Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was thinking about each primarch role on the battlefield and was wondering if he faught on the frontlines or acted as a second line support commander. Also what was his close combat ability? Would he be in line with Angron, Russ, Lion, Corax, sanguinious, Mortarion or Curze? Or would he be more like Guilliman, Horus or Lorgar?

He was a primarch and as such built for combat. I imagine him at the front where the fighting is thickest but also being able to direct and command the defences with ease via comms.

Not sure how well he would fair in a straight up fight but Konrad nearly killed him.

Daston wrote:

Not sure how well he would fair in a straight up fight but Konrad nearly killed him.

I remember reading that on the wiki, but Konrad also gave Guilliman and the lion a run for there money in one of the HH books.

Daston wrote:
He was a primarch and as such built for combat. I imagine him at the front where the fighting is thickest but also being able to direct and command the defenses with ease via comms.

Not sure how well he would fair in a straight up fight but Konrad nearly killed him.

Dorn was honest and loyal to a fault. The very idea of disloyalty or treachery from one of his brothers was mind boggling to him.
Even as Kurze slipped from the shadows and started shanking him, he would have found it hard to accept what was happening, let alone raise arms against his sibling.

It was well that he was first to hear news of the heresy, as it gave him time to deal with the facts.

His sons weren't just builders though- they included the Black Templars.

In battle I'd see him as a kind of a defensive switchboard, guiding his captains to keep as many 'Fists alive as possible before committing to an assault.
During the assault he'd be at the fore, being a marine- rattling off boltershots and chopping dudes down with his chainsword.
He'd likely embrace the role of the Emperor's Champion, dealing with the greatest enemy combatants so his men were free to continue fighting the remainder- an example that would filter down with 'Fist captains taking out threats to keep their men alive.

Probably being in charge of his sons and hitting things with an oversized chainsword.

Daston wrote:

Not sure how well he would fair in a straight up fight but Konrad nearly killed him.

Dorn was unarmoured and unarmed when that happened. Curze may have been as well but if so he was still capable for tearing chunks from Dorn. It was also a totally unexpected attack and before the Heresy. It's not a useful example to use in regards to Primarch fights\strength because of the circumstances.

I see him a bit like Guilliman, hang back and give orders until the enemy leadership reveals itself. Then he turns into a frothing loony. Loony is the important word there.
Loony
1. Extremely foolish or silly.
2. Mentally deranged; crazy.

Kind of explains his missing/ deathness.

As for Kurze. Only person thats gone 1v1 with him. Is Sangy. They could both see the future.

Dorn is physically one of the weaker Primarchs (which means that he is still ridiculously strong). He is a builder and commander first, only then a warrior.
On the battlefield, he would probably hang back overseeing the battle and directing his forces, but he would not hesistate at all to throw himself into the fray at a critical moment.

the ancient wrote:
I see him a bit like Guilliman, hang back and give orders until the enemy leadership reveals itself. Then he turns into a frothing loony. Loony is the important word there.
Loony
1. Extremely foolish or silly.
2. Mentally deranged; crazy.

Kind of explains his missing/ deathness.

As for Kurze. Only person thats gone 1v1 with him. Is Sangy. They could both see the future.

But wasn't Sanguinius just in robes with his sword? While Kurze was fully armoured?

the ancient wrote:
I see him a bit like Guilliman, hang back and give orders until the enemy leadership reveals itself. Then he turns into a frothing loony. Loony is the important word there.
Loony
1. Extremely foolish or silly.
2. Mentally deranged; crazy.

Kind of explains his missing/ deathness.

As for Kurze. Only person thats gone 1v1 with him. Is Sangy. They could both see the future.

Lion's gone 1v1 with him as well.

Apparently, Dorn believed most in Unification of Humanity as the ultimate goal of the Imperium and Astartes.

He was the best ammo runt in business. With his strength he was able to reload single use Hellion missiles single handedly so fast that vehicles using the single use missile gets to reroll the dice to hit/scatter.
Joking aside the Imperial Fists is my favourite of the space marines. For the most part I picture him rushing back and forth making sure the lines hold and directing ordinance like a standard conventional commander. In critical moments such as the enemy commander revealing themselves or an enemy charge closing the distance and breaking into his ranks would get him fighting in the forefront. He was a master at defending strong points and siege warfare not a marcher of troops.

