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I came across this same build a few times recently - a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry combined with Wolf Lord, Iron Fathers, and a White Scars librarius conclave (on bikes, of course) all together. Generally how it went is that they would roll eventually to get invisibility and other buffs off on a 2+ to create this unit that spanned the whole depth of the board. It was really a pain to manage, especially with all of the look out, sir rolls as I attempted to focus down the librarians.

The games ended up not so bad, considering how bad that unit is at grabbing objectives, but how would you guys handle seeing something like that? It makes me want to buy Eldar Warp Hunters just for the templates...heh heh heh...

Barrage is fairly important if you can hit them before Invis goes off.

Try to minimize his ability to multi assault.

Tie it up with something extremely difficult to remove.

play the corners of the map. Spread objectives. abuse reserves. deny multicharges. go 2nd. dont shoot the deathstar, kill all supporting units as fast as possible. play the mission. dont try to alpha strike them unless you know you can cripple/kill them or youll be in awful position for countercharge.

Depiste having ATSKNF or a high LD score, is the unit Fearless? If not then Freakshow tactics could REALLY screw with them.

Not to add to the cheese of his list but I went up again this list as well except add in a heralds of the great wolf group that let's him seize on a 5 up. This is purely a jerk list and anyone running this should swiftly result in a lack of friends. It's only going to becoming more of a pain when the new psychic powers show up for space marines making those librarians even more buff heavy. Anybody that can come up with a better method of dealing with this than sticking a culexis assassin in his dog kennel, I'd love to hear about it.

Could you explain what Heralds of the Great Wolf is?

Ally in daemons with masque and shut the deathstar down. That's what i'm doing with my orkses.

Herald of the great wolf is a unit of three guys on thunder wolves (formation) that allows seize the initiative on a 5+. It's a formation bonus. It's especially effective in this army because it's going to reduce the chance that you get a first turn to shoot at the unit before they buff up with psychic powers that pass on a 2+ with the librarius conclave.

Heralds of the great wolf from the wulfen book, cannot be given all twc. 1 can the iron priest, but the other 2 need to be on bikes and they cannot join any other units.

They can't join other units but independent characters can join them.

Going to have to throw in that I've never seen Heralds used on the table. Most Thunderdome lists include Cavalry, Libby Cave, and Azrael/Sammael. Also the RW Command Squad is almost always what you are attaching it to.

Earlier I asked what the Herald Formation was because I never heard of it. I tried making a few lists where you could take advantage of their bonuses, but the former unit composition (I listed above) out does it in every aspect.

As for how to handle it, your list needs to have the tools to handle a deathstar in order for it have a chance. It's a list building meta, not a tactical one. Yes, you need tactics to win, don't get me wrong, but if your list isn't equipped to handle a deathstar, you're out of luck.

I've been running my SW/DA/LC Deathstar list finally for only 6 games. (2 months of slowly painting it) What I've found to be the most "scary" is: 3 Knights (all charging at the same time), Flying Circus (5 FMC Daemons) - we ignore each other and scrap off secondaries and tertiaries all games, Brass Scorpions - preferably grimmed/cursed earthed, and -although I haven't played it yet- MSU Gladius. Outflanks and being literally in every corner helps kite the deathstar as well.

Please note, I play with Nova's ruleset 80% of the time with some ITC thrown in. This being the case, I only have S9 cavalry. I will be tooling with the list to get S10 before Nova this year, but I don't have the actual model I need for WYSIWYG reasons.

Hope this helps or shines a light on the OP's post.

Stop playing 4000 point games that allow someone to field this and have enough of an army to actually achieve the mission.

Bring more D weapons?

that Forgeworld massive blast thing with ST10 ap1 ignore cover?

an impossible to kill GMC?

IF TWC death star is a thing then your meta has started the arms race. ether you quit or make your wallet cry.

OR the simple thing is to play low points games so that shenanigans cant really happen. or start house ruling really hard if its hurting the casuals/semi casuals.

Actual tactics would be to split up your army hard so they have to focus on one flank or another.

if its objectives then split them up that way so you are scoring as much as possible.

but dont forget to take pot shots at anything he has for scoring as well.

edit: completely forgot about air as next po

Sounds like one of the NOVA champion lists. I've seen him field it a couple of times. Fast moving, multiple targets will give you the best change to deal with at range. Also Air power can really help since the list is most likely going to be lacking on the AA. Play to the mission. He might be able to break up the star into two smaller ones, maybe a 3rd, but he can't be every where on the table.

