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Hey all.

If you had the following army, what would you build?
If you wanted to buy more models to flesh out the army, what would you buy?

30x Termagants w/ fleshborers
12x Hormagaunts
29x Gargoyles
9x Warriors, 8 w/ Scything Talons and Deathspitters, 1 w/ Lashwhip and Deathspitter
2x Venomthropes
3x Hive Guard, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon and Lashwhip, 1 w/ Bonesword and Lashwhip
2x Biovore,
4x Spores for Biovores
1x Hive Tyrant, Wings, TL Devourers
1x Harpy Conversion to Flyrant
1x Tervigon, Scything Talons
1x Mawloc

Thanks!

Based on what I've seen (Not a tyranid player myself.) you probably want to leave the gargoyes and biovores at home. Mawloc, tyrants, and venomthropes are pro-tier. Is the terigon the one that spawns more units? If so that too. You'll also probably want all the termagants and hormaguants.

 slip wrote:
Based on what I've seen (Not a tyranid player myself.) you probably want to leave the gargoyes and biovores at home. Mawloc, tyrants, and venomthropes are pro-tier. Is the terigon the one that spawns more units? If so that too. You'll also probably want all the termagants and hormaguants.

So your saying these are good.
30x Termagants w/ fleshborers
12x Hormagaunts
2x Venomthropes
1x Hive Tyrant, Wings, TL Devourers
1x Harpy Conversion to Flyrant
1x Tervigon, Scything Talons
1x Mawloc


And these are garbage?
29x Gargoyles
9x Warriors, 8 w/ Scything Talons and Deathspitters, 1 w/ Lashwhip and Deathspitter
3x Hive Guard, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon and Lashwhip, 1 w/ Bonesword and Lashwhip
2x Biovore,
4x Spores for Biovores

Thanks for your input. I'm considering trading for this lot, and was hoping to get an estimate of how much I would need to spend to make it somewhat competitive.

Warriors and hive guard are more in between.

But yeah, 29 gargoyles? yeeesh.

competitive tyr play at least 3-4 hive tyrants right now....with just one there is no way to build a competitive list.

 blackmage wrote:
competitive tyr play at least 3-4 hive tyrants right now....with just one there is no way to build a competitive list.

That's not to bad then. Flyrants seem pretty reasonably priced from GW.
If all I need is 2 or 3 more to be rocking, that's not that bad.

usually a standard built start with at least 3 hive tyrants it is the most powerful unit you have.

More hive tyrants is always good. Another mawloc would also not go amiss. See if you can grab some rippers and/or mucolid spores (can either use the FW meiotics or build your own) to use as bargain basement troops. If you want to use the tervigon you probably want more termagaunts - if it's going to be troops, which is its best place to be as obsec MCs are nice - then you need 30 gaunts in your list and more to spawn later.

As it stands, you'll probably have to use nearly all your models to build an 1850 list. More hive tyrants will definitely help with that.

I disagree that gargoyles are bad - they're certainly far better than gaunts, termagaunts being good solely as you can spawn them for free and/or enable an obsec tervigon with them. The main boon is the 12" move which makes them very solid obj grabbers, and their instinctive behaviour being the "good" one that only makes them GtG instead of running off the table or eating each other. Moreover, they have the blind ability which makes them excellent tarpits for enemy units. I'd run them as 2 units of 14/15. You can also look into the skytyrant and skyblight formations, which are some of our best and require a lot of gargoyles.

Biovores are also not terrible at all - str4 ap4 barrage for 40pts isn't bad at all, especially as you get a unit out of it even if you miss! Hive guard/tyrant guard and warriors are really not that great however.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Hey all.

If you had the following army, what would you build?
If you wanted to buy more models to flesh out the army, what would you buy?

30x Termagants w/ fleshborers
12x Hormagaunts
29x Gargoyles
9x Warriors, 8 w/ Scything Talons and Deathspitters, 1 w/ Lashwhip and Deathspitter
2x Venomthropes
3x Hive Guard, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon and Lashwhip, 1 w/ Bonesword and Lashwhip
2x Biovore,
4x Spores for Biovores
1x Hive Tyrant, Wings, TL Devourers
1x Harpy Conversion to Flyrant
1x Tervigon, Scything Talons
1x Mawloc

Thanks!

