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I've read the sentiment, a couple of times now, that wraithguard are OP. I further read the sentiment today that, even were it not for the ridiculously underpriced wraithknight and the scatter bike shenanigans, that the Eldar codex is filled to the brim with OP grade A cheddar.

I've read arguments for wraithguard being OP, but I thought it fitting to make a thread specifically devoted to this question.

Are wraithguard OP?

Let's briefly examine what the model can do.

It's a 32 ppm model with T6 and a 3+ armor save. Its standard gun fires a single strength D shot at 12 inch range. It can elect to use D flamers for an additional 50 points per unit. It can elect to take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport.

I understand the general reason that people don't like this model. It's a model which has strength D at roughly terminator prices.

In practice, however, how much damage do these things actually do?

I am just going to throw this fact out there: in a relatively recent game, I vaporized 2 or 3 (I think it was 3) with a single plasma cannon blast.

Aside from wraithguard, what other units in the Eldar codex do you think (aside from wraithknights and scatter bikes) are OP and why?

Yes, of course they're overpowered. D-weapons do not belong on non-LoW units, especially non-LoW infantry that can be spammed in large numbers. Compare a 32-point wraithguard model to a 24-point tactical marine with a melta gun and the problem is obvious.

(This should of course be the end of the debate, given your previous statement that marines are the benchmark by which all other things must be measured.)

Wraithguard are not as bad as everyone says due to lack of invul and mass ap3 weapons. Add in the fact they have one wound a piece and as you stated, cost a decent amount, they are actually one of the more balanced units in the codex. Scatbikes and wraithknights are not shenanigans as you stated. They are units you can simply take by paying their given points cost. While I enjoy that this tread is simply somewhat to discuss thoughts, some of your sentencing is simply leading it to be a discussion of people QQ'ing of how eldar hurt their feelings cause they couldn't beat msu of scatbikes wraithknights and wraithguard with d Flamers being strategically deep struck by an archon with webway portal to kill any unit I want cause I landed an inch away and vaporized your expensive smash fether and his bike squad.

If you vaporized three with a Plasma Cannon, your opponent sucks at spacing.

Also, they have excellent damage output. Compare them to any Sternguard veteran with a Combi-Melta.
Regarding the D-Scythe, while it has a MUCH shorter range, it vaporizes anything it touches. S4 being used for ID literally matters 0% of the time when you're inflicting multiple wounds anyway.

Also, the ability to ally-in a DE Archon With Webway Portal and a Raider for precision DS and an open-topped transport from which to fire from helps their ability to actually get in and use their D-flamers a ton.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, of course they're overpowered. D-weapons do not belong on non-LoW units, especially non-LoW infantry that can be spammed in large numbers. Compare a 32-point wraithguard model to a 24-point tactical marine with a melta gun and the problem is obvious.

(This should of course be the end of the debate, given your previous statement that marines are the benchmark by which all other things must be measured.)

I think that's a difficult comparison to make. A sternguard veteran has an effective threat range of 36 inches. I think the reason I am having difficulty seeing wraithguard as OP is because of their extremely short range. You can put them in a (relatively expensive) wave serpent and disembark them, and they'll vaporize whatever they hit. But then there's a good chance that the wraithguard unit (in all likelihood, a 210 unit) is going to get shot up on the following turn.

How much damage does a wraithguard unit actually do, in practice, in the course of a game?


I will, of course, agree with the comparison to this extent, though.

A sternguard veteran firing hellfire rounds will kill, on average, a wraithguard on one shot out of every...(2/3 X 5/6 X 1/3 (10/48))...

five? One in five hellfire rounds kills a wraithguard.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you vaporized three with a Plasma Cannon, your opponent sucks at spacing.

They were not very well spaced out.

Also, they have excellent damage output

In principle, this is true.

In practice?

They don't need to do a ton, and again precision DS inside of an open-topped skimmer helps them a ton. They only need to kill one thing to make their points back, as generally that thing is something the army would otherwise have trouble with (SmashFether, SHV/GCs, LR squadrons, ect.) And they are VERY good at that.

Good players don't simply walk Wraithguard across the board. They support it with other units such as transporting it in a Wave Serpant or No-Scatter Deep Striking them with an allied Webway Portal

 Swampmist wrote:
They don't need to do a ton

I'm going to assume the following:

For a given model to be undercosted, at least one of the two must be the case:

1. The unit regularly can be expected to kill models which have, for their collective points costs total, a greater value than that unit.

2. The value of the models which regularly can be expected to kill that unit, which are traditionally suited to killing that unit, exceeds the value, in terms of collective points costs, of that unit.

Do either of these hold true for a wraithguard?

A single krak missile vaporizes a wraithguard with a d-scythe.