Thamor wrote:

the ancient wrote:
I see him a bit like Guilliman, hang back and give orders until the enemy leadership reveals itself. Then he turns into a frothing loony. Loony is the important word there.
Loony
1. Extremely foolish or silly.
2. Mentally deranged; crazy.

Kind of explains his missing/ deathness.

As for Kurze. Only person thats gone 1v1 with him. Is Sangy. They could both see the future.

But wasn't Sanguinius just in robes with his sword? While Kurze was fully armoured?

He pulled a Guilliman and was wearing light armour, for easy flight I think. Sangy was the only one he couldnt SEE beating (at that time).
Whether, who had what or didnt is beside the point. Hes more or less bitch slapped 3 primarchs, 1v1. 3v1.
Go up against Kurze, you will die. Unless your a culexus + callidus assassin, future seer or youve got some vested interest in seeing the emp in his cage.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
.

Lion's gone 1v1 with him as well.

Apparently, Dorn believed most in Unification of Humanity as the ultimate goal of the Imperium and Astartes.

Howd that turn out for the Lion...Guilliman...and a ragamaholic Vulkan.
He might have believed in a united humanity once. But if your forced to adopt a version of the Codex Astartes by the barrel of a boltgun by your so called brother. I guess thats unification. I wouldnt be surprised if they saw Guilliman as a hill billy at the time. Some dude from the provinces.

They all believed in a united humanity once
I guess you could compare him to the other builder. Perturabo wanted to build stuff, but was made to tear it down.
Dorn wanted to tear stuff down, but was made to build it.

the ancient wrote:
As for Kurze. Only person thats gone 1v1 with him. Is Sangy. They could both see the future.

Go up against Kurze, you will die. Unless your a culexus + callidus assassin, future seer or youve got some vested interest in seeing the emp in his cage.

False, the Lion fought him and won.

the ancient wrote:

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Lion's gone 1v1 with him as well.

Howd that turn out for the Lion...Guilliman...and a ragamaholic Vulkan.

It turned out okay actually. The first time on Tsagualsa Konrad got the upper hand and started choking the Lion. Then they fought a second time and the Lion cut him up so bad he ended up in a coma that nearly killed him. He was out cold for most of the events in The Prince of Crows, bleeding from a dozen wounds that would have been mortal for any astartes.

Anyway, it's pretty clear from the fights that the Night Haunter is more of a brawler and excels when he fights dirty or when his opponent is surprised. So I'd say Dorn didn't really get a chance to fight, especially since he wasn't expecting to.

Didn't Kurze fight Corax on Isstvan V, too?

I don't think they actually fought. Curze threatened him but Corax left to save some of his Legion.

pm713 wrote:
I don't think they actually fought. Curze threatened him but Corax left to save some of his Legion.

Yea, that and he had just fought Lorgar. He outfought Lorgar but not without taking a beating in return. I think they'd be equally matched otherwise.

Or maybe not. The Raven fights like the Lion does, with skill and finesse, whereas Curze is more of a cage fighter. It's the same with the Night Lords in general; they're murderers, not warriors. As Sevatar puts it:

The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!

 EngulfedObject wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't think they actually fought. Curze threatened him but Corax left to save some of his Legion.

Yea, that and he had just fought Lorgar. He outfought Lorgar but not without taking a beating in return. I think they'd be equally matched otherwise.

Or maybe not. The Raven fights like the Lion does, with skill and finesse, whereas Curze is more of a cage fighter. It's the same with the Night Lords in general; they're murderers, not warriors. As Sevatar puts it:

The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!

Huh. I must have gotten the wrong impression from Lex, then. On there it says that Corax fights his way out of the Gal Vorbak ambush, fights off Lorgar, then finally Curze shows up and sees the Raven off after a brief clash. Admittedly not a fair measure of them facing off, as Corax was tired and wounded while Curze was fresh and ready.

I think there's some room for a little creative licence if there wasn't a clash. I think Corax vs. Curze would be one great duel, they both seem to be two sides of a similar coin. I also like the idea of Vulkan and Perturabo having a hammer duel, too. But I'm not sure if that happened, either.

