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For a forum so critical, its odd to see people still refer to "Hammernators" as better than even tactical Terminators. Storm Shields do nothing, if people take the sensible option and kill them with rate of fire with small arms fire. Thunder Hammers shouldn't do anything either, because pretty much anything can outrun them, and if it didn't, the shots, overwatch shots and assault phase attacks will wipe out most of the unit anyway. Giving them a Land Raider makes them more expensive than pretty much anything. Tactical Terminators may not have ideal firepower, but they can still do something that doesn't rely on the enemy not walking away.

Because Hammernators at least can't just get splattered by a single AP2 small blast/couple AP2 shots?

Both tacs and hammers can be drowned in small arms fire, but directing AP2 at them isnt an instant "make your points back" button.

Tyranno wrote:
For a forum so critical, its odd to see people still refer to "Hammernators" as better than even tactical Terminators. Storm Shields do nothing, if people take the sensible option and kill them with rate of fire with small arms fire. Thunder Hammers shouldn't do anything either, because pretty much anything can outrun them, and if it didn't, the shots, overwatch shots and assault phase attacks will wipe out most of the unit anyway. Giving them a Land Raider makes them more expensive than pretty much anything. Tactical Terminators may not have ideal firepower, but they can still do something that doesn't rely on the enemy not walking away.

TH/SS Terminators serve one purpose, and thats to draw fire. They are very hard to kill because of their 2+ and their 3++ any time the get into combat its almost guaranteed they are going to take out some models.

So you have a heavy unit that needs to be dealt with or else its going to ruin your day.

Additionally you can mix 2 lightning claws in there and sacrifice some suitability for heavy damage.

I would say they are more useful then just normal tac terminators though, but it depends on your army really.

Because of the proliferation of Ap2 / Grav weapons.

Tyranno wrote:
For a forum so critical, its odd to see people still refer to "Hammernators" as better than even tactical Terminators. Storm Shields do nothing, if people take the sensible option and kill them with rate of fire with small arms fire.

Because trying to kill 2+sv units with small arms fire really isn't as effective as that. Yeah, that Storm Shield is useless if I toss 180 lasgun shots, or 90 BS4 Bolter shots, at 5 Hammernators...but ah...that's not typically an easy or effective option.

If I'm playing Eldar and have BS4 Scatterbikes, then that's an easier option (though Scatterlasers aren't really small arms fire either...). But otherwise? Bringing sufficient small arms fire to bear really isn't all as practical as people make it out to be when dealing with 2+ sv units, because it's exactly what such units are most resilient against.

Thunder Hammers shouldn't do anything either, because pretty much anything can outrun them, and if it didn't, the shots, overwatch shots and assault phase attacks will wipe out most of the unit anyway.

That depends on what you're throwing them at doesn't it? I mean, yeah, if you're having them DS into the middle of a Tau gunline and try and charge into where Supporting Fire gets you tons of Overwatch blowback, then that'll be an issue. If you can isolate a target like a Riptide however, or gang-bang a Daemon Prince with them, they're rather effective.

Giving them a Land Raider makes them more expensive than pretty much anything. Tactical Terminators may not have ideal firepower, but they can still do something that doesn't rely on the enemy not walking away.

And they die twice as fast to the gobs of AP2 firepower out there that's almost as numerous as the small arms fire shots they're likely to face in armies these days.

Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

EH i agree to a point, but a lot of the weapons the chaos have should be old weapons, like i think they should have access to power scyths and stuff like that

If you're directing all your small arms fire at Hammernators, they're doing their job. They can survive a surprising amount of small arms, just like Tac terminators, but as others have said, you can't just point AP2 weapons at them and remove them from the table.

A regular opponent of mine would always drop hammernators next to my imperial guard blob that bubble wrapped my tanks/artillery. If I didn't fire everything I had into them, they could easily bog down a 30 man guard squad (including 3 special weapons and 3 heavy weapons) for the whole game, or make them run off the table. If not, they'd probably just get to my tanks eventually.

They're useful as something scary which drops into the back field. Not sure if they're 100% worth their cost, but they're completely better than Tac Terminators.

 Griddlelol wrote:
If you're directing all your small arms fire at Hammernators, they're doing their job. They can survive a surprising amount of small arms, just like Tac terminators, but as others have said, you can't just point AP2 weapons at them and remove them from the table.

