Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Telling me that I have poor target optimization won't make me want to play you more.

Telling me that I have a sub-optimal list won't make me want to play you more.

Ranting about my poor tactics, about other things that I could purchase, etc. will not make me want to play you more.

Calling me a scrub or a complainer will not make me want to play you more.

Taking my requests for imposing restrictions on your army as a way of challenging yourself to make yet another optimal list under those restrictions will not make me want to play you more.

If you want to optimize, min-max, etc., that's perfectly fine.

f you want to agonize over every centimeter of range, every rules detail, over the precise positioning of your units, composition of your units, etc. to maximize your win chances to a t, even to the point of taking practically forever to deploy, that is fine.

But it won't make me want to play you more.

Of course, this goes both ways. If that's the game that you want to play, then you are certainly under no obligation to play against me.

Which, again, is fine. Because the game you are insisting on playing isn't all that fun to me anyway.

It's just tedious.

Topic of discussion:

"You see a lot of these things that I'm putting into the mouth of the min-maxer on this very website, and on other similar websites. The article about "scrubs" comes to mind. The constant cry of 'git gud' by people complaining about various flaws in the Dark Souls games comes to mind."

In point of fact, what spurred this thread was my pointing out to an opponent of mine that a combination of units he had taken had an imbalanced advantage with respect to the composition of my army. [Apocalyptic AP 2 blasts and high volumes of AP3 shots and pie plates]; I run blob marines.

[Effectively, what my opponent did was take my simple request (no wraithknights or bikes) as an opportunity to create yet another optimized, min-maxed list given those restrictions; here, some of you will criticize me for insisting on running blob marines, and you won't even notice the irony in your doing so.]

What ensued was a lengthy lecture on his part about my various tactical mistakes, list flaws, etc.

You see this in the general tendencies on this forum as well as other forums. "What, you can't handle my wraithknight? Git gud, scrub. Spam grav bikes." Or some such nonsense.

Again, in another subsection of dakka forums, I asked a very simple question: boltgun or boltpistol on x unit? I literally asked a question, the format of which was "A or B"? Most people refused to answer the question precisely in the format I gave. "Neither of those, you should..." Not what I asked.

The above is essentially my reply to such things.

What are your thoughts?

This kind of stuff is more suited to a blog, one-sided rants like this aren't seen (understandably) as a very conducive topic for a forum.

 Grimskul wrote:
This kind of stuff is more suited to a blog, one-sided rants like this aren't seen (understandably) as a very conducive topic for a forum.

The topic of discussion is pretty clear, it seems to me.

Would you care to take the defense of the min-maxer?

Traditio wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
This kind of stuff is more suited to a blog, one-sided rants like this aren't seen (understandably) as a very conducive topic for a forum.

The topic of discussion is pretty clear, it seems to me.

Would you care to take the defense of the min-maxer?

Game is deeply flawed. Only fun when played with like minded folk. Don't play with players with diametrically opposed preferences.

Eldarain wrote:Game is deeply flawed. Only fun when played with like minded folk. Don't play with players with diametrically opposed preferences.

Yes. That said, you see a lot of these things that I'm putting into the mouth of the min-maxer on this very website, and on other similar websites. The article about "scrubs" comes to mind. The constant cry of "git gud" by people complaining about various flaws in the Dark Souls games comes to mind.

So you lost and now you are upset?

Its one thing to not want to be a win above everything else competitive player.

It's another thing entirely when you come on here complaining about units you refuse to take the answers for

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So you lost and now you are upset?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its one thing to not want to be a win above everything else competitive player.

It's another thing entirely when you come on here complaining about units you refuse to take the answers for

These are precisely the sorts of things that I mean.

You are the sorts of people I have in mind in the OP.

OP please reformat the initial post to make it clearer just what you want to discuss. As it stands, this thread isn't serving much purpose for discussion.

 motyak wrote:
OP please reformat the initial post to make it clearer just what you want to discuss. As it stands, this thread isn't serving much purpose for discussion.

Agreed. I have reformatted accordingly.

From my perspective you seem to be in a position of being very stubborn and then accusing people of being stubborn (simply put) and thats why you are not enjoying the game. Then you proceed to say its irony for any one to just say you are being but hurt about losing? You already answered your own question, don't play people that are not like minded. The discussion you seem to want to discuss is the take over of people in the lgs and online that jsut want to min/max everything. I don't really know what else you are expecting but something along the lines of bolt pistol vs gun is not really a great question to ask for the following reason, for fluff, or just the feel of your army meaning whether you want as assault or shooty unit is along the lines of what you personally want. You are not asking whats more fluffy or competitive. The answer is self given unless you bring in tactics/ strategy in, in which case yes if those are the worst options of course people are then going to disregard it . You asked whats better and people answered not whatever you just said.