EDIT: spelling K->Curze

 Anfauglir wrote:
Huh. I must have gotten the wrong impression from Lex, then. On there it says that Corax fights his way out of the Gal Vorbak ambush, fights off Lorgar, then finally Curze shows up and sees the Raven off after a brief clash. Admittedly not a fair measure of them facing off, as Corax was tired and wounded while Curze was fresh and ready.

I think there's some room for a little creative licence if there wasn't a clash. I think Corax vs. Curze would be one great duel, they both seem to be two sides of a similar coin. I also like the idea of Vulkan and Perturabo having a hammer duel, too. But I'm not sure if that happened, either.

EDIT: spelling K->Curze

Oh, what happens exactly is that they lock power claws for a brief moment as Corax is about to kill Lorgar. Corax tries to escape but Curze grabs his wrist, preventing him from escaping. There's a brief exchange of words (why did you do this, I'll kill you, etc), then Curze tells Lorgar to get up, and in that moment Corax tears his claws free and jetpacks out of there. The whole exchange takes place on one page, with one line carrying over to the next (pg 457-458, The First Heretic, happen to have the book on me ).). No real fighting takes place.

Anyway, on Dorn, I think he'd be a capable fighter and commander both, but reliant on endurance and stubbornness. So in a fight against more martial Primarchs like the Lion or Corax, they might have the edge needed to break another Primarch, as seen when Ferrus (durability) was bested by Fulgrim (finesse).

Another factor might be that Dorn is also a builder, capable outside of war. Lorgar was also a Primarch that had many talents not limited to warfare, such as inspiring devotion in others like no other. Primarchs like the Lion, on the other hand, are built entirely for war - both on a personal level (martial prowess) as well on a strategic level. But that's pretty much his entire existence - fighting is what he does, starting with the Great Beasts the moment he arrived on Caliban.

Vulkan beat Kruze senseless but didnt kill him because Vulkan is a big softie.

 Exalted Pariah wrote:
Vulkan beat Kruze senseless but didnt kill him because Vulkan is a big softie.

what book was that, because I remember reading that Kurze killed Vulkan multiple times, Vulkan just kept regenerateing and attacking Kurze.

 Anfauglir wrote:
I also like the idea of Vulkan and Perturabo having a hammer duel, too. But I'm not sure if that happened, either.

Well, they did fight each other. But you know how Perty is like. Instead of engaging in a hammer duel, he just had Vulkan's position nuked from orbit. Iron Warriors are nothing if not pragmatic. And very fond of excessive firepower.

Although it's fun to play the "who would beat who" game. In all warfare, tactical ability beats personal combat ability every time. The fact that the Primarch's engage in front line battle at all; is stupid in my opinion. A man with a mind that can handle billions of streams of data to coordinate a battle is vastly more useful than an almost immortal warrior that kills all he touches. One can wipe out armies, navies and coordinate vast planetary invasions, another can kill a couple of hundred enemies.
In that respect, Curze was almost the worst Primarch (except Angron, who was just an uncontrollable wmd) The naval battle that ended the Thramas campaign proves that. Sevatar almost perfectly executed a plan to kill the Lion by destroying his flagship, then Curze wakes up, teleports the entire 1st company aboard said ship, then abandons the battle anyway and leaves most of the 1st company dead or captured and his entire Legion is broken forever.

Honour duals are utterly pointless in galactic scale wars. Perturabo was absolutely doing the tactically correct thing when he nuked Vulcan, using his position of tactical superiority to win instead of putting it on the coin toss of a 1v1 fight.

In fact, almost every single honour duel initiated between Primarchs in the Heresy either threw away a battle or vastly increased the damage of a defeat.

The ones I remember:
Ferrus calls out Fulgrim=Ferrus dies. Considering that most of the Iron Hands hadn't landed yet, his survival would have left at least one loyalist Legion in a position to recover (like the Ultras after Calth) but nope, Iron Hands are left to there fate and many die.

Lorgar challenges Corax=Lorgar nearly dies (in a battle that was extremely one sided in his alliances favour) lives only thanks to Curze intervening.