A regular opponent of mine would always drop hammernators next to my imperial guard blob that bubble wrapped my tanks/artillery. If I didn't fire everything I had into them, they could easily bog down a 30 man guard squad (including 3 special weapons and 3 heavy weapons) for the whole game, or make them run off the table. If not, they'd probably just get to my tanks eventually.

They're useful as something scary which drops into the back field. Not sure if they're 100% worth their cost, but they're completely better than Tac Terminators.

wish TH/SS went back to costing 5 points a model not 10

I wish terminators didn't cost so much or if they kept them the same cost and just game them a 2nd wound. S8 would still instant death them but an antitank weapon should kill most infantry in one shot anyways.

They aren't special - they are considered especially bad. Technically - tactical terminators are better. They cost less and have a relentless heavy weapon - too bad it's just 1 heavy per 5 which is one of their core issues. Really...terminators should each be allowed to carry a heavy.

Probably because they are good at smacking about big stompy things that usually smash other things in close combat. They are terrible against light infantry which pelt them with volume of fire and trading cost effectively. They are basically the rock to a vehicle/MC's scissors but are bad against paper being volume of fire shooting. Unfortunately now 40k has become less of a rock, paper, scissors game as everything is basically becoming titanium power sheers with a rock hammer attachment.

That being said I have a bit of a soft spot for the Arjac's Shield Brethren (aka the Hammerbros) with their T5. Sadly for SW terminators they are basically outclassed by Wulfen.

Because i like my Deathstar of 5 BA Hammernators with Thulsa Kane and a Sanguinary Priest In a Stormraven with a Librarian Dreadnought?

Previously they were relatively cheap for how hard it would be to put them down. They also have thunder hammers, meaning that they're quite effective against any targets they can catch. However they recently got a point increase across the board and especially in the SW army there's two clearly superior alternatives (TWC that have more survivability and more options, and Wulfen who just excel at everything they do, for cheaper).

two words.. distraction carnifex

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

With the grav gun supposedly being so rare in the fluff I wish they would have made it a special weapon that was 1 per army that only a character could take. But of course loyalist players would create a new ocean with their tears if this were to ever happen. But Games workshop has been know to completely remove stuff from the game like Mantle of the Laughing God, various special characters from IG, Pariahs from necrons and I am sure lots of other stuff. I know eldar guardians used to have other heavy weapons they could carry but they got rid of that a while ago too. Unfortunately without grav spam there would be no reason for centurions and so GW would never be able to sell them again So I don't see this happening even though it makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the world of 40K rare means you have an armory of millions of them just ready to go at a moments notice.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They aren't special - they are considered especially bad. Technically - tactical terminators are better. They cost less and have a relentless heavy weapon - too bad it's just 1 heavy per 5 which is one of their core issues. Really...terminators should each be allowed to carry a heavy.

Absolutely untrue about the first point. Adding the Heavy Weapon is about the same as 3 TH/SS. That isn't cheaper. In addition to taking more AP2 power to kill, the Sergeant isn't struck with a lousy Power Sword.

 Xerics wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

With the grav gun supposedly being so rare in the fluff I wish they would have made it a special weapon that was 1 per army that only a character could take. But of course loyalist players would create a new ocean with their tears if this were to ever happen. But Games workshop has been know to completely remove stuff from the game like Mantle of the Laughing God, various special characters from IG, Pariahs from necrons and I am sure lots of other stuff. I know eldar guardians used to have other heavy weapons they could carry but they got rid of that a while ago too. Unfortunately without grav spam there would be no reason for centurions and so GW would never be able to sell them again So I don't see this happening even though it makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the world of 40K rare means you have an armory of millions of them just ready to go at a moments notice.

Get rid of MCs with 2+ and all GMCs and that would be fine.

Eh, MC's with 2+ saves on its own is one thing. The problem is when they have strong overlapping saves and stuff like FNP on top of that with more than 4 wounds. Nobody had problems with 2+sv Hive Tyrants or Tyrannofexes because they didnt really have anything after you punched the armor, its when you get a Riptide running around with a potential 3++ and FNP to boot that problems come into play. If Riptides were W4, had no FNP access, and their invul was capped at 5+, they wouldnt be the problem they are.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

I strongly disagree with the concept of "Chaos should have everything Loyalist have". One, they no longer have a steady influx of supplies, manpower, and support from the Imperium and Mechanicus. Replacing losses should be much much more difficult for traitor chapters (non-heresy at the least) because they no longer have access to stable genetic material, and Mechanicus resources (both their labs and their forges). To replace losses, they have to find a Fabius Bile type that can mimic the process, and even then, its usually not very stable. Then they have to find a Dark Mechanicus resource to replace worn out or lost equipment, and again, its normally not the same stuff. Last I heard, the various forces of Chaos don't exactly get along with each other, so its not like new traitor chapters are welcomed to the Eye of Terror with open arms. I personally think that CSM should have a sub-standard marine unit to represent those new marines created with the Chaos-y processes, less stable, less well trained (but cheaper in points)....maybe like Scout level only in power armour but with some form of mutation or random stat.

