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'lo there! I've come up with my first 30k army and was wondering what people think of it. The fluff behind this is there were a loyalist word bearers chaplain, dejected after the discovery of their parent chapter's betrayal of their god emperor, decided too take his relatively small task force and launch a suicidal counter crusade against the traitors. However after seeing success they gained momentum, gathering other similarly distraught survivors to their cause, including the rediscovered and unstable Salamander dreadnought Cassian Dracos.

HQ:

Centurion (Word Bearers) [warlord, rite of war “orphans of betrayal”]
- Herald
- Power weapon
- Plasma pistol

Cassian Dracos Reborn

Praetor (iron hands)
- Cataphractii terminator armour
- Chainfist
- Combi weapon

Command squad (iron hands)
- Catahractii terminator armour
- x2 power fists
- chainfist
- flamer


Troops:

Tactical squad (word bearers)
- Artificer armour
- x9 additional combat blades
- Power sword

Tactical squad (word bearers)
- Artificer armour
- x10 additional combat blades


Elites:

Firedrake terminator squad
- x5 thunderhammers + storm shields
[Land raider phobos
- armoured ceramite

Veteran tactical squad (iron hands) [sniper]
- +5 space marines
- +2 heavy bolters

Veteran tactical squad (iron hands) [furious charge]
- Artificer armour
- x5 power weapons
- x5 Volkite serpenta

Contemptor mortis Dreadnought
- two multi meltas


Heavy Support:

Pyroclast squad

Whats the fluff behind a word Bearers leader and iron hand/salamanders units, or is this a min maxed army to take advantage of the units a shattered Legion let's you take?

 Formosa wrote:
Whats the fluff behind a word Bearers leader and iron hand/salamanders units, or is this a min maxed army to take advantage of the units a shattered Legion let's you take?

I put the fluff above list, but essentially he's much like the word bearer in unremembered empire, still loyal to the emperor he thinks is god. He started a crusade of vengance with his smallish task force, hence why core models are word bearers, but was pretty successful. This saw him pick up other loyalists scattered about the place, in this case from istvaan, who join wanting to do some damage against the traitors. The guys joining are an Iron hands praetor who escaped the surface with some now veterans and some elite Salamanders who found and started to follow Cassian, who's gone a bit mad and blood thirsty.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Whats the fluff behind a word Bearers leader and iron hand/salamanders units, or is this a min maxed army to take advantage of the units a shattered Legion let's you take?

I put the fluff above list, but essentially he's much like the word bearer in unremembered empire, still loyal to the emperor he thinks is god. He started a crusade of vengance with his smallish task force, hence why core models are word bearers, but was pretty successful. This saw him pick up other loyalists scattered about the place, in this case from istvaan, who join wanting to do some damage against the traitors. The guys joining are an Iron hands praetor who escaped the surface with some now veterans and some elite Salamanders who found and started to follow Cassian, who's gone a bit mad and blood thirsty.

ah ok, personally I don't like it lol, it needs a bit of fleshing out, as it seems to be a min maxed list, which is fine .

Oddly enough while I don't like your little blurb about the why of it, I would like to read a novel on the subject, as it would be interesting, so basically... more fluff!!!!!

ok on to the list, yeah its a good one, id suggest some way of getting those pyroclasts around, because they die like a fart in the wind in 30k if left out of a transport and they have a very short range on all of their weapons.

 Formosa wrote:

ah ok, personally I don't like it lol, it needs a bit of fleshing out, as it seems to be a min maxed list, which is fine .

Oddly enough while I don't like your little blurb about the why of it, I would like to read a novel on the subject, as it would be interesting, so basically... more fluff!!!!!

ok on to the list, yeah its a good one, id suggest some way of getting those pyroclasts around, because they die like a fart in the wind in 30k if left out of a transport and they have a very short range on all of their weapons.

Fair enough, I get that in a little blurb it may seem a bit stretched as to why they would follow a Word Bearer, but I have been thinking on it myself for a while so I have come up with some ideas. Originally I was going to have Death Guard instead of one of the loyal legions but decided against it as it didn't really suit the idea of a semi-religious crusade + it would be hard to justify having loyalist traitor legion specialist units.

yeah, a rhino would probably be a good idea for them, as when looking at it having sniper on heavy bolters seems a bit redundant, essentially just giving me one extra bolter shot at the loss of 3+ to wound, so I could find the points there.