Curze takes on the Lion=Curze almost wins but then gets a sword through his spine and his Legion loses an entire crusade.
Round 2 in space= Curze runs away and his Legion is shattered.

Magnus, after throwing away all tactical advantage with sorrowful pacifism, challenges Russ=Magnus gets his spine turned into powder, Thousand Sons damned forever.

The Lion and Guilliman try to corner Curze, almost both are killed by mines planted by Curze, only averted due to Dantioch and the Pharos machine.

Sanguinius challenges Horus= Sanguinius dies.

Horus invites the Emperor up for a dual=Horus dies, his fragile alliance shatters and flees. The Emperor is crippled, the Imperium wins but at the cost of the Imperial dream lying in ashes and an age of unending grim dark about to begin.

To me, Guilliman and Alpharius were the two that most utilised their strengths as genius super computers and the fighty Primarchs like Russ, Angron and Curze were chump change in comparison. (Please note, despite my damning review of his command ability, Curze is my favourite character of all of them)

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

Round 2 in space= Curze runs away and his Legion is shattered.

That's Round 3.

Round 2 ends with Curze trying to stop the blood gushing out of his open throat as he stares bug-eyed at the Lion standing over him, telling him it's over. Then he ends up in a coma, as mentioned above. I don't understand how people conveniently ignore that, it's the fething opening to The Prince of Crows and sets the stage for the whole book.

And to be fair, Lorgar challenged Corax to save his favored sons, the Gal Vorbak. He knew he wasn't going to win that fight (and Kor Phaeron and Erebus tried to stop him).

But yes, I agree with your post overall.

I never got the claim that Curze was fresh and that's why he made corax run away, curze was fighting in the same battle! Also corax's book is basically him trying to convince himself that he could have taken curze if he wasn't a scared little bitch

 Spyro_Killer wrote:
I never got the claim that Curze was fresh and that's why he made corax run away, curze was fighting in the same battle! Also corax's book is basically him trying to convince himself that he could have taken curze if he wasn't a scared little bitch

Fresh in the sense that he hadn't just fought another Primarch. And Corax had just fought (well, slaughtered) the Gal Vorbak, who are elite as far as astartes go. And keep in the mind the battle was very one-sided.

I understand that Curze is very popular but surely his popularity rests on something more substantial than a reputation for easily being able to beat up any other Primarch? Because that reputation is undeserved. You don't end up in a coma when your legion needs you most and call that anything but a defeat.

Plus he gave Lorgar all that crap about being a pathetic wretch (when Lorgar fought to the best of his ability), then himself ends up like that.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
I also like the idea of Vulkan and Perturabo having a hammer duel, too. But I'm not sure if that happened, either.

Well, they did fight each other. But you know how Perty is like. Instead of engaging in a hammer duel, he just had Vulkan's position nuked from orbit. Iron Warriors are nothing if not pragmatic. And very fond of excessive firepower.

Oh I know. I think it could be really cool and highlight their differences and character really well. The way I imagine it is that Vulkan's fury at Perty's betrayal is quite alarming to behold; the former will stop at nothing to reach the latter, while the latter would really like nothing more than to shoot the former dead before getting a hammer to the face. Perty throws bombs, when that doesn't work he throws troops, when that doesn't work he throws more troops alongside the ambushing Night Lords... Vulkan still comes on. I picture this scene from Shanghai Noon, when Owen Wilson (Perty) is at first happy that Jackie Chan (Vulkan) is getting "beaten up" and then not so happy when Chan plows through everyone and starts making his way towards Owen's spot of "safety".

Vulkan, utterly distraught and enraged in equal measure, screaming in anguish charges through the IWs - like the "blood drunk" Captain in 300; see here. Also, he's extremely hard to kill, even for a Primarch (thanks to his thick skin and souped-up healing ability) and refuses to go down - again, refer to the good Captain for another example.

Basically Perty meets him in combat because he's been forced into it by Vulkan's complete refusal to let him go unpunished. I just like the idea of a warhammer duel (rather than the more commonplace blades/power claws) - a brutal brawl where they just smash away at each other. Perty's hammer (soon to be replaced by Ferrus') gets broken in two, and is left reeling and on the ropes until, finally, numbers and continued waves of ambushing reinforcements manage to wear Vulkan down. And then he's given to Curze as a prezzie after the battle!