The list that my friend here is talking about is as follows:

Company of the Great Wolf detachment

HQ:

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Elites:

Servitor

Servitor

Fast Attack:

Drop Pod


Space Wolves Heralds of the Great Wolf formation detachment

Iron Priest / Thunderwolf / Tempest Hammer
Rune Priest / ML1 / Space Marine Bike / Rune Axe
Wolf Priest / Space Marine Bike


Space Marines Librarius Conclave(White Scars Chapter Tactics) formation detachment

Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Stave
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe


Total: 1500

It's a literal 1 unit army that can break off 8 ICs as needed. The Heralds of the Great Wolf have a bunch of nasty special abilities. All the heralds have IWND, you can choose to ignore the first failed saving throw per herald per phase, and enemies shooting at the unit subtract 1 from their ballistic skill. You also get to re-roll to see who goes first or add 1 to your seize the the initiative roll. So with look out sirs you can quite easily literally disregard 3 wounds to the unit per phase, which adds up. Most of the time enemies shoot at BS3, so there goes your need for invisibility. If you do take a wound on a herald, they might get it back with IWND. And now with the new SM powers your saves look something like 2+/3++ with re-roll and a 6+ FnP(sometimes 4+ if you decide to roll endurance). If there's an ID wound you just don't feel like taking, you look out sir onto a herald and ignore it.

I can also quite easily get off a turn 1 charge with the electrodisplacement power, which is why there is a drop pod in the list for the servitor to ride in.


As to how to beat it... that's a little harder for me to say. I obviously built it so that wouldn't happen, but outplaying the list itself to win the mission is probably one of the better ways to go. Not much this list fears when it comes to enemy models. knights, wraithknights and surges are probably the only thing that could seriously dent the unit(if they survive to stomp and roll that 6).

Wow the feth is this gak.

it hurts to look at it.

(competitive tournaments excluded)

 Desubot wrote:
Wow the feth is this gak.

it hurts to look at it.

(competitive tournaments excluded)

Which is what this list was built for. It's a local, more stringent 1500 ITC tourny in a month.

The list I mentioned above is only 1850. If you want to, you can run a similar list with less Iron Priests and squeeze it in a 1500. Also, I would consider the Dark Angels a lot harder to kill as Veil of Time and Earth's Crust gives you 2 of the benefits that the Heralds do. Yes, you would have to "fish" for those powers. After Invis on Tiggy, (75% chance to get it on him), you start rolling on Veil of Time anyhow. As for the other benefits for DA, it's 5+ FNP, autopass HnR, and 4++ on all models.

The OP's friend's list relies on Armor/Cover saves on everyone except the 4 Battle Leaders (they have 3++ from the shields). I have a White Scars Command spamming list (close friend's Nova list) I run into weekly that has 36 Gravs shots (3 command bike squads) and 15 Grav Cent's shots with Hunter's Eye with Culexus in a secondary pod. All on turn one (reliably with Scout).

The list Link mentioned is strong, but against that army, it's gone. It doesn't have the Cyberwolves to nerf the grav or the Look Out Sir/Ablative wounds the wolves provide. There will always be something important standing in the front/side/back (Grav pod targets).

With no psychic powers and no wolves, I feel like it's a lot weaker than the current Thunderdome lists that are winning.

As for advice, there have been some sprinkled throughout the post, just need to play with the list you bring. It might just be a problem with list building and not tactics.

What do you normally bring? Link/Husky?

Saythings wrote:
The list I mentioned above is only 1850. If you want to, you can run a similar list with less Iron Priests and squeeze it in a 1500. Also, I would consider the Dark Angels a lot harder to kill as Veil of Time and Earth's Crust gives you 2 of the benefits that the Heralds do. Yes, you would have to "fish" for those powers. After Invis on Tiggy, (75% chance to get it on him), you start rolling on Veil of Time anyhow. As for the other benefits for DA, it's 5+ FNP, autopass HnR, and 4++ on all models.

The OP's friend's list relies on Armor/Cover saves on everyone except the 4 Battle Leaders (they have 3++ from the shields). I have a White Scars Command spamming list (close friend's Nova list) I run into weekly that has 36 Gravs shots (3 command bike squads) and 15 Grav Cent's shots with Hunter's Eye with Culexus in a secondary pod. All on turn one (reliably with Scout).

The list Link mentioned is strong, but against that army, it's gone. It doesn't have the Cyberwolves to nerf the grav or the Look Out Sir/Ablative wounds the wolves provide. There will always be something important standing in the front/side/back (Grav pod targets).

With no psychic powers and no wolves, I feel like it's a lot weaker than the current Thunderdome lists that are winning.

As for advice, there have been some sprinkled throughout the post, just need to play with the list you bring. It might just be a problem with list building and not tactics.