A single plasma cannon shot can kill as many as are bunched together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me be clear, I do think that wraithguard should cost more points (though not a whole lot more). I just don't see it as being a particularly major offender in terms of OPness.

Notice OP is ignoring everyone whom is bringing up no scatter deep strike kill anything you want.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Notice OP is ignoring everyone whom is bringing up no scatter deep strike kill anything you want.

That's not really useful for evaluating whether wraithguard are OP, considered in and of themselves.

Because then it's not wraithguard. It's wraithguard + force multiplier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the OP:

Does anyone have any major complaints about other units in the Eldar codex aside from wraithguard, wraithknights,scatterbikes and warp spiders?

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Notice OP is ignoring everyone whom is bringing up no scatter deep strike kill anything you want.

That's not really useful for evaluating whether wraithguard are OP, considered in and of themselves.

Because then it's not wraithguard. It's wraithguard + force multiplier.

Thats not how the game works though. Combos are what makes bad units good and good units broken. Ignoring combinations gives a very limited view on how the the game works.

You didn't have to go back to the original post when we were still talking about the original post. Doesn't make sense and is senseless and dumb. No, none. Eldar are fine. Learn to play and beat what they have or go color in another book

CrownAxe wrote:Thats not how the game works though. Combos are what makes bad units good and good units broken. Ignoring combinations gives a very limited view on how the the game works.

I generally agree. I fully admit this point.

However, the claim in question is that wraithguard are OP.

They well might be OP when used in conjunction with webway portal.

But at that point, that raises the question:

Are wraithguard OP?

Or are psychic shenanigans OP?

Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.

Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.

Wait... A webway portal.. Which is an item that can be taken... And a unit with a gun... Is considered psychic shenanigans? I've been playing the game wrong this whole time..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wait... A webway portal.. Which is an item that can be taken... And a unit with a gun... Is considered psychic shenanigans? I've been playing the game wrong this whole time..

I was under the impression that webway portal is a psychic power.

I've just done my research.

Webway portal is a dark eldar thing.

At any rate, I answer in the same way:

Is it wraithguard that are OP?

Or is it the ability to take allies?

Or is the webway portal upgrade itself OP?

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wait... A webway portal.. Which is an item that can be taken... And a unit with a gun... Is considered psychic shenanigans? I've been playing the game wrong this whole time..

I was under the impression that webway portal is a psychic power.

I've just done my research.

Webway portal is a dark eldar thing.

At any rate, I answer in the same way:

Is it wraithguard that are OP?

Or is it the ability to take allies?

Or is the webway portal upgrade itself OP?

Allies, as stated above, make everything better period. This includes your beloved marine plebs. It's the way the cookie crumbles. Wraithguard are not OP. D is scary and because they have D people auto consider OP.

Webway isn't OP, because if it is just pure dark eldar then it's one of the few things they have to assist them in their glass codex

 Swampmist wrote:
Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.

Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.

My eldar playing friend is considering getting some swooping hawks (possibly for specifically playing against me, since he's basically agreed not to use his wraithknight(s) and scatter bikes).

I've read the entry in his codex.

They sound like fun. Swoop in. Bomb. Swoop out. It sounds spectacular (in the etymological sense of the term) without necessarily being game-breaking.

Traditio wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.

Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.

My eldar playing friend is considering getting some swooping hawks (possibly for specifically playing against me, since he's basically agreed not to use his wraithknight(s) and scatter bikes).

I've read the entry in his codex.

They sound like fun. Swoop in. Bomb. Swoop out. It sounds spectacular (in the etymological sense of the term) without necessarily being game-breaking.

You will find if you read more into it that the only game breaking things are the scatterbikes and knights. The rest are just a solid codex, and now with mureenz huge buff with that suppliment and cards, tau, crons, eldar and SM flavours are all nipping at top spot for strongest army, eldar only win that right now because of scatbikes and knight.

cosmicsoybean wrote:You will find if you read more into it that the only game breaking things are the scatterbikes and knights. The rest are just a solid codex, and now with mureenz huge buff with that suppliment and cards, tau, crons, eldar and SM flavours are all nipping at top spot for strongest army, eldar only win that right now because of scatbikes and knight.

That is my general opinion. Personally, I think that Eldritch storm could be nerfed a bit (large blast instead of apocalyptic blast), there could be some other minor nerfs, and there should be points cost adjustments.

But overall, I think that the codex is mostly OK except for those units.

Scatbikes are a good cost model. Heck I honestly cringe at having to pay 27 points for an ap6 gun. Str.6 is good, but can't we make it ap3 for that 27 points? Sheesh

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Scatbikes are a good cost model. Heck I honestly cringe at having to pay 27 points for an ap6 gun. Str.6 is good, but can't we make it ap3 for that 27 points? Sheesh

Hey.