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
I also like the idea of Vulkan and Perturabo having a hammer duel, too. But I'm not sure if that happened, either.

Well, they did fight each other. But you know how Perty is like. Instead of engaging in a hammer duel, he just had Vulkan's position nuked from orbit. Iron Warriors are nothing if not pragmatic. And very fond of excessive firepower.

Oh I know. I think it could be really cool and highlight their differences and character really well. The way I imagine it is that Vulkan's fury at Perty's betrayal is quite alarming to behold; the former will stop at nothing to reach the latter, while the latter would really like nothing more than to shoot the former dead before getting a hammer to the face. Perty throws bombs, when that doesn't work he throws troops, when that doesn't work he throws more troops alongside the ambushing Night Lords... Vulkan still comes on. I picture this scene from Shanghai Noon, when Owen Wilson (Perty) is at first happy that Jackie Chan (Vulkan) is getting "beaten up" and then not so happy when Chan plows through everyone and starts making his way towards Owen's spot of "safety".

Vulkan, utterly distraught and enraged in equal measure, screaming in anguish charges through the IWs - like the "blood drunk" Captain in 300; see here. Also, he's extremely hard to kill, even for a Primarch (thanks to his thick skin and souped-up healing ability) and refuses to go down - again, refer to the good Captain for another example.

Basically Perty meets him in combat because he's been forced into it by Vulkan's complete refusal to let him go unpunished. I just like the idea of a warhammer duel (rather than the more commonplace blades/power claws) - a brutal brawl where they just smash away at each other. Perty's hammer (soon to be replaced by Ferrus') gets broken in two, and is left reeling and on the ropes until, finally, numbers and continued waves of ambushing reinforcements manage to wear Vulkan down. And then he's given to Curze as a prezzie after the battle!

Well we don't know if Perturabo even used a hammer before being offered Forgebreaker.

Long before the Horus Heresy books started making up new stories about the primarchs very little was known. We knew Russ was a great fighter but had no real examples and that Horus simply outclassed poor Sanguinius at Terra. We also knew that Dorn was able to fight to a stalemate against the Iron Cage trap despite obvious disadvantages.

I cannot remember if it was before or very early in the Horus Heresy stories that Dorn was described as an excellent swordsman and the favoured sparring partner of the head of the Adeptus Custodes. However he is described as an excellent dueller amongst his peers (primarchs). He hasn't had a lot of fighting described in detail so there is little to work with. However since the BL authors just make most of the details up as they go anything could happen. Based on the original info we have very little idea.

 monkeypuzzle wrote:
Long before the Horus Heresy books started making up new stories about the primarchs very little was known. We knew Russ was a great fighter but had no real examples and that Horus simply outclassed poor Sanguinius at Terra. We also knew that Dorn was able to fight to a stalemate against the Iron Cage trap despite obvious disadvantages.

Well, if you want to describe "trapped, with his almost entire legion slaughtered and pinned down with only the bodies of his fallen sons for cover until he had to be rescued by Ultramarines" as a "stalemate", then sure. After all, Ferrus, Corus and Vulkan also fought the traitors to a stalemate as Isstvan, is it not?

The Iron Cage incident was an utterly disastrous and humiliating defeat for the Dorn and the Imperial Fists (so much they even had to give their resistance to the Codex), and only the Ultramarines saved them from annihilation. Dorn lived only because Perturabo thought that Dorn having to live with this shame would be a more fitting punishment than death.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Daston wrote:

Not sure how well he would fair in a straight up fight but Konrad nearly killed him.

Dorn was unarmoured and unarmed when that happened. Curze may have been as well but if so he was still capable for tearing chunks from Dorn. It was also a totally unexpected attack and before the Heresy. It's not a useful example to use in regards to Primarch fights\strength because of the circumstances.

Kurze had his Kustom Klaws on at the time so was def not unarmed.

To the OP didnt Dorn lose his hands and prob his life rushing into battle on a Chaos cruiser? So that would imply he certainly fought in the front line