What do you normally bring? Link/Husky?

the list with the 51 grav shots you mentioned; is that at 1500 or 1850? I bring the list that I posted. That's mine, and that's the list Bedford was referring to. At 1850 I play a different version, it has a ravenwing command squad as the core and uses iron hand chapter tactics for 2+ and 3+ FnPs.

Hahahaha, how on earth would anyone let that "army" win an actual game.

Well, to be serious here, are you guys not actually using standard missions?

The Command Squad/Cents is his 1850 list. We don't play a lot of 1500 as we mostly play with Nova/ITC rules.

What does Bedford use? From what I read, he never posted his own army list. Could be squeezed in there somewhere.

What allows you to do 2+ or 3+ FNPs? The new Iron Hands supplement with Libby Conclave?

Edit: @Darkness, it was mentioned before and I repeated in this post, but Nova/ITC. We (my friends and I) don't play "standard" book missions; but both Nova and ITC are pretty "standard" in regards to the BRB. Albeit, ITC more closely represents the BRB missions. You make it seem like a Deathstar can't win standard book missions though, which is interesting

I"m not saying a deathstar can't win a standard mission.

I'm saying an army that consists entirely of one deathstar is trivially easy to beat at a standard mission.

LinkXx wrote:
The list that my friend here is talking about is as follows:

Company of the Great Wolf detachment

HQ:

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Elites:

Servitor

Servitor

Fast Attack:

Drop Pod


Space Wolves Heralds of the Great Wolf formation detachment

Iron Priest / Thunderwolf / Tempest Hammer
Rune Priest / ML1 / Space Marine Bike / Rune Axe
Wolf Priest / Space Marine Bike


Space Marines Librarius Conclave(White Scars Chapter Tactics) formation detachment

Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Stave
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe


Total: 1500

It's a literal 1 unit army that can break off 8 ICs as needed. The Heralds of the Great Wolf have a bunch of nasty special abilities. All the heralds have IWND, you can choose to ignore the first failed saving throw per herald per phase, and enemies shooting at the unit subtract 1 from their ballistic skill. You also get to re-roll to see who goes first or add 1 to your seize the the initiative roll. So with look out sirs you can quite easily literally disregard 3 wounds to the unit per phase, which adds up. Most of the time enemies shoot at BS3, so there goes your need for invisibility. If you do take a wound on a herald, they might get it back with IWND. And now with the new SM powers your saves look something like 2+/3++ with re-roll and a 6+ FnP(sometimes 4+ if you decide to roll endurance). If there's an ID wound you just don't feel like taking, you look out sir onto a herald and ignore it.

I can also quite easily get off a turn 1 charge with the electrodisplacement power, which is why there is a drop pod in the list for the servitor to ride in.


As to how to beat it... that's a little harder for me to say. I obviously built it so that wouldn't happen, but outplaying the list itself to win the mission is probably one of the better ways to go. Not much this list fears when it comes to enemy models. knights, wraithknights and surges are probably the only thing that could seriously dent the unit(if they survive to stomp and roll that 6).

Other ICs attached to the Herald of GW will benefit from the formation rules? Mainly the one that subtract BS by 1

Saythings wrote:The Command Squad/Cents is his 1850 list. We don't play a lot of 1500 as we mostly play with Nova/ITC rules.

What does Bedford use? From what I read, he never posted his own army list. Could be squeezed in there somewhere.

What allows you to do 2+ or 3+ FNPs? The new Iron Hands supplement with Libby Conclave?

Edit: @Darkness, it was mentioned before and I repeated in this post, but Nova/ITC. We (my friends and I) don't play "standard" book missions; but both Nova and ITC are pretty "standard" in regards to the BRB. Albeit, ITC more closely represents the BRB missions. You make it seem like a Deathstar can't win standard book missions though, which is interesting

my buddy(Bedford) runs a relatively 'friendly' list of most mech guard. 4-5 russ chassis, 2 wyverns etc. And yes, here's how you get to that 2+ or 3+ FnP: Iron Hands +1 so you're at 4+ when joined to the ravenwing command squad with apothecary. Another +1 to any Iron Hands models that are within 12" of another Iron Hands IC, so now we're at the 3+ that the librarians will have. Gorgon's Chain on the chapter master is another +1, that's how he gets his 2+ at which the ITC caps it. He could get lucky and roll the warlord trait that would give him another +1(effectively making it a 1+? lol). If you were to cast endurance on said squad, all Iron Hand ICs would have a 2+ FnP.

DarknessEternal wrote:I"m not saying a deathstar can't win a standard mission.