Yeah, the dropping in of a named character (and a named Dread at that) can't really be covered by any fluff..which just so happens to allow access to some of the best TDA in the game is questionable.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Yeah, the dropping in of a named character (and a named Dread at that) can't really be covered by any fluff..which just so happens to allow access to some of the best TDA in the game is questionable.

Retribution has a section called "shattered legion special characters" in which it says it characters do work and even specifically names Cassian as an appropriate character to use. Cassian was discovered by fellow Salamander Xiaphas Jurr a year after Istvaan V and hence was not only part of a shattered legion but also was amongst Salamanders forces.

Cassian was also an ex chapter master of the Salamanders before Vulkan so it makes sense that he would be surrounded by the best legion forces he could muster. And finally, perhaps the main reason I have these units, they came together in the Salamanders axillary bundle on FW at a slight discount.

30k is the world of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

the problem is your fluff is too weak to remove the smell cheese from the list. Anyone that starts cherry picking the top units (and mixing traitor/loyalists legions and named characters) will have to really step up the fluff game.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but to help you answer these same questions when you drop this list on the table at both casual or event games.

 hisdudeness wrote:
30k is the world of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

the problem is your fluff is too weak to remove the smell cheese from the list. Anyone that starts cherry picking the top units (and mixing traitor/loyalists legions and named characters) will have to really step up the fluff game.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but to help you answer these same questions when you drop this list on the table at both casual or event games.

But I just don't get what is cheesy in this list? I brought Firedrakes?

The word bearers could be replaced by literally any legion, the only reason there being traitor/loyalist mix for fluff reasons and the Iron Hands are the same, having veterans and a generic praetor command squad. I only have two legion specific units and they belong to the named character, if I decided to make the Iron Hands and Word bearers into Salamanders the list would function almost the exact same and a legal Salamanders army. I have no WB or IH legion specific units and the only thing I can see that would be a + is having the Iron Hands -1 strength rule, which isn't exactly a game changer when it's only on 3 squads.

Fair enough, just for me, we need a reason for a word Bearers character to be leading the forces that his Legion betrayed, how they didn't just gun down the word Bearers trying to parley with them.

Talking one of the best characters in the game and one of the best TDA units as his 'honor guard' then mixing in other Legions and you're not seeing the cheese? Why not just run a Full Sally list? There is nothing beyond the pyroclast that would need to be removed.

Then you have a WB Cent leading said named character (with honor guard) and the reason is he has daddy issues? While there is also a IH Preator in this group...that is also being lead by another Legions Cent.

So you have a former Sally chapter master (in a dread with honor guard) and a 'current' IH chapter master (with a command squad) following a company captain? All from different Legions?

The 'this is what I had built or what units I really like' doesn't cut it for fluff.

 Formosa wrote:
Fair enough, just for me, we need a reason for a word Bearers character to be leading the forces that his Legion betrayed, how they didn't just gun down the word Bearers trying to parley with them.

My explanation for this is that at first there weren't loyalist legions with him, he started the crusade, with a purely Word Bearers force to begin. He then was successful in his crusade, managing to destroy traitor forces as he started his own war. As he's a herald he also goes around preaching zealously on behalf of the emperor, and while I get that there was a lot of paranoia around the idea is that the actions speak for themselves. The survivors from Istvaan cling onto what they can, and seeing someone who's successfully fighting for the same cause they are (albeit with a different angle on it) gives them a direction to take, them seeing something that works and joining it. It's also not unheard of for "traitors" to fit in seamlessly with loyalists, just look at Warsmith Dantioch, he was the linchpin of imperium secondus.

I mean look, if you seriously can't see a Word Bearer leading these forces, or if not leading as the moral core, then as I said earlier they can be interchanged with any legion. I just really liked the idea of using them in order to add a bit of a zealous crusade type angle, the idea that he's creating something to sweep others up in as he goes on a mission of almost certain death. It could easily be changed for a Salamanders Herald, one of the new breed of chaplains trained by Nomus Rhy'tan, or a blood angel who in the wake of the signus campaign and the realisation that gods do exists begins the worship of the emperor.

