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Models being part of a chapter is defined in Codex: Space Marines as a model with Chapter Tactics of a specific Chapter.

So an Ultramarines Sternguard would be a Sternguard with Chapter Tactics(Ultramarines).

Vehicles don't belong to a Chapter, but with the update, it clarifies that not all models in a detachment needs to have Chapter Tactics, which was what was unclear before. Technically, before, RAW, you could not have any models without Chapter Tactics in a Space Marines detachment.

However, there is no permission or change of the definition for an 'Imperial Fists/Salamanders/etc' model being anything other than a model with Chapter Tactics(Imperial Fists). Only models with Chapter Tactics get the benefit, as they are the only ones defined as 'Chapter' models.

Page 338 digital codex:
"'All models drawn from a given chapter benefit from that Chapter's Chapter Tactics rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter."

Why did GW give Captain Lysander three Invulnerable saves if he can only ever use one of them? Should we change the rules to allow him to use all three? GW gives models rules for fluff reasons, even if they can't use those rules. This is one of those instances.

But Ghaz it doesn't say that anywhere in the rules. You're trying to infer something not thete.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Models being part of a chapter is defined in Codex: Space Marines as a model with Chapter Tactics of a specific Chapter.

It is in my opinion that the new rule this thread is about is expanding this definition to be beyond that, though. In as much as a detachment can be defined as associated in such a manner, and the models inside are defined by the detachment's definition, at any rate.

P.S. It IS limited to just what is on this page, though. Without more context provided from the rest of the book, it is difficult to be more accurate in this case.

And before anyone thinks that I may be too favorable to Codex Marines, I've dropped them a while back, and been working with Necrons for over a year and a half now.

durango wrote:
But Ghaz it doesn't say that anywhere in the rules. You're trying to infer something not thete.

No I'm not. The rules clearly allow a model to only take a single saving throw (Models With More Than One Save, pg. 38). Its the people who are trying to claim that an Imperial Fist Rhino can make use of Bolter Drill that are trying to infer something that's not there. What's not there is that a Rhino doesn't meet the requirement of being an 'Imperial Fists model' as specified by the rules.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Models being part of a chapter is defined in Codex: Space Marines as a model with Chapter Tactics of a specific Chapter.

It is in my opinion that the new rule this thread is about is expanding this definition to be beyond that, though. In as much as a detachment can be defined as associated in such a manner, and the models inside are defined by the detachment's definition, at any rate.

P.S. It IS limited to just what is on this page, though. Without more context provided from the rest of the book, it is difficult to be more accurate in this case.

And before anyone thinks that I may be too favorable to Codex Marines, I've dropped them a while back, and been working with Necrons for over a year and a half now.

IIRC the Scarblade SF also calls itself a "White Scars detachment" yet noone argued for their CTs to apply to Rhinos, same for the Talon one.

There's a definition in the Codex, and unless specifically overridden by the supplement that definition holds true. There's nothing - outside of "but they gain the rule from a blanket statement" - to indicate that is how it is meant to work differently in the supplement. Going by that way of arguing you pretty much HAVE to give IH vehicles IWND. "Why else would they say "vehicles" instead of dreadnoughts, right?"

 Charistoph wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Models being part of a chapter is defined in Codex: Space Marines as a model with Chapter Tactics of a specific Chapter.

It is in my opinion that the new rule this thread is about is expanding this definition to be beyond that, though. In as much as a detachment can be defined as associated in such a manner, and the models inside are defined by the detachment's definition, at any rate.

P.S. It IS limited to just what is on this page, though. Without more context provided from the rest of the book, it is difficult to be more accurate in this case.

And before anyone thinks that I may be too favorable to Codex Marines, I've dropped them a while back, and been working with Necrons for over a year and a half now.

Imperial Fists and Salamanders have some of the worst chapter tactics in the book, so I can understand hoping for this, but the language in the supplement doesn't contradict the codex, therefore only models with Chapter Tactics are considered Chapter models.

