is pretty much always best-suited for the design nowadays. I picked up the new plastic Grolar (from Miniature Market of course) and it is fantastic, and it went together fast and looks great. There's no reason units or warbeasts or anything really can't be done in HIPS anymore, except PP doesn't want to shell out for molds when they can make them in PVC that nobody likes, or metal which is way outdated.

All SF/Fantasy figures are to some degree overpriced, because you are paying for the hopefully unique design that can't be found anywhere else and also because GW have legitimised the expectation that SF/Fantasy figures should be expensive compared to historicals.

In reality, there are quite a few options for lots of different rank and file type of SF/F figures. It's the unique special units that are harder to substitute.

In either case, the value for money of the unit is partly a matter of aesthetic appeal, which is a personal thing.

I am pretty much priced out of PP models now, except for a few that I really want or need to have for tournaments. My plan now is to just have 2 tournament lists that cover most everything and run those with official models (I have a large collection all purchased from MM for the most part) and anything I don't already have I will scratch build or use other stuff for that I like better.

Prime example for me is the UA for the Wolves of Orboros. Mediocre unit to begin with, and dropping 18$ MSRP for 2 models to add to the unit is a rough pill to swallow. I actually had 2 of the buggers in my MM cart (for Grayle's theme force) but when the price increase happened I sighed and deleted them. I am buying a Hail Caesar starter set instead, and will use some other models for the UA. Good thing my local group likes a good proxy

 AlexHolker wrote:

Spoiler:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
If a single, 30mm scale infantry model costs me £30, then that's expensive. If, however, that's literally the only purchase I need make to be able to play a game to its fullest extent, then surely that makes it a good value game, if an expensive model?

No, it doesn't.

Let's take the witticisms and subjectivity out of the responses, this is hypothetical, so kindly treat it as such, but if there was a game you could play competitively, enjoyed playing and cost around £30, in relation to the typical buy in for that level of participation currently, you'd consider it poor value, even if what was included was quite expensive in terms of what the constituent raw materials cost if bought for other games?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying that reasoning at all.

It remains unacceptably expensive because a single 30mm scale infantry model is incapable of adding value to the game in proportion to that cost. I could buy an argument that a fireteam-level skirmish game is best played with 3 3/4" action figures and not 28mm miniatures, or that a game where each player controls their own mech is more fun with big, articulated toys and not 1" tall miniatures, but I don't believe that a game that charges 30 pounds for a single 30mm miniature would be ten times less fun if I substituted it for a more reasonably priced alternative.

Fine, use that as the hypothetical bench mark if you like. You're trying to pick holes in my example while missing the point I was making, that using a price per model metric to judge the cost of a game is futile, and you're much better off taking a holistic view when considering games

If you're declaring "I wish to paint a unit of 10 models, I am system and material agnostic and have no intention of ever gaming with them" then price per model is much more relevant.

 Azreal13 wrote:
If you're declaring "I wish to paint a unit of 10 models, I am system and material agnostic and have no intention of ever gaming with them" then price per model is much more relevant.

Even in that case I'd suggest price per model is pretty low on the list, subject material and quality would be the big ones.

I agree price per model is a flawed view point. The cost of making the models themselves is small compared to actually getting the models in to the hands of gamers. So if a game A requires 100 models to play and game B requires 20 models, even given the same quality game A should be cheaper per model because because they're likely selling them in boxes of 20 which don't cost much more to make than game B who might be selling them in boxes of 5.

PP has mostly just failed to make models I care about, that's far important to me than price. I'm not buying a box of Perry Agincourt infantry because they're cheaper per model nor am I buying a Tamiya Mosquito because it's the best quality, they are simply the subject matter that interests me and within that, they are the best models (IMO).

Schmapdi wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
They still release a disappointing amount of new stuff in metal too, (like Croak Hunters, a 10 man unit in metal, yuck) and still use a fair bit of metal with their resin kits (hybrid kits, double yuck). And stuff like the Butcher 3 is crazy expensive (like $60? for a character model - even if he comes with 2 big dogs is kinda crazy).

Hang on - when did using metal become a bad thing?

I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the Primecast podcasts (when I was listening to it) that their intent was to use the material to produce a figure that they felt was the best-suited for the design, whether than be metal, resin, PVC or HIPs - or a composite of pieces from multiple materials.

For non-character models? About a decade ago.

You really have quite a skewed view there. The market leader, GW were producing units in metal right up until Finecast came about in 2011.

What do you mean were?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Battle-Sister-Squad

 Azreal13 wrote:
What do you mean were?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Battle-Sister-Squad

SOBs are not Finecast?

Well well well... GW get with the times! It's 2016!

Yeah, they couldn't even be bothered to update them to the gakky rubbish they replaced metal with, and people still get excited for plastics!

I consider the grey PVC material to be terrible, so yes, the price for what you get is totally out of line.

What I think is really going on with PP's relationship with online sales is that the boom has ended for them. They've had years of growth as people left GW and checked them out and I'm guessing that's largely come to an end. Everyone who used to deal with GW who left for PP has done so. It's easy to not care about discounters making money selling online when you are growing and everything is great and booming, but when that ends and things are flat lining and sales through brick and mortar stores start to drop, it's an easy thing to blame it on one of your sales channels cannibalizing another.