Two, when a chapter turns to Chaos, its normally a pretty disruptive thing. Its rarely a scenario where the entire chapter just packs up and heads off to the Eye intact. If they are found out by the Imperium, they normally have to fight off some serious forces in order to escape to the Eye. Sometimes only a portion of the chapter turns as a part of a fleet gets lost in the Warp, so again, its not always the entire chapter with all resources intact. Then there is the scenario when its not the entire chapter turning, there is likely some infighting like the legions had.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

I strongly disagree with the concept of "Chaos should have everything Loyalist have". One, they no longer have a steady influx of supplies, manpower, and support from the Imperium and Mechanicus.

For Renegades this might be true, but the traitor legions took half the AdMech with them, have tons of their own worlds and Empires in many cases, and are unbound by physical reality or the restrictions of the Imperium.

They shouldnt have *some* access to this stuff, or equivalents.

Where are you seeing all these suggestions here that taking Terminators of any kind is a good idea?

I agree that CSM shouldn't have the same stuff as loyalists, but not because of any fluff reason. It's cuz if I wanted to play space marines, I'll play space marines. Chaos should be different (although this doesn't mean it should be worse!). There should be some familiarity seen within the CSM armies that you get that Uncanny Valley effect, where you sorta see the heroic space marines they use to be, but warped just beyond recognition.

Plus Chaos has Mark of Tzeentch right now. A 4++ on terminators feels more "balanced" than a 3++ (which I think shouldn't exist at all).

TH/SS ternies are priced about right. Terminators as standard are overcosted, so getting 45 points worth of goodies for 10 pts and making them more resilient against Ap2 weapons is a bargain.

Not as good as other options in the book, but they are fair

Quick answer: They are NOT good.

As others have said, with grav in every SM list, Termis in general are terrible. (It feels like) Everything ignores their 2+, so all they are left with is their invuln. When you play against necron wraith with their 3++ standard, along with the 4+++ RP (from the formation) you see what Termis were supposed to be.

They were actually good back in 5th edition, but that was a long time ago (and in a galaxy far, far away...)

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

I strongly disagree with the concept of "Chaos should have everything Loyalist have". One, they no longer have a steady influx of supplies, manpower, and support from the Imperium and Mechanicus.

For Renegades this might be true, but the traitor legions took half the AdMech with them, have tons of their own worlds and Empires in many cases, and are unbound by physical reality or the restrictions of the Imperium.

They shouldnt have *some* access to this stuff, or equivalents.

Except for the original legions didn't take "half" of everything. Half of the legions turned, yes, but then they had to purge the loyalist elements from their ranks (for some of these, this was not an insignificant amount). Meanwhile, the AdMech was tearing itself apart, so again, not exactly half and half, more like a quarter per side after the dust settled on Mars.

Then there was the actual war itself, which took its toll on both sides. Depending on what fluff you read, traitor forces were hunted all across the galaxy before they settled into the Eye of Terror. At which point, they promptly turned on themselves, again lessening their numbers and resources.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that CSM should be weaker than Loyalist, I just think they should be vastly different at this point. CSM don't follow the same recruitment process, the same crafting process, or the same sort of organized training. They don't carefully cultivate their own chapter geneseed, they don't carefully screen out recruits...they take whatever they can find, and make do. They should be wilder, less refined, and have vastly different wargear, vehicles, tactics and army structure. After all, as you said, they don't usually operate in the same physical reality that the Imperium does, so why would they have the same equipment and warriors?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Unfortunately you can't take a TH/SS on chaos terminators which is dumb... Everything Loyalists have chaos should have too because there have been chaos marines for a very long time. Everytime they retcon the story to give marines new weapons chaos should have access to the same weapons.

kinda? I think they should have thunder hammers, but not Storm shields as those were post-heresy. Yeah, CSM could loot some, but honestly how many storm shields would you really have since they are rare even in regular marine chapters

As many as they want? Considering in the lore Grav Guns are super rare as well...