All the change in wording did was clarify that you were indeed allowed to have models without Chapter Tactics in a detachment. Previously, by extremely strict RAW, you couldn't have a vehicle of any kind in a battleforged Marine army.

Except it doesn't do that though, because you're still required by Codex: Space Marines to draw every model in the Detachment from the same Chapter.

nekooni wrote:IIRC the Scarblade SF also calls itself a "White Scars detachment" yet noone argued for their CTs to apply to Rhinos, same for the Talon one.

There's a definition in the Codex, and unless specifically overridden by the supplement that definition holds true. There's nothing - outside of "but they gain the rule from a blanket statement" - to indicate that is how it is meant to work differently in the supplement. Going by that way of arguing you pretty much HAVE to give IH vehicles IWND. "Why else would they say "vehicles" instead of dreadnoughts, right?"

Crazyterran wrote:Imperial Fists and Salamanders have some of the worst chapter tactics in the book, so I can understand hoping for this, but the language in the supplement doesn't contradict the codex, therefore only models with Chapter Tactics are considered Chapter models.

All the change in wording did was clarify that you were indeed allowed to have models without Chapter Tactics in a detachment. Previously, by extremely strict RAW, you couldn't have a vehicle of any kind in a battleforged Marine army.

I disagree. But I understand where you are both coming from. I just chock it up to how I perceive the interactions of the concepts and the language of the paragraph. I am totally admitting that this is HIWPI and allow others to play it. I am not an English major, so I cannot get in to the language construction to define it for myself, much less for you all.

In the supplement Ironstone in IH affects dreadnoughts and TANKS so how else would you interpret detachment rules?

Friendly Clan Raukaan Tanks and Walkers within 6" of the bearer pass their It Will Not Die rolls on a 4+. If this roll is a 6, the Ironstone also repairs a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result that the vehicle suffered earlier in the battle (controlling player’s choice).

'Clan Raukaan Tanks and Walkers' means 'Tanks and Walkers in a Clan Raukaan Detachment'. There are no 'Clan Raukaan' Chapter Tactics. It does not make them 'Iron Hands models' as given by the Chapter Tactics rules in Codex Space Marines.

 Ghaz wrote:

Friendly Clan Raukaan Tanks and Walkers within 6" of the bearer pass their It Will Not Die rolls on a 4+. If this roll is a 6, the Ironstone also repairs a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result that the vehicle suffered earlier in the battle (controlling player’s choice).

'Clan Raukaan Tanks and Walkers' means 'Tanks and Walkers in a Clan Raukaan Detachment'. There are no 'Clan Raukaan' Chapter Tactics. It does not make them 'Iron Hands models' as given by the Chapter Tactics rules in Codex Space Marines.

That supplement was written and published for the previous SM Codex, in which Iron Hands Chapter Tactics explicitly granted IWND to their rides. The supplement rule buffed this, the current space marine codex removed the special provision for IH rides. Ergo the Clan Raukaan rule is irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

No, not Clan Raukan. I'm fully aware the old supplement got superseded by the new codex and did not play tanks with IWND.

The Ironstone is in the Angels of Death supplement now; and still says dreadnoughts and tanks. This combined with the new wording of the detachment bonuses, it's a strong argument for IWND applies to tanks.

At any rate, this was one of the popular FAQs in the recent facebook thing, so I am expecting something official soon. This would be a relevant precedent for the Imperial Fists bolter drill as well.

Given GW's penchant for the copy and paste, I'm going to assume the wording now looks something like this:

Friendly Iron Hands Tanks and Walkers within 6" of the bearer pass their It Will Not Die rolls on a 4+. If this roll is a 6, the Ironstone also repairs a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result that the vehicle suffered earlier in the battle (controlling player’s choice).

Its the same result as above. 'Iron Hands Tanks and Walkers' means 'Tanks and Walkers in an Iron Hands Detachment'. Just because a Rhino is covered by this rule does not make it an 'Iron Hands model' as defined by the Chapter Tactics rules in Codex Space Marines.

 Kenny P wrote:
At any rate, this was one of the popular FAQs in the recent facebook thing, so I am expecting something official soon. This would be a relevant precedent for the Imperial Fists bolter drill as well.