I'm saying an army that consists entirely of one deathstar is trivially easy to beat at a standard mission.

How so? This unit has an insane amount of killing and staying power. If you're not tabled by turn 4, I'll split off ICs and grab or contest objectives. Book missions are actually a lot easier for a deathstar list to win on than the modified ITC missions, since you score the objectives only at the end of the game. This let's a deathstar literally focus on nothing but killing for the first 4 turns of the game.

SonsofVulkan wrote:

LinkXx wrote:
The list that my friend here is talking about is as follows:

Company of the Great Wolf detachment

HQ:

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Wolf Guard Battle Leader / Thunderwolf / Runic Armour / Power Fist / Storm Shield

Elites:

Servitor

Servitor

Fast Attack:

Drop Pod


Space Wolves Heralds of the Great Wolf formation detachment

Iron Priest / Thunderwolf / Tempest Hammer
Rune Priest / ML1 / Space Marine Bike / Rune Axe
Wolf Priest / Space Marine Bike


Space Marines Librarius Conclave(White Scars Chapter Tactics) formation detachment

Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Stave
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe
Librarian ML2 / Space Marine Bike / Force Axe


Total: 1500

It's a literal 1 unit army that can break off 8 ICs as needed. The Heralds of the Great Wolf have a bunch of nasty special abilities. All the heralds have IWND, you can choose to ignore the first failed saving throw per herald per phase, and enemies shooting at the unit subtract 1 from their ballistic skill. You also get to re-roll to see who goes first or add 1 to your seize the the initiative roll. So with look out sirs you can quite easily literally disregard 3 wounds to the unit per phase, which adds up. Most of the time enemies shoot at BS3, so there goes your need for invisibility. If you do take a wound on a herald, they might get it back with IWND. And now with the new SM powers your saves look something like 2+/3++ with re-roll and a 6+ FnP(sometimes 4+ if you decide to roll endurance). If there's an ID wound you just don't feel like taking, you look out sir onto a herald and ignore it.

I can also quite easily get off a turn 1 charge with the electrodisplacement power, which is why there is a drop pod in the list for the servitor to ride in.


As to how to beat it... that's a little harder for me to say. I obviously built it so that wouldn't happen, but outplaying the list itself to win the mission is probably one of the better ways to go. Not much this list fears when it comes to enemy models. knights, wraithknights and surges are probably the only thing that could seriously dent the unit(if they survive to stomp and roll that 6).

Other ICs attached to the Herald of GW will benefit from the formation rules? Mainly the one that subtract BS by 1

Other ICs only benefit directly from the -1BS while shooting at the UNIT while they are attached to said unit, as they become that unit. ITWND only applies to the actual heralds, as does the ignore the first failed saving throw per phase per herald. You have to look out sir onto the heralds to make use of that special ability.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I"m not saying a deathstar can't win a standard mission.

I'm saying an army that consists entirely of one deathstar is trivially easy to beat at a standard mission.

Check out the battle report that FLG did with pretty much the same list. It looks unbeatable

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv/v/61664799

I actually haven't tried it with electrodisplacement yet. Seems a bit overkill against most armies. But it's there if needed!

Space Elf Pirates with Magic to put them back in reserve each turn

I can beat the deathstar when I bring my Renegades of Vraks list with fearless zombie tarpits + lots of firepower + tzeentch daemons hiding in the back + allied CSM for the death of kasyr lutien rhino.

Zombies form a wall in front, lots of psychic death gives me chance to deny unit buffs, and then once the tarpit begins I summon 20-30 daemonettes a turn to throw into the combat + I use my ordnance tyrant to keep dropping 4 wyverns into the combat on top of him.

But I run a super unique and niche list, and I think most people will just fold before a super-allies psychic-buffed deathstar. My best advice is to run ITC at tournaments so you can at least drop templates and stomps on an invisible unit.

D weapons or stomps

 Virules wrote:
I can beat the deathstar when I bring my Renegades of Vraks list with fearless zombie tarpits + lots of firepower + tzeentch daemons hiding in the back + allied CSM for the death of kasyr lutien rhino.

Zombies form a wall in front, lots of psychic death gives me chance to deny unit buffs, and then once the tarpit begins I summon 20-30 daemonettes a turn to throw into the combat + I use my ordnance tyrant to keep dropping 4 wyverns into the combat on top of him.

But I run a super unique and niche list, and I think most people will just fold before a super-allies psychic-buffed deathstar. My best advice is to run ITC at tournaments so you can at least drop templates and stomps on an invisible unit.

How? They can HnR 3D6 or 4D6(Ravenwing version) out of combat towards your backfield, and next thing you know your support units are toast.