Well, it "depends" on your local "meta"...but I'd suggest one more Tyrant no matter what, and I'd look at building out a "Living Artillery Node"

A second Mawlock is very likely to be usefull as well.

slip wrote:Based on what I've seen (Not a tyranid player myself.) you probably want to leave the gargoyes and biovores at home. Mawloc, tyrants, and venomthropes are pro-tier. Is the terigon the one that spawns more units? If so that too. You'll also probably want all the termagants and hormaguants.

to the OP, from someone who does play Tyranids,I can guarantee you this is not great advice... Biovores are one of the best units in the dex and Tervigons are one of the worst.. Gargs aren't too bad if you have nothing else, definitely very playable units if not the top tier. He's right about the Mawloc's, Tyrants and the Venomthrope (so long as its just the one) however.

pinecone77 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Hey all.

If you had the following army, what would you build?
If you wanted to buy more models to flesh out the army, what would you buy?

30x Termagants w/ fleshborers
12x Hormagaunts
29x Gargoyles
9x Warriors, 8 w/ Scything Talons and Deathspitters, 1 w/ Lashwhip and Deathspitter
2x Venomthropes
3x Hive Guard, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon, 1 w/ Impaler Cannon and Lashwhip, 1 w/ Bonesword and Lashwhip
2x Biovore,
4x Spores for Biovores
1x Hive Tyrant, Wings, TL Devourers
1x Harpy Conversion to Flyrant
1x Tervigon, Scything Talons
1x Mawloc

Thanks!

Well, it "depends" on your local "meta"...but I'd suggest one more Tyrant no matter what, and I'd look at building out a "Living Artillery Node"

A second Mawlock is very likely to be usefull as well.

this ^^ !!

gargoyles are good in skyblight formation, OS units which come back at 4+ if destroyed, winged hive tyrants (with devourer), hive crones, mawlock are some fine tools you have with tyr right now, also biovores can be a good choice if you have some spare points.

I've won a tourney with my Nids place highly in many others and have about an 85% win ratio. For fun all the models you have are fine and of use. For competitive , it's Flyrants , Malanthrope and Mawlocs. You can also throw in a dakka fex too.

 SHUPPET wrote:

to the OP, from someone who does play Tyranids,I can guarantee you this is not great advice... Biovores are one of the best units in the dex and Tervigons are one of the worst.. Gargs aren't too bad if you have nothing else, definitely very playable units if not the top tier. He's right about the Mawloc's, Tyrants and the Venomthrope (so long as its just the one) however.

Well let's take a look at the successful Tyranid lists the last two years.

Dan Wright 2nd Overall Lantasy

TJ Lanigan12th Overall Adepticon

Sean Nayden 1st Overall LVO

John Parsons 15th Overall NovaOpen

Not a single gargoyle or bioviore to be seen, but there is a Tervigon of all things, and one with 3 venomthropes.

I don't play them personally, but I did my homework. If you like the look, fluff, or playstyle then by all means but the OP did not indicate any such preferences so I recommended the stuff that's seen success at competition level.

i've seen some tournament lists with skyblight swarm so most depend from local meta and/or playstyle

The only one I've found was John Dyer's skyblight swarm from the 2015 Bay Area Open which came in 27th. Nothing to write home about.

We also don't have any input about his local meta or playstyle is so speculating as to what that is before advising in making a large purchase is not a good thing to do. These tournaments however span playstyles and metas.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
competitive tyr play at least 3-4 hive tyrants right now....with just one there is no way to build a competitive list.

That's not to bad then. Flyrants seem pretty reasonably priced from GW.
If all I need is 2 or 3 more to be rocking, that's not that bad.

I do feel obliged to point out, however:

Recommend 2-3 more flyrants if and only if you are wanting to cheese out and win tournaments.

If the goal is to enjoy casual play, running a list of 3 or 4 flyrants probably will not win you friends.

 slip wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

to the OP, from someone who does play Tyranids,I can guarantee you this is not great advice... Biovores are one of the best units in the dex and Tervigons are one of the worst.. Gargs aren't too bad if you have nothing else, definitely very playable units if not the top tier. He's right about the Mawloc's, Tyrants and the Venomthrope (so long as its just the one) however.

Well let's take a look at the successful Tyranid lists the last two years.

Dan Wright 2nd Overall Lantasy

TJ Lanigan12th Overall Adepticon

Sean Nayden 1st Overall LVO

John Parsons 15th Overall NovaOpen

Not a single gargoyle or bioviore to be seen, but there is a Tervigon of all things, and one with 3 venomthropes.

I don't play them personally, but I did my homework. If you like the look, fluff, or playstyle then by all means but the OP did not indicate any such preferences so I recommended the stuff that's seen success at competition level.