But these ideas don't really grab me as much, and other loyalist legions don't really have a reason for having a herald, leading me to look at the traitors and none really fit the bill for a herald like the word bearers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hisdudeness wrote:
Talking one of the best characters in the game and one of the best TDA units as his 'honor guard' then mixing in other Legions and you're not seeing the cheese? Why not just run a Full Sally list? There is nothing beyond the pyroclast that would need to be removed.

Then you have a WB Cent leading said named character (with honor guard) and the reason is he has daddy issues? While there is also a IH Preator in this group...that is also being lead by another Legions Cent.

So you have a former Sally chapter master (in a dread with honor guard) and a 'current' IH chapter master (with a command squad) following a company captain? All from different Legions?

The 'this is what I had built or what units I really like' doesn't cut it for fluff.

What honour guard? The Firedrakes are occupying a land raider with 10 spaces, they are by themselves, not honour guarding anyone and are filling their own elites slot. And also I literally have to bring multiple legions, it's a shattered legion list.

"daddy issues"? If you want to describe hating his primarch for betraying the emperor, the man who this word bearer worshipped as a god, before performing fratricide as "daddy issues" then yeah, that's why he's doing it.

Also the reason they're following him is because he's a herald. It's something that's beyond rank, he's broken away from his command structures and orders and has begun something based on belief and righteousness. One of the points of the heresy was the rise of new leaders and the fall of others, that's one of the whole points of the retribution book.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:


What honour guard? The Firedrakes are occupying a land raider with 10 spaces, they are by themselves, not honour guarding anyone and are filling their own elites slot. And also I literally have to bring multiple legions, it's a shattered legion list.

"daddy issues"? If you want to describe hating his primarch for betraying the emperor, the man who this word bearer worshipped as a god, before performing fratricide as "daddy issues" then yeah, that's why he's doing it.

Also the reason they're following him is because he's a herald. It's something that's beyond rank, he's broken away from his command structures and orders and has begun something based on belief and righteousness. One of the points of the heresy was the rise of new leaders and the fall of others, that's one of the whole points of the retribution book.

thetallestgiraffe wrote: Cassian was also an ex chapter master of the Salamanders before Vulkan so it makes sense that he would be surrounded by the best legion forces he could muster. And finally, perhaps the main reason I have these units, they came together in the Salamanders axillary bundle on FW at a slight discount.

If that's not the basis of an honor guard, then I'm not sure what is. While the Drakes may not be a formal honor guard...the way you described it sure makes it seem that way.

So two Loyalist chapter masters (one of such great renown that he is allowed to continue his fight as a very powerful dread) just drops rank for a traitor legion Cent?

The fact that you are arguing that you're not doing something, instead of attempting to expand the fluff (which is what I'm trying to get you to do) raises red flags. The general rule of thumb is the more implausible a list is the more fluff needed to make it plausible.

 hisdudeness wrote:

If that's not the basis of an honor guard, then I'm not sure what is. While the Drakes may not be a formal honor guard...the way you described it sure makes it seem that way.

So two Loyalist chapter masters (one of such great renown that he is allowed to continue his fight as a very powerful dread) just drops rank for a traitor legion Cent?

The fact that you are arguing that you're not doing something, instead of attempting to expand the fluff (which is what I'm trying to get you to do) raises red flags. The general rule of thumb is the more implausible a list is the more fluff needed to make it plausible.

Well the basis of an honour guard, as I understand it, is that they exist to protect an important figure, acting as his body guard. The firedrakes will be doing their own thing on the board, and as far as fluff goes Cassian probably wouldn't have a formal bodyguard and wouldn't be acting as a leader, his position as a dreadnought and general mental instability post istvaan V not really lending him to being as much of a leading figure as he was.

And the point is that yeah they would, because the concept of this herald is that he has a vision, someone who is acting and giving direction in times of great uncertainty. One of the great ironies of the post heresy imperium is its reliance on religion, however it is necessary as otherwise the imperium would lack the drive and the backbone to fight the unending war it is embroiled in. With the Istvaan atrocities, back stabbing after backstabbing, the horrendous slaughter seen by both sides, all of the old views and orders were thrown into chaos (hint hint) and everything that worked before was collapsing and no longer working. The idea is that characters, like this Word Bearer Herald, found ways to cling to a concept throughout the turmoil and confusion and channel it into something that could be used to fight back.