I can't imagine world where the example you gave would make since in a forum with the context you specified. You are not asking hypotheticals in a vacuum, there is also context associated with 40k.

Ozomoto wrote:
I don't really know what else you are expecting but something along the lines of bolt pistol vs gun is not really a great question to ask

It's the question that I asked. "Would a boltgun or a boltpistol be better for this model?"

That's not the question that people actually answered.

You asked whats better and people answered not whatever you just said.

I asked boltgun vs. boltpistol. That was the question.

Well, on the one hand, I sympathize with the OP's position here. He's clearly not enjoying the game - I can get behind that; I'm not enjoying it much either. But I think a lot of the blame and frustration he's throwing around is misplaced. A min-maxer isn't automatically TFG for being a min-maxer or suggesting the "party line" when responding to requests for advice. In fact, many would-be min-maxers (read: those that don't play SM, Eldar, Necrons, or Tau) are in the same boat as the OP, feeling frustrated and dissatisfied after every game.

What we're dealing with here is a problem with the game itself. When it comes right down to it, 40k as a game is not that great. More specifically, it is a game with balance and mechanical problems that are so severe, they outstrip the ability of most "tactics and strategy" to satisfactorily overcome them. And that leads us to where we are now... a game that can only be enjoyed in a fishbowl; a game that has a fundamentally fractured player-base, divided into numerous little pockets of players who agree to play the same way (with the biggest fishbowl being the ITC). And like with fishbowls, the fish in one bowl usually don't like to mix with the fish in another bowl.

Honestly, OP, the answers you're looking for are never going to satisfy you because no amount of tactics and in-game decision making is going to provide you the level of performance increase that you're looking for... that's why people will tell you to change your list.

Think of it this way: If I'm forcing you to clean the floor of the FLGS with a toothbrush, it won't much matter if you have the most efficient movement pattern crawling across the tiles, or if you use an electric toothbrush vs a regular one; it's still going to take you most of the day to finish, and it's gonna be a frustrating and dissatisfying experience regardless. So don't get mad when someone tells you to just bring a mop from home like everyone else... Get mad at the Guy Who insisted that to do the job "correctly," you had to use a toothbrush in the first place.

Just my /2cents

You see, I would understand if you are complaining about games you had to play, or even games you weren't expecting that were more "elite" in nature. But are you really complaining about games your not playing? I mean correct me if wrong but saying to someone "nah I prefer not to play" should kinda be the end of the problem. Rather than "nah I prefer not to play" then writing a 100 or so word thread about your god given right not to play a board game? It's really not hard to do nothing imo.

If you don't want someones opinion, don't ask.

If you don't wanna play a game, don't play

Well, on the one hand, I sympathize with the OP's position here. He's clearly not enjoying the game - I can get behind that; I'm not enjoying it much either. But I think a lot of the blame and frustration he's throwing around is misplaced. A min-maxer isn't automatically TFG for being a min-maxer or suggesting the "party line" when responding to requests for advice. In fact, many would-be min-maxers (read: those that don't play SM, Eldar, Necrons, or Tau) are in the same boat as the OP, feeling frustrated and dissatisfied after every game.

What we're dealing with here is a problem with the game itself. When it comes right down to it, 40k as a game is not that great. More specifically, it is a game with balance and mechanical problems that are so severe, they outstrip the ability of most "tactics and strategy" to satisfactorily overcome them. And that leads us to where we are now... a game that can only be enjoyed in a fishbowl; a game that has a fundamentally fractured player-base, divided into numerous little pockets of players who agree to play the same way (with the biggest fishbowl being the ITC). And like with fishbowls, the fish in one bowl usually don't like to mix with the fish in another bowl.

Honestly, OP, the answers you're looking for are never going to satisfy you because no amount of tactics and in-game decision making is going to provide you the level of performance increase that you're looking for... that's why people will tell you to change your list.

Think of it this way: If I'm forcing you to clean the floor of the FLGS with a toothbrush, it won't much matter if you have the most efficient movement pattern crawling across the tiles, or if you use an electric toothbrush vs a regular one; it's still going to take you most of the day to finish, and it's gonna be a frustrating and dissatisfying experience regardless. So don't get mad when someone tells you to just bring a mop from home like everyone else... Get mad at the Guy Who insisted that to do the job "correctly," you had to use a toothbrush in the first place.

I can get behind that.

The bolt pistol

Completely agreeing with Xca|iber there.

The game isn't totally fair - some units are plain better than others, and some tactics will never make a sub-par list good.