Why don't you play chaos space marines (whether on bikes or not), play against an eldar player using scatter bikes, and then get back to me.

Better yet.

Play Orks and get back to me.

Traditio wrote:

cosmicsoybean wrote:You will find if you read more into it that the only game breaking things are the scatterbikes and knights. The rest are just a solid codex, and now with mureenz huge buff with that suppliment and cards, tau, crons, eldar and SM flavours are all nipping at top spot for strongest army, eldar only win that right now because of scatbikes and knight.

That is my general opinion. Personally, I think that Eldritch storm could be nerfed a bit (large blast instead of apocalyptic blast), there could be some other minor nerfs, and there should be points cost adjustments.

But overall, I think that the codex is mostly OK except for those units.

Also true. My friend played vs my eldar after I broke them out for the first time since the new codex (Hey, I wanna use my shiny bone limited codex!) and ploped an eldritch storm apoc blast on him on my T2 and wiped out almost his entire army. fleshbane, armourbane and ap (2-3) is too good for WC3 and apoc sized.

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Scatbikes are a good cost model. Heck I honestly cringe at having to pay 27 points for an ap6 gun. Str.6 is good, but can't we make it ap3 for that 27 points? Sheesh

Hey.

Why don't you play chaos space marines (whether on bikes or not), play against an eldar player using scatter bikes, and then get back to me.

Better yet.

Play Orks and get back to me.

Prior to being mechanicus, then now eldar factions, I had 23,000 points in orks. Get back to me when you know more about sarcasm.

cosmicsoybean wrote:Also true. My friend played vs my eldar after I broke them out for the first time since the new codex (Hey, I wanna use my shiny bone limited codex!) and ploped an eldritch storm apoc blast on him on my T2 and wiped out almost his entire army. fleshbane, armourbane and ap (2-3) is too good for WC3 and apoc sized.

Plus haywire. Don't forget haywire. For the lulz.

On the other hand, it's 24 inch range. So that's a thing.

At any rate, the original context of this thread is another thread on which codices could be fixed with minor revisions, and which need major overhaul.

I expressed the opinion that Eldar fall into the category of "easily fixable with minor revisions."

I was then answered that the codex is full of grade A cheddar.

I just don't see it.

It's a generally good codex, but very few things in it are game breaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Prior to being mechanicus, then now eldar factions, I had 23,000 points in orks. Get back to me when you know more about sarcasm.

Oh.

I'm terribly sorry...I thought you were serious.

I find that a good way of expressing sarcasm on the internet is to write "[/sarcasm]" at the end of the thing that you're saying sarcastically.

Traditio wrote:
I think that's a difficult comparison to make. A sternguard veteran has an effective threat range of 36 inches.

What? Did you read the post you just replied to? I was comparing them to a MEQ with a melta gun, not sternguard. A melta marine has the same anti-tank role (with a side of killing elite infantry) as wraithguard and the same 12" maximum range. Except the melta marine has a shorter threat range, since it has to get within 6" to fire at full effectiveness while the wraithguard's D-weapon does not drop in effectiveness above half range.

They were not very well spaced out.

Therefore negating any conclusions you can draw from the event. Your opponent's failure to do anything to mitigate the effect of blast weapons does not make their units weak, it makes the player bad at 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
I'm going to assume the following:

For a given model to be undercosted, at least one of the two must be the case:

1. The unit regularly can be expected to kill models which have, for their collective points costs total, a greater value than that unit.

2. The value of the models which regularly can be expected to kill that unit, which are traditionally suited to killing that unit, exceeds the value, in terms of collective points costs, of that unit.

And, as I've already pointed out in your other thread, this is a bad approach to balance questions:

#1 is bad because many units can and should kill more than their point value, because they are single-role specialists. A 100-point anti-tank specialist should be able to kill significantly more than 100 points worth of tanks because that's the only thing it can do effectively.

#2 is bad because there's a lot more to 40k than lining up units and rolling dice until one side is dead. And it's especially bad when you limit the test unit to the short list of things that you personally are willing to play in your army and reject comparisons with more efficient killers with some form of "I shouldn't have to use that".

A better way to tell whether a unit is overpowered is to compare it to a unit with a similar role, in this case melta MEQs. The wraithguard cost 33% more per model, but gain massive advantages in pretty much every area. In any role where you could use the melta marines you're almost certainly better off taking wraithguard instead.

Peregrine wrote:
What? Did you read the post you just replied to? I was comparing them to a MEQ with a melta gun, not sternguard. A melta marine has the same anti-tank role (with a side of killing elite infantry) as wraithguard and the same 12" weapon. Except the melta marine has a shorter threat range, since it has to get within 6" to fire at full effectiveness while the wraithguard's D-weapon does not drop in effectiveness above half range.