You see one Tervigon in all those 4 lists, and its the list that did the worst out of the lot of them. He isn't a great unit against an opponent who knows how to play against it, it's very possible you can catch some people off guard with it and get away with murder, who knows, judging by the fact that he also had a Dimae in there, I'd say thats almost guaranteed to be what happened. Some questionable gak always ends up placing at least somewhere, it doesn't make it any less questionable,and certainly doesn't automatically make them top tier, especially when they didn't even break top 10. At the end of the day, 40k is a game with rampant balance issues, played off dice rolls, with a diminutive size competitive scene. This isn't like an eSport competitive gaming where theres millions of players and a massive results statistic to pick through, anything can happen in ~200 man pools

But just pointing to other people's lists with absolutely no explanation of their decisions, is the worst argument for strength of a unit ever. You think these guys just copied what someone else told them? No, they thought for themselves, and looking at Biovores, if you can't see why a 120 pt unit with 3x 48" s4 ap4 cover ignoring guns is absolute excellent for this race, then you just aren't thinking about it. It's not an auto-include, but it's just one step away from it, especially since Living Artillery lets them re-roll the blasts.

I DO play them personally and have done for like, ever, and just like pretty much every other Tyranid main on this site will also tell you, Tervigon's are a waste of points. They are like 150% the price of Mawloc for something with the same defensive stats, no evasive special moves, and absolutely no offensive power (especially compared to a deepstriker with a S6 AP2 double hitting cover ignoring blast, who you can literally afford 3 of for the price of 2 Tervs), and they nuke the 120 pt Termagaunts tax they require when they die. They are just a poor unit plain and simply subpar.

Actually, 2nd worst, of the lists I posted. He did better than any other tyranid player in that tournament. Some of these tournaments as you mentioned have 200 competitors. That is more than enough to be statistically relevant. His specifically was Adepticon, one of the largest. So even coming in the top 15 is a big deal. There's more to support the Tervigon than there is biovores. All you have for that is an appeal to your own authority. I've been playing this game since 3rd edition, I know a thing or two about it.

Biovores are incredibly overpriced. Ork Lobbas are better in every conceivable way and are 18 points a pop. A full units is just as pricey as a couple of wyverns and more than a thunderfire. Whatever a biovore unit can do in an entire game a Mawloc can do better in one turn and more for 20 points more. You can even just take the spores themselves, and many actual competitive players do just that, bypassing the biovore completely. The fact it fills a gap in the tyranid list doesn't make up for it being one of the most expensive and least powerful units of it's type in the game, and they need a babysitter to boot. Competitive gaming is about minimizing your bad units and maximizing you good units, not finding balance in all aspects of the game.

The context, that's a funny thing to bring up. The context of that Tervigan is that he's running a 5 tyrant list, and it allows him to spawn units to secure objective to win games while min/maxing what everyone here has agreed is the best unit in the list. So yeah, it's useful.

You're obviously super invested in this biovore deal, I've presented evidence to support my stance and I'm just going to leave it at that. If they were one of the best units in the codex, you'd see them placing, but I don't see a list with one biovore placing in the top 30 of any major tournament in the last two years, so I think you're attached to them and looking at the whole thing through rose coloured glasses. Sometimes people can be too close to be objective.

 slip wrote:
Actually, 2nd worst, of the lists I posted.

One guy came first, one guy came 2nd, the list you are talking about come got a 12th place standing, and the last guy came 15th. You are right it wasn't the worst out of the 4 but it wasn't the second best or even close to the first two, and it most certainly isn't enough to just forget everything we know about the unit and blindly follow the flute player

 slip wrote:
He did better than any other tyranid player in that tournament. Some of these tournaments as you mentioned have 200 competitors. That is more than enough to be statistically relevant.

I just gave pretty solid reasoning that it wasn't, but whatever. I guess you saying it is, makes it so.

 slip wrote:
There's more to support the Tervigon than there is biovores. All you have for that is an appeal to your own authority. I've been playing this game since 3rd edition, I know a thing or two about it.

Isn't that also just an appeal to your own authority? You said you don't even play the army in your original post you just posted links to other people's lists like it means anything...

 slip wrote:
Biovores are incredibly overpriced. Ork Lobbas are better in every conceivable way and are 18 points a pop.

Better in every concievable way? Lobba's are the same range, worse AP, BS3 instead of 4, no re-roll on misses, and Small Blasts when Biovores are Large Blasts.... you might wanna check your information on this one. The whole point of Biovores is that its AP4 and they can reliably merk stuff like Pathfinders and other GEQ in the ruins, Lobbas are pointless in comparison, yes they are cheaper but they can't reliably perform the role. Also, Orks have much less need for a unit of this style it as the army can put speedy Templates out no worries, Biovores are a much bigger unit in an army like Nids

 slip wrote:
Whatever a biovore unit can do in an entire game a Mawloc can do better in one turn and more for 20 points more.