Actually no.
If in new FAQ they will allow IWND for vehicles without CT rule it will ONLY address problem with Codex: Space Marines Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands).
Chapter Tactics and additional rules for models with CT rule still is very clear:
"The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter. "
No way that Rhino can use Bolter Drill. Period. Once again - according to C:SM Chapter Tactics rule.

Wording in AoD supplement is really unfortunate and in no way negates C:SM CT rule, but as we can see IT ALREADY NEEDS A FAQ, but it is too late and it will not be addressed anytime soon.

See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

It mentions Bolter Drill and Seige Masters. Given by the -Detachment- Rule, -NOT- By the Chapter Tactics special rule.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

It mentions Bolter Drill and Seige Masters. Given by the -Detachment- Rule, -NOT- By the Chapter Tactics special rule.

Please read the 'Bolter Drill' rule as to who it applies to and then read the Chapter Tactics rule to determine what the rules consider an 'Imperial Fists model'.

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

Oh, really?

Imperial Fists Detachment
Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists. An Imperial Fists Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment. Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Sure looks like it to me.

 Charistoph wrote:

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

Oh, really?

Imperial Fists Detachment
Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists. An Imperial Fists Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment. Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Sure looks like it to me.

The detachment Requires all units with Chapter Tactics special rules to be drawn from Imperial Fists, meaning you can't include Tigerus, Vulkan, or other dedicated Special characters in this detachment otherwise it is Not an Imperial Fists Detachment. - that is how you build an Imperial Fists Detachment.

Once built the to fulfill this requirement for the detachment, the detachment special rules do not mention Chapter Tactics as a Requirement for Bolter Drill or Seige master.

The Detachment then receives - Special rules: Bolter Drill and Seige Masters.

Not the detachment receives - Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

Oh, really?

Imperial Fists Detachment
Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists. An Imperial Fists Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment. Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Sure looks like it to me.

The detachment Requires all units with Chapter Tactics special rules to be drawn from Imperial Fists, meaning you can't include Tigerus, Vulkan, or other dedicated Special characters in this detachment otherwise it is Not an Imperial Fists Detachment. - that is how you build an Imperial Fists Detachment.

Once built the to fulfill this requirement for the detachment, the detachment special rules do not mention Chapter Tactics as a Requirement for Bolter Drill or Seige master.

The Detachment then receives - Special rules: Bolter Drill and Seige Masters.

Not the detachment receives - Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

Again, you're ignoring that Bolter Drill requires the model have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists). You can not ignore that requirement.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

Oh, really?

Imperial Fists Detachment
Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists. An Imperial Fists Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment. Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Sure looks like it to me.

The detachment Requires all units with Chapter Tactics special rules to be drawn from Imperial Fists, meaning you can't include Tigerus, Vulkan, or other dedicated Special characters in this detachment otherwise it is Not an Imperial Fists Detachment. - that is how you build an Imperial Fists Detachment.

Once built the to fulfill this requirement for the detachment, the detachment special rules do not mention Chapter Tactics as a Requirement for Bolter Drill or Seige master.

The Detachment then receives - Special rules: Bolter Drill and Seige Masters.

Not the detachment receives - Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

Again, you're ignoring that Bolter Drill requires the model have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists). You can not ignore that requirement.

I am not ignoring anything as what you claim does not exist,
Word for word from the Chapter Tactics card itself:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fists models can re-roll all To Hit rolls of 1 made with Bolt Pistols, Boltguns, Storm Bolterso, Heavy Bolters and Combi-Weapons firing as Boltguns. This rule also applies to models firing Hellfire, Kraken, Vengeance or Dragonfire rounds - End of rule.

Siege Masters: Imperial Fists models can re-roll armor penetration rolls against buildings that do not result in a glancing hit or penetrating hit, and add 1 to the result when rolling on the Building Damage table. In addition, Imperial Fists Devastator Squads and Centurion Devastator Squads have the Tank Hunter special rules. - End of Rule.