As an example, I take an army of Crisis Suits for a Tau army, and equip them with nothing: no guns, pure melee. According to OP, this list should be able to defeat any other list with the right amount of tactics. This simply isn't possible, without extraordinary luck.
Using real life here (a flawed idea in and of itself), could a single squad of infantry fight and defeat an armoured brigade with no anti-tank weapons of their own? I doubt it.

My main point to the OP - Yes, you are okay to complain about people bringing lists that might utterly defeat yours. But as much as an obligation they have to accommodate you, you have one to them. If you continue to bring lists that are simply ineffective in the current meta, continue to lose. People do want to help you, but you are being remarkably stubborn. Are you completely sure 40k, with all it's imbalance, is the game for you?
And if you're STILL adamant, play Herald of Ruin's Kill Team expansion. Little vehicles, far more balance, and support for marine as footsloggers.

A strange post.
You are angry/fed up/dismayed at the current state of the game balance?
People advising you to ltp is annoying you?
If I have read it right then I totally agree. The games has massive problems, and there are no amount of tactics or in depth knowledge of the mechanics that can over come this.
And the people that tend to advise ltp usually themselves play one of the more powerful forces or play against people who aren't themselves very good which then skews the argument (ie 'well I always beat my mates Eldar with my Chaos space marines')
The answer isn't a good one, find like minded players, which tends to mean you'll end up playing the same opponent all the time.

Stop trying to treat Space Marines like they're Battle Sisters.

It don't work.

If blob marines is what you think is cool then by all means continue, but as you say there are things that will utterly demolish them. MSU spam in a Gladius is what makes plain marines good, not huge units.

Try to get a team game together maybe? If you bring loads of troops and your team mate brings more specialized stuff your team will have better balance.

I choose to play with lists that aren't very good. I have no desire to improve at the game. It's my opponent's responsibility that I enjoy my hobby. He is obliged to change his army list to better suit mine. My army list, however, is built based on what I want to play with, so that's obviously not changing. If he doesn't change the way he's enjoying his hobby for my benefit, he's a bad guy. I'm not, though. I'm wonderful. I'm entitled to other people making compromises, but I shouldn't have to make any.

 Thud wrote:
I choose to play with lists that aren't very good. I have no desire to improve at the game. It's my opponent's responsibility that I enjoy my hobby. He is obliged to change his army list to better suit mine. My army list, however, is built based on what I want to play with, so that's obviously not changing. If he doesn't change the way he's enjoying his hobby for my benefit, he's a bad guy. I'm not, though. I'm wonderful. I'm entitled to other people making compromises, but I shouldn't have to make any.

I hope that was sarcasm, because I took it that way.

This post is HERESY! *BLAM!*

No but tbh, the only thing fun about 40K is making fun lists and playing people that have fun lists. I play a mishmash of randomness in my guard army. I want to use my leman battle tanks even tho they're the worst option right now? well fk it, I like the model I'ma use them.

PPl who optimise their list as if they're heading to a tournament when in reality you're just gonna play a game for fun at your FLGS are bascially the Kanye West equivalent or 40K.

Yes, but then there's complaining about taking a sub-par list and other people not wanting to nerf their lists because you (generally) won't improve yours.

A compromise needs to be made, or you simply won't get games. And I can assure, more people would, in my experience, bring their own top game against a tougher opponent than nerf it against an opponent who won't compromise.

Incidentally, OP, can I see your list? Your standard one.

There's a difference between a scrub and someone who doesn't list build for power.

Scrubs generally use a pretty optimized list(the ones I'm familiar with run Gladius and WK/Scatbike spam) and generally have lots of opinions on how their list is actually garbage and complainers just want to nerf them unfairly. Say, making threads about how fair Gladius, one of the most powerful lists in the game, is, and how OP Tyranids, one of the worst armies in the game, are.

They don't want to make silly lists with random stuff and have fun. They want to reduce the strength of their opponents list until their army always wins.

the_scotsman wrote:
There's a difference between a scrub and someone who doesn't list build for power.

Scrubs generally use a pretty optimized list(the ones I'm familiar with run Gladius and WK/Scatbike spam) and generally have lots of opinions on how their list is actually garbage and complainers just want to nerf them unfairly. Say, making threads about how fair Gladius, one of the most powerful lists in the game, is, and how OP Tyranids, one of the worst armies in the game, are.

They don't want to make silly lists with random stuff and have fun. They want to reduce the strength of their opponents list until their army always wins.

There's also a huge difference between running a 'for fun' Blob Marines vs. running a 'hopeless' Blob Marines style list.