Mawloc's cannot blast the ruins (big), nor do they have BS4 re-rollable blasts on their scatter (big), and nor can they do it from the safety of 42" range and a 2+ cover save with a venom near your ruins, and they risk mishapping which can be game changing... they have different roles, and there is also not Mawloc formation that lets you take them outside of FoC, not to mention that buffs that come with it, and as you said, they are 20 points dearer...

 slip wrote:
You can even just take the spores themselves, and many actual competitive players do just that, bypassing the biovore completely.

uhhhh... you might wanna check the ruling there on this unit for the army you don't play, because that's not how spores work lol

 slip wrote:
The context, that's a funny thing to bring up. The context of that Tervigan is that he's running a 5 tyrant list, and it allows him to spawn units to secure objective to win games while min/maxing what everyone here has agreed is the best unit in the list. So yeah, it's useful.

1.) you didn't call it useful, you called it one of the best units in the dex (lol)
2.) absolutely every model in the game is more useful than nothing, that's not how 40k works though, the question is is there something better? And when the question is asked about the Tervigon, the answer is always yes.

Have you done the math on the unit or looked at the rules of it? You realise you have a 44% chance to clog during any spawning roll, including the first? And the fact that it can't even legitimately provide Synapse to these same gaunts because when it dies it takes the bulk of them with it? You do realise that more often than not, he will have way more OS units by spending the points on actual OS units? Do you realise that this unit trades less efficiently with S8 fire than even WARRIORS, a 3W Tyranid unit that gets insta deathed by S8? A unit that I might add also safely provides Synapse without threatening all the models it is intended to provide Synapse too (unlike the feedback nuke Tervigon drops on all the Termagants as soon as your opponent kills it), and can actually come with a pair of 36" s4 ap5 pinning large blasts so it can actually maybe even do something while providing the mid/backfield Synapse, AND is more tanky because it can split into two units as well as get cover saves so much easier AND by the same measure cover double as much ground for Synapse and OS two objectives, all this for less points than the Tervigon? And thats considered one of the WORSE units in the dex? And the Tervigon is even crappier. He is seriously butt.

 slip wrote:
You're obviously super invested in this biovore deal, I've presented evidence to support my stance and I'm just going to leave it at that. If they were one of the best units in the codex, you'd see them placing, but I don't see a list with one biovore placing in the top 50 of any tournament in the last two years, so I think you're attached to them and looking at the whole thing through rose coloured glasses. Sometimes people can be too close to be objective.

My only investments are to stopping the misinformation you are spouting about an army you don't even play, and to giving advice to the guy who asked for advice, rather than just rattling off tournament results and acting like it trump's people providing actual advice experience and logic, which is the silliest way to evaluated a unit's playability ever. Oh, Biovores are bad because these people here didn't play it. Think for yourself! That's not supporting logic or evidence, thats just anecdotal recounts that could have been influenced by anything and because the given sample statistic is so small (4 lists!) its almost guaranteed to be, and the furthest thing ever from a completely infallible accurate analysis of the dex, thats just ridiculous. By this exact same terrible, terrible logic, Toxicrenes, Nuerothropes, Ripper Swarms and Dimae's are top tier units, while Carnifexes, Exocrines, and every single unit in Living Artillery Node, among others, are all completely unplayable. Do you know how silly that sounds to anyone actually familiar with the army?




I feel like you don't really know much about the army you are talking about here, which isn't speculation you've more or less admitted that openly yourself, and you are trying to school a Tyranid vet from longer than you've literally even played the game based off nothing other than your infallible faith in tournament placings. And thats simply not very much. Post your tourney lists all you want, but dont try to use them to overrule advice from people who actually understand how to play the army, when they try to give advice on how to play the army, to someone who asked for advice on how to play the army.

Just to weigh back in, imo both Biovores and Tervigons are useful, with biovores probably just edging out Tervigons. I wouldn't say either is a terrible option at all. Biovores as mentioned are just useful because of their weapon, whilst tervigons' strength lies in being an obsec MC which gets to outflank - admittedly it is overcosted now, but given the state of our dex its still workable.

Also, skyblight lists have topped recently at several continental European tournaments, so it certainly isn't a terrible option at all - I think the gargoyles' respawning and mobility makes it one of our best options for maelstrom missions (personally I won the maelstrom mission 4/5 games in my most recent tourney where I took it).