I strongly disagree with the concept of "Chaos should have everything Loyalist have". One, they no longer have a steady influx of supplies, manpower, and support from the Imperium and Mechanicus.

For Renegades this might be true, but the traitor legions took half the AdMech with them, have tons of their own worlds and Empires in many cases, and are unbound by physical reality or the restrictions of the Imperium.

They shouldnt have *some* access to this stuff, or equivalents.

Except for the original legions didn't take "half" of everything. Half of the legions turned, yes, but then they had to purge the loyalist elements from their ranks (for some of these, this was not an insignificant amount). Meanwhile, the AdMech was tearing itself apart, so again, not exactly half and half, more like a quarter per side after the dust settled on Mars.

Then there was the actual war itself, which took its toll on both sides. Depending on what fluff you read, traitor forces were hunted all across the galaxy before they settled into the Eye of Terror. At which point, they promptly turned on themselves, again lessening their numbers and resources.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that CSM should be weaker than Loyalist, I just think they should be vastly different at this point. CSM don't follow the same recruitment process, the same crafting process, or the same sort of organized training. They don't carefully cultivate their own chapter geneseed, they don't carefully screen out recruits...they take whatever they can find, and make do. They should be wilder, less refined, and have vastly different wargear, vehicles, tactics and army structure. After all, as you said, they don't usually operate in the same physical reality that the Imperium does, so why would they have the same equipment and warriors?

I would agree that their equipment and gear should be different fluff wise and in some ways on the tabletop... but why should a chaos marine not get a 3++ through some sort of sorcery or blessing of khorne protecting one of his most brutal warriiors. is a regular psyche can grant a +1 to inv save or cover or even rerolling saves imagine what the favor of a chaos god would grant. functionally on the tabletop though sure there should be differences but saying that codex marines are better trained and more disciplined is sort of absurd. A slaneesh disciple would always be seeking perfection, a Khorne marine would always want to be stronger, a tzeench mairne would want to have flawless tactical planning, and a nurgle marine... would probably just be drunk and happy so maybe you have a point on that one.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I would agree that their equipment and gear should be different fluff wise and in some ways on the tabletop... but why should a chaos marine not get a 3++ through some sort of sorcery or blessing of khorne protecting one of his most brutal warriiors. is a regular psyche can grant a +1 to inv save or cover or even rerolling saves imagine what the favor of a chaos god would grant. functionally on the tabletop though sure there should be differences but saying that codex marines are better trained and more disciplined is sort of absurd. A slaneesh disciple would always be seeking perfection, a Khorne marine would always want to be stronger, a tzeench mairne would want to have flawless tactical planning, and a nurgle marine... would probably just be drunk and happy so maybe you have a point on that one.

While I agree that some things that function similar to loyalist gear should be available and technically they are in most respects, I don't agree with your summary of the various cults. Slaanesh cultists seeking perfection? You are confusing Slaanesh cultists with pre-heresy Emperor's Children here. Ultimately, Slaanesh is all about stimulation of the senses. Sure, in some, this may manifest itself in seeking perfection in a certain element of life, be it art or conquest, but Noise Marines are largely addicted to the noise and exhilaration of battle. This wouldn't necessarily make them better warriors, more eager and fearless sure, but not necessarily better. Remember, the Emperor's Children sat out the attack on Terra because they were too busy getting high to bother. Not exactly the most disciplined lot

Khorne marines are called Berzerkers for a reason. Disciplined warfare is not their strong suit, although I do feel that more current fluff tends to focus on this element of Khorne and ignores the whole over-all martial excellence he should represent.

Tzeentch marines should have access to better planning, given their scrying ways, but that doesn't equal finely-tuned tactical training on the battlefield. There is a difference between knowing EXACTLY what your opponent will do because the dark gods chose to show you the future, and being able to adapt to sudden changes on the battlefield through trained discipline. Of course, on the flip side, Tzeentch and his cronies may decide to show a completely false future just to feth with their mortal thralls. This is why I like many of the more random elements of Chaos.

Nurgle marines just want to share the loving embrace of Papa Nurgle.

For the record, I do actually play Chaos in addition to Crimson Fists, so I'm not trying to poo-poo all over Chaos Marines. I have a large Chaos Daemon army and a Khorne Daemonkin army. This conversation is probably best suited for a different thread since its monstrously off topic