In this case the zealous and unwavering belief in the emperor alongside his revulsion at his own legion in the face of this betrayal to the ideals he and his brothers had been fighting and dying for for hundreds of years gave him a clear objective. He took up arms against the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune to fight back with a clear and obvious objective, to wreak vengeance upon his once brothers regardless of the cost. This sudden change in the order of things was something that many commanders couldn't cope with, resulting in their deaths like Ferrus Manus or the Iron Hands commander who Landed a Daemon World and refused to take a hint. After Istvaan the shattered legions were left directionless, looking for some meaning in this new world, nonemoreso than the Ironhands and Salamanders who believed their primarch to be dead. The Retribution book says that shattered legions rely on charisma, vision and sheer force of will, something that this Word Bearer represented as a Herald of the new zealously religious imperium that was to come, this religious angle being what drove not just him but the entire postwar imperium.

A 'vision' from a traitor Legion captain...swaying more experienced leaders of loyalist Legions?

The larger backstory is better...much better. I still don't see the herald being the warlord...more so being a WB. I can see him being the second to the Praetor, giving him the moral support to be the combat leader the group needs. Pretty much doing what chaplains do...leading the mental needs of the flock, while the praetor leads in combat with his vast combat experience.

 hisdudeness wrote:
A 'vision' from a traitor Legion captain...swaying more experienced leaders of loyalist Legions?

The larger backstory is better...much better. I still don't see the herald being the warlord...more so being a WB. I can see him being the second to the Praetor, giving him the moral support to be the combat leader the group needs. Pretty much doing what chaplains do...leading the mental needs of the flock, while the praetor leads in combat with his vast combat experience.

I get that, but the actual table top rules of a herald try to make it somewhere in between. He must be your warlord and gets a rite however he can't fill a compulsory HQ slot. I take that to mean as while he may not govern things in the same sense as a regular commander, it's his drive and his ideas that give them direction.

Man...brushing up on the list of rules you are puling on, I'm more sold on this being fishy fluffwise.

Herald is in the same vein of the Delegatus...an option to take RoW in smaller games. You're at 2.5k. Add in the +1 WS for all models in a 24" bubble and is needed for the Orphans RoW, he starts the cheese.

RoW: Orphans...all Characters get FNP(4+) in challenges (that they must issue/accept), Hatred... Which Cassian will benefit from. More cheese.

Then add the Legion rule of the three...

Shattered Legion list...can cherry pick units based on HQ choices. Added to the above, it is just too much so be held together by fluff.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Man...brushing up on the list of rules you are puling on, I'm more sold on this being fishy fluffwise.

Herald is in the same vein of the Delegatus...an option to take RoW in smaller games. You're at 2.5k. Add in the +1 WS for all models in a 24" bubble and is needed for the Orphans RoW, he starts the cheese.

RoW: Orphans...all Characters get FNP(4+) in challenges (that they must issue/accept), Hatred... Which Cassian will benefit from. More cheese.

Then add the Legion rule of the three...

Shattered Legion list...can cherry pick units based on HQ choices. Added to the above, it is just too much so be held together by fluff.

These seem like pretty small rules to get hung on. + 1 WS ? I could easily bring a primarch at this points cost who would give whole army benefits, and I'm not sure what the benefits of having word bearers or Iron hands are over the Salamanders ability to reroll a dice when taking leadership + extra flamer strength. Yeah, shattered legions CAN cherry pick units, something which I haven't done here, as I said before the only reason there are units other than Salamanders ones being due to fluff.

Hatred for a ws6 dreadnought? Yeah a buff but hardly a game changer, especially considering what I originally wanted to do was to have the After Istvaan rite, which would make vets troops, and instead of WB I'd have RG. To have that RoW you literally MUST have a list containing legions almost identical to mine, what it comes seems is that you generally think there are issues with the rules of a shattered legions army.

I mean sure, I'll debate about whether or not the army works fluffwise as it's important to me, but this seems to be picking at the army just for the fact that it has multiple legions. If I made this a straight shattered legion army by trading the WB for RG those vets would become troops, I'd be trading my tac squads for assault squads as it's more fluffy and ALL my units would have hatred! I've substantially weakened what would've been my army for the sake of the fluff, so really if there's a problem with this list then there must be a problem with the entire shattered legions rules.

A survivors of Isstvan army would make a lot more sense to me. Believe me, the Salamanders and Iron Hands attitude towards Raven Guard is quite different from their attitude towards Word Bearers.