In any case, I don't think there's much point telling people asking for advice only the most competitive builds, because then you'd be saying to get 5 flyrants, mawlocs, mucolids and then maybe venom/malanthropes and possibly lictors and rippers. Which is boring as hell and still doesn't make Nids top tier - you might as well point people towards the better semicompetitive stuff in the dex and away from the pyrovores...

Benlisted wrote:
Just to weigh back in, imo both Biovores and Tervigons are useful, with biovores probably just edging out Tervigons. I wouldn't say either is a terrible option at all. Biovores as mentioned are just useful because of their weapon, whilst tervigons' strength lies in being an obsec MC which gets to outflank - admittedly it is overcosted now, but given the state of our dex its still workable.

Also, skyblight lists have topped recently at several continental European tournaments, so it certainly isn't a terrible option at all - I think the gargoyles' respawning and mobility makes it one of our best options for maelstrom missions (personally I won the maelstrom mission 4/5 games in my most recent tourney where I took it).

In any case, I don't think there's much point telling people asking for advice only the most competitive builds, because then you'd be saying to get 5 flyrants, mawlocs, mucolids and then maybe venom/malanthropes and possibly lictors and rippers. Which is boring as hell and still doesn't make Nids top tier - you might as well point people towards the better semicompetitive stuff in the dex and away from the pyrovores...

I agree with most of what you are saying, except for the part about needing 5 Flyrants, but you can definitely build competitive Nids without needing them in fact I'd argue you can do much better than an army that folds to good Skyfire coverage

 SHUPPET wrote:

Benlisted wrote:
Just to weigh back in, imo both Biovores and Tervigons are useful, with biovores probably just edging out Tervigons. I wouldn't say either is a terrible option at all. Biovores as mentioned are just useful because of their weapon, whilst tervigons' strength lies in being an obsec MC which gets to outflank - admittedly it is overcosted now, but given the state of our dex its still workable.

Also, skyblight lists have topped recently at several continental European tournaments, so it certainly isn't a terrible option at all - I think the gargoyles' respawning and mobility makes it one of our best options for maelstrom missions (personally I won the maelstrom mission 4/5 games in my most recent tourney where I took it).

In any case, I don't think there's much point telling people asking for advice only the most competitive builds, because then you'd be saying to get 5 flyrants, mawlocs, mucolids and then maybe venom/malanthropes and possibly lictors and rippers. Which is boring as hell and still doesn't make Nids top tier - you might as well point people towards the better semicompetitive stuff in the dex and away from the pyrovores...

I agree with most of what you are saying, except for the part about needing 5 Flyrants, but you can definitely build competitive Nids without needing them in fact I'd argue you can do much better than an army that folds to good Skyfire coverage

I agree as well, I only own three myself with plans for a fourth, but it serves as a tongue-in-cheek illustration of how boring some of the winning nid lists tend to be!

Benlisted wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Benlisted wrote:
Just to weigh back in, imo both Biovores and Tervigons are useful, with biovores probably just edging out Tervigons. I wouldn't say either is a terrible option at all. Biovores as mentioned are just useful because of their weapon, whilst tervigons' strength lies in being an obsec MC which gets to outflank - admittedly it is overcosted now, but given the state of our dex its still workable.

Also, skyblight lists have topped recently at several continental European tournaments, so it certainly isn't a terrible option at all - I think the gargoyles' respawning and mobility makes it one of our best options for maelstrom missions (personally I won the maelstrom mission 4/5 games in my most recent tourney where I took it).

In any case, I don't think there's much point telling people asking for advice only the most competitive builds, because then you'd be saying to get 5 flyrants, mawlocs, mucolids and then maybe venom/malanthropes and possibly lictors and rippers. Which is boring as hell and still doesn't make Nids top tier - you might as well point people towards the better semicompetitive stuff in the dex and away from the pyrovores...

I agree with most of what you are saying, except for the part about needing 5 Flyrants, but you can definitely build competitive Nids without needing them in fact I'd argue you can do much better than an army that folds to good Skyfire coverage

I agree as well, I only own three myself with plans for a fourth, but it serves as a tongue-in-cheek illustration of how boring some of the winning nid lists tend to be!

Definitely, glad we are on the same page! Flyrants are an amazing unit and I think its undebatable that they are an auto-take 2 minimum with possibly 3, I only own 3 but I've borrowed two and experimented with it, and while it can wreck some armies it also has a very extremely poor match ups! I prefer to build a little bit more TAC, and with a little more effort than "spam the best unit in the dex" I feel like you can actually get a list just as or even more powerful than gambling everything on maxed out FMC's