A 'for fun' list, would still include relevant upgrades, such as making sure you have your anti-tank bases covered by taking Melta and/or Gravguns + matching combi-weapon, Grav Cannons, Melta bombs, ect...
A 'hopeless' list instead stubbornly refuses to take anything - just sticking to at most Flamer + Missile launcher on one or two squads, "because that's what's on the box so it has to work because... 'reasons'."

A 'for fun' list can be used under Templar or Space Wolf rules to gain those larger squads of 15+ bodies and better upgrades. However, a 'for fun' list realises that not every single squad has to be 10+ men, and will also include a small number of support elements to help boost the larger front line units.
A 'hopeless' list just stubbornly refuses to include any kind of supports or built-in synergies. It just throws naked 10-man MEQ squads haphazardly at the enemy, and then whines endlessly when 60-80 Guard Infantry mercilessly guns it down.


Basically, while Blob Marines will never be turely "Competitive", they can still be decent vs. any non-optimised force that eschews the most obnoxious power units, (ie: no Scatbikes or Wraithknight + min Wraithguard and/or Warp Spiders for an Eldar army), but only if you still include the basic tools that ANY force needs to play 40k!

I'm a big fan of negotiating lists with your opponent in advance. It sounds like you've tried and that your opponent may or may not have tried to listen. Maybe just try talking to him again?

Telling people to "get good" or what have you really isn't helpful. The people who want to play competitively will do so. The people who don't want to play competitively will just feel alienated and become more likely to stop playing. To me, what you ideally want to do is just talk to your opponents until you're on the same page. This is one of the reasons I have a banshee-centric craftworld Iybraesil list featuring lots of eldar MCs. Some opponents just have more fun against a toned-down list, and I can have fun with such a list so long as it's still interesting to use.

That said, I do wonder if your opponent is being as malicious as you're implying. It sounds like he plays eldar. Eldar aren't particularly known for lots of pie plates, and what AP2 blasts we have are generally small blasts (meaning they usually hit 2 or 3 models tops). Assuming he wasn't using some sort of titan or superheavy I'm not familiar with, I'm guessing those apocolyptic blasts were coming from his farseers, right? Farseers aren't bad, but I'd be curious to know exactly what your opponent brought. At the risk of sounding like I'm telling you to "get good," I suspect there might be a few minor tricks you could incorporate against such a list to improve your odds against his.

To the OP list building is part of the game...it is part of learning to play, it is part of tactics.

Therefore if you have one list that you are dedicated to and will only play said list, with all due respect if this is the case the LTP argument can be used against you, and I am not that guy that throws that term around, I hate it just as much as everyone else because it is so commonly misused.

I completely understand the state of the game, power creep, formations providing free upgrades and rules etc. But you have to understand the meta and your local meta. You cannot make demands for people to play at your level, and even impose restrictions on your opponents, while not be willing to give an inch. If you would like to play the game with people in your meta....you have to play with the generally accepted terms of that meta. You cant stomp your feet, throw a tantrum, demand everyone does things your way, and then cry when you lose. You are going to lose....even if people follow all your demands, play the lists you want them to play on your terms, this is still a game of chance. No amount of tactics and list building can overcome bad dice/hot dice.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


As an example, I take an army of Crisis Suits for a Tau army, and equip them with nothing: no guns, pure melee. According to OP, this list should be able to defeat any other list with the right amount of tactics. This simply isn't possible, without extraordinary luck.

I dont think anyone ever said that trying to use a unit to do something it was never meant to do was achievable with tactics. That is where list building comes into play. If you only want to take marines with bolters into an 1850 game...you cant be upset when you cant blow up tanks with bolters, and cant down MCs with your bolters.

All things considered this is a hobby, and a game. (and a broken one at that) You would be best off to acknowledge that foremost, and if you are not enjoying yourself then perhaps it is time for you to move on.

Even if people have no desire to care about rules-that's fine too. For those people, I generally run my Vostroyan guard army totally WYSIWYG-power sword/plasma pistol sarges, flamer/heavy bolter blob, mortar and Lascanon HWTs and beefy cc command squads in chimeras with maybe a Leman Russ battle tank or two.

Those games are fun, usually focused on infantry trying to beat each other to death, fluffy and nobody cares about winning or losing.

If you expect people to tune down their lists to better fit your own wants, you need to meet them half-way and tune up your list to meet their wants.

Its that simple.

Two-way street. You don't get to dictate to other people what they should and shouldn't do and then act like the victim. Sounds like your opponent did exactly what you asked of him. Step up, compromise, learn to laugh it off. Its a game.

I'd be more concerned by the attitude and personality of my opponent than whatever collection of models they bring that day. I'll take a stomping with a friendly opponent any day over a hard fought win against an donkey-cave.