High-ranking IH/Salamander bowing their heads to a WB Centurion just seems illogical, without more explanation.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A survivors of Isstvan army would make a lot more sense to me. Believe me, the Salamanders and Iron Hands attitude towards Raven Guard is quite different from their attitude towards Word Bearers.

High-ranking IH/Salamander bowing their heads to a WB Centurion just seems illogical, without more explanation.

Definitely, I get what you're saying in how fluffwise when it comes to chain of command this sort of alliance would really be pushing it, but that's not really what the setup here his.

But the point is he's more of a spiritual guide, like when you read a novel where they're following a psyker to an objective he's seen in a vision. The difference is this vision is an ideology, something based off of his desire to complete his goal and not stop at any odds to do so. In this army the Iron Hands Praetor will take the brunt of the organising of the forces and the traditional role of leader, but it's the Word Bearer with his zealous drive and vision that keeps the crusade together, otherwise his forces, the Salamanders and Iron Hands would lack the drive to stay together and fracture. With his clear objective the Word Bearer works to stop everyone leaving to peruse their own objectives, maybe return to their home planet or try a suicidal run to terra.

You're taking the game first and then molding the fluff around it second. It should be the other way around. I suppose "competitive" 40K players can't be kept out of 30K forever... Ugh!

No respect for the universe.

 counterwavecounter wrote:
You're taking the game first and then molding the fluff around it second. It should be the other way around. I suppose "competitive" 40K players can't be kept out of 30K forever... Ugh!

No respect for the universe.

You're taking your weird fanfiction first and then molding the rules around it second. It should be the other way around. I suppose "fluff" 40K players can't be kept out of 30K forever... Ugh!

No respect for the game.

Yeah, I cannot see the WB leading.

Have him in there, by all means, but leading? I would not imagine that such powerful Loyalist figures would bow to a Traitor legion's Herald - if you're still set on having him in there, make him a Chaplain (similar level of religious devotion) and have a Loyalist as the commander.
The WB can still be the catalyst of your (somewhat dubious) narrative, but instead of leading, he guides the force and the actual Warlord (either the Sally or the Handy) commands them and holds rank. I mean, a TRAITOR being the one to hold the loyalists together is a bit of a stretch, and knowing the competitivity of the list, I'd be dubious too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 counterwavecounter wrote:
You're taking the game first and then molding the fluff around it second. It should be the other way around. I suppose "competitive" 40K players can't be kept out of 30K forever... Ugh!

No respect for the universe.

You're taking your weird fanfiction first and then molding the rules around it second. It should be the other way around. I suppose "fluff" 40K players can't be kept out of 30K forever... Ugh!

No respect for the game.

Each to their own.
Take it up with your opponent.

Also, the second part of the comment makes no sense?

Yea no way the loyalists even let the Word Bearer utter a word. Cassias isn't the most there to begin with, there is no chance at all, no justification for him to be following a Word Bearer.

Aside from that the odds that there are even a handful of loyalist Word Bearers remaining by the time of Isstvan V is so remote as to be unbelievable.

You have twenty tactical marines as your troops in a 2500 point game.

I would say:

drop cassias in order to increase the size of your tactical squads; drop the praetor into a centurion and upgrade the chaplain to a praetor (that way your RoW comes from a better spot ), and fit in a salamander centurion. This deals with some of the odd fluff bits (loyalist higher ranked officers following a lower ranked, traitor legion centurion), and gives you an all around more solid list (since your tactical squads would drop like flies)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, the second part of the comment makes no sense?

None of his comments make sense, do not engage the troll. Wisdom to live by.

Anyway, the list doesn't seem min-maxed at all, despite that being a natural reaction of anyone who sees a Shattered Legion force. Oh no, Fire drakes. You can make far meaner lists with a single Legion.

My only issue with it is that the fluff seems really dumb. Word Bearers were pretty much inseparable after Monarchia, and had no less than three internal purges to remove any loyalist elements. Cassian has an established storyline in the books, so I don't see why he would suddenly be hanging out with the only good guy Word Bearer ever.

The Legions you really have to watch out for in Shattered Legions that kick up the power level are Ultramarines (lose all drawbacks, everyone gets interlocking tactics), Raven Guard (everyone infiltrates and characters have stealth), and Alpha Legion (lose all drawbacks, can pick mutable tactics and transfer them to other units).