Yeah, I completely misread what you said. Somehow, I mentally replaced "tactical marine with meltagun" with "sternguard veteran with combimelta."

I wish to make the following points:

1. 24 =/= 32. 24 =/= 37. 24 =/= 42.

So right off the bat, your comparison starts off with an inequality between the things being compared.

2. It's not clear to me that wraithguard are specifically antitank. They seem pretty short-range and slow to be particularly effective at that, in and of themselves. Plus, flamers are generally anti-infantry.

3. There's a difference in delivery systems. You can stick that meltagun marine in a rhino (and shoot out of the top hatch). You only can stick the wraithguard in a waveserpent (which does not have firing points).

I don't know. Just how fair is the comparison?

I think that the better, more accurate consideration is this:

Does it take much more than 210 points of, say, sternguard veterans regularly to take out wraithguard?

Do wraithguard usually kill more than 210 points worth of models?

Therefore negating any conclusions you can draw from the event. Your opponent's failure to do anything to mitigate the effect of blast weapons does not make their units weak, it makes the player bad at 40k.

Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.

Edit:

Note, of course, that none of this rules out the notion that wraithguard should cost more points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:#1 is bad because many units can and should kill more than their point value, because they are single-role specialists. A 100-point anti-tank specialist should be able to kill significantly more than 100 points worth of tanks because that's the only thing it can do effectively.

I grant the point in abstracto (in general; apart from any concrete conditions). I deny the point in concreto (in all actuality; in the particular cases).

Presupposing perfect balance and equivalent player skill, the rock should be able to beat its points cost in scissors before paper covers rock.

#2 is bad because there's a lot more to 40k than lining up units and rolling dice until one side is dead.

I grant the point. Note that I haven't made any mention of math-hammer with respect to wraithguard.

A better way to tell whether a unit is overpowered is to compare it to a unit with a similar role, in this case melta MEQs.

I am dubious about this comparison.

Traditio wrote:
So right off the bat, your comparison starts off with an inequality between the things being compared.

Yes, which I clearly stated. The wraithguard pay 33% more points per model for:

* +2 toughness (usually resulting in more than a 33% increase in durability)
* better chance to get penetrating hits
* vastly better damage when they do get penetrating hits
* no reduction in effectiveness above 12"
* no bolter marine tax required, every model in the squad has an anti-tank weapon

This is way more than a 33% improvement in power, so the wraithguard is overpowered relative to the melta marine.

2. It's not clear to me that wraithguard are specifically antitank. They seem pretty short-range and slow to be particularly effective at that, in and of themselves. Plus, flamers are generally anti-infantry.

Wraithguard are no slower than marines with melta guns, which is what I'm comparing them to. Both are infantry units, both have conventional transports, and both have various "faster" transports (deep strike, etc). And flamers generally being anti-infantry is irrelevant when wraithguard don't have flamers by default, and their flamers are D-weapons instead of STR 4 AP 5.

I think that the better, more accurate consideration is this:

Does it take much more than 210 points of, say, sternguard veterans regularly to take out wraithguard?

Do wraithguard usually kill more than 210 points worth of models?

See above for where I've explained why this method of evaluating balance is fundamentally broken. I'm really getting tired of repeating the same explanation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
Presupposing perfect balance and equivalent player skill, the rock should be able to beat its points cost in scissors before papers covers rock.

Except, once again, real games aren't that simple. I've already explained how there are many ways in which that comparison doesn't work (keeping my rock unit far away from your paper, killing your paper asap, etc).

I grant the point. Note that I haven't made any mention of math-hammer with respect to wraithguard.

But you still continue to use the balance test of "two units stand next to each other and exchange fire, how many points are killed". That's just math-hammer without providing all of the numbers.

Also, you did mention math-hammer with respect to wraithguard:

A sternguard veteran firing hellfire rounds will kill, on average, a wraithguard on one shot out of every...(2/3 X 5/6 X 1/3 (10/48))...

five? One in five hellfire rounds kills a wraithguard.

I am dubious about this comparison.

According to your own previous claims marines are the standard that everything must be compared to, and the closest marine equivalent to wraithguard is a marine with a melta gun.

Peregrine wrote:Yes, which I clearly stated. The wraithguard pay 33% more points per model for:

* +2 toughness (usually resulting in more than a 33% increase in durability)

According to the Chaos Space Marines codex, +2 toughness is worth 6 ppm (mark of nurgle X 2).

24 + 6 = 30

Plus a better gun...

...plus specialist unit/no tax.

[How much is that worth?]

I see your point.

How much do you think a basic wraithguard model should cost, not assuming a d-scythe?

How much should the d-scythe upgrade cost?

See above for where I've explained why this method of evaluating balance is fundamentally broken. I'm really getting tired of repeating the same explanation.

At any rate, I'm willing to entertain both models.