NOWHERE does it require Chapter Tactics to have these rules in the rules themselves. Chapter Tactics is a way to Grant these rules. Two VERY different things.

And what is the definition of an 'Imperial Fists model? From Codex Space Marines:

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

So once again, Bolter Drill requires the model to have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists). Rhinos do not have Chapter Tactics and therefore do NOT benefit from Bolter Drill.

 Ghaz wrote:
And what is the definition of an 'Imperial Fists model? From Codex Space Marines:

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

So once again, Bolter Drill requires the model to have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists). Rhinos do not have Chapter Tactics and therefore do NOT benefit from Bolter Drill.

I would agree with that, if it weren't for the wording in the beginning of that rule that refers to it being explicitly for how you apply Chapter Tactics to a unit.

Plus: Based on the fact that any Angels of Death Detachment that calls for models from X chapter already has their Chapter Tactics built in, so bolter Drill etc gets applied twice?

The whole detachment gets the special rules hence the point of taking the detachment in the first place.

That, or it's just a lay out of the rules for the Chapter, putting all the rules for the Chapter in one place (considering it also adds Centurion Warsuits, a rule from Sentinels of Terra, which have no bearing on the Sternhammer Detachment). There is nothing in the rules for the Sternhammer, Medusa Strike Force, Flameblade Strike Force, etc. that over rule the wording for Chapter Tactics as defined by Codex: Space Marines.

You don't have an actual rules argument, or anything that overrules the definition of Chapter Tactics as laid out in the Codex: Space Marines, other than 'why would they put it twice?'.

We understand where you are coming from, but your interpretation is wrong.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
I would agree with that, if it weren't for the wording in the beginning of that rule that refers to it being explicitly for how you apply Chapter Tactics to a unit.

Plus: Based on the fact that any Angels of Death Detachment that calls for models from X chapter already has their Chapter Tactics built in, so bolter Drill etc gets applied twice?

The whole detachment gets the special rules hence the point of taking the detachment in the first place.

In ordrer to form Imperial Fists Detachment you have to read Chapter Tactics rule because of this statement:

Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists.

You have to read Chapter Tactics Special Rule AND APPLY IT. Without it you are not allowed to create Imperial Fists Detachment.
Now let's see what Chapter Tactics special rule say to us:

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

"The rules". Any rules. From now on, everytime "the rules" say Imperial Fists model it referes to Imperial Fists model with Chapter Tactics Special Rule that is drawn from Imperial Fists Chapter.
What does Bolter Drill rule granted for entire Detachment say?

Imperial Fists models

How "the rules" requires us to read above statement?
Imperial Fists models with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from Imperial Fists Chapter.

Now funny example one:
I want to create standalone Imperial Fists Raptor Wing formation in order to receive Bolter Drill on my Land Speeder and Siege Masters on my StormTalons (because "Imperial Fists models can re-roll armour penetration rolls against buildings"). Well, it is not going to happend because this formation don't have any models with the Chapter Tactics special rule. Therefore it cannot be Imperial Fists detachment (or any Chapter to be precise).
Is this the way the GW want us to give rules to all vehicles in detachment?
Nope, this is not how the rules work and not their intention.
Surely the new wording of Detachment would be totally different if ANY MODELS especially those without CT special rule should have those rules!

Funny example two:
I want to create standalone Ultramarines 10th Company Task Force with 3 Land Speeders Storm as dedicated transports. Is there any rule that allow me to apply Tactical Doctrine to LSS (affected models re-roll "1'")?
No, because UM Detachment is not mentioned in AoD supplement and C:SM Chapter Tactics don't allow to apply it to models without CT special rule.
Is this the way GW want to punish Ultramarines? They have to obey CT restrictions and all other Chapters don't?
How about Imperial Fists? Oh, so they can re-roll rolls of "1" from LSS Heavy Bolters because their vehicles know how Chapter Tactics works?
Is this inconsistency with Chapter rules on purpose?
No, this is not how the rules work and I don't believe this are GW intentions.

Only models with the CT special rule are considered to be that Chapter models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more funny example:
I want to take Imperial Fists Anvil Strike Force Detachment made from:
1 Land Raider Spearhead (Core)
1 Raptor Wing (Aux)
Too bad it cannot be Imperial Fists Detachment. This detachment may never be Imperial Fists. It may never use Bolter Drill, even if, as many may think: "new detachment ruels has nothing to do with Chapter Tactics, and it is fix for broken CT rules"

But once we include one more Auxilary Choice:
1 Techmarine (Aux)
It suddenly becomes Imperial Fists Detachment!
So suddenly every single vehicle in this detachment know Bolter Drill? This is how you think GW fixed Chapter Tactics by allowing entire CT benefits to vehicles?

Still, the only Ultramarine model in above example would be Techmarine, so you may think that vehicles in Ultramarines detachment are far inferior than those in Imperial Fists Detachment...

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:The detachment Requires all units with Chapter Tactics special rules to be drawn from Imperial Fists, meaning you can't include Tigerus, Vulkan, or other dedicated Special characters in this detachment otherwise it is Not an Imperial Fists Detachment. - that is how you build an Imperial Fists Detachment.

Once built the to fulfill this requirement for the detachment, the detachment special rules do not mention Chapter Tactics as a Requirement for Bolter Drill or Seige master.

The rules being attached to the models in the detachment were not what you were addressing, though.

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:See. The fun thing most everyone here is missing, the detachment Rule does not mention Chapter Tactics, at all what so ever, in any form.

The detachment rule is what sets the landscape for the rules that follow.

Ghaz wrote:And what is the definition of an 'Imperial Fists model? From Codex Space Marines:

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

So once again, Bolter Drill requires the model to have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists). Rhinos do not have Chapter Tactics and therefore do NOT benefit from Bolter Drill.

Of course, this is assuming that this rule is also not changed by this supplement so that this first paragraph in the OP is what defines an Imperial Fist model now. Keep in mind, that these rules seem to be rehashing the Chapter Tactics as they are. Why would they do that, then?

 Charistoph wrote:
Keep in mind, that these rules seem to be rehashing the Chapter Tactics as they are. Why would they do that, then?

GW has a long tradition of redundancy in the rules. For example, why would they tell us that no Save can ever be improved beyond a 2+ and then tell us that a saving throw of a 1 always fails in the very next sentence (Maximum Save, pg. 38)? Why are they telling us on page 38 that an Armour Save can't be improved beyond a 2+ when they've already told us that earlier in the rules (Armour Save, pg. 8)?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Keep in mind, that these rules seem to be rehashing the Chapter Tactics as they are. Why would they do that, then?

GW has a long tradition of redundancy in the rules. For example, why would they tell us that no Save can ever be improved beyond a 2+ and then tell us that a saving throw of a 1 always fails in the very next sentence (Maximum Save, pg. 38)? Why are they telling us on page 38 that an Armour Save can't be improved beyond a 2+ when they've already told us that earlier in the rules (Armour Save, pg. 8)?

My point was that there is more to this book than the leaked pages. Keep all this in mind.

 Charistoph wrote:
My point was that there is more to this book than the leaked pages. Keep all this in mind.

I have this book and I don't see any additional rules that would clarify/explain those Detachment rules.
Here is one page of introduction to AoD book rules:
https://warofsigmar.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/blogging/picture5/666/5.jpg

People seem to missing that the AoD suppliment is introducing Decurion-styled, Chapter-specific detachments composed of a mix of generic Space Marine detachments and chapter specific detachments. Normally, you can mix and match Chapters in a single army by simply taking a different detchment for each chapter. With these new AoDecurions, every model with Chapter Tactics must have the same Chaptic Tactic, at which point the entire AoDecurion benefits. That's a change from the SM codex, a change related specifically with using the AoD rules.

GW needs a new term for these Decurions, like "Contingent", so people can be less confused. It's much rasier to think a Contingent is an FoC composed of Detachments and Formations, rather than the current Detachment composed of Detachments mess we have right now. GW needs to use their words! And hire a competent line editor.

SJ