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Eldar Cheese:

Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar

WraithKnights: Probably the most under-costed unit in the game atm. If you added 200pts to that model people would still take it.

WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s. Furthermore, they are infantry meaning they can get cover easily, and they have a 3+ save. Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz. WraithGuard are 32pts and come standard with a 3+ save, T6 and carry around a D strength weapon. Furthermore they can get to deep strike in with no scatter via webway portal.

Meganobz come standard at 40pts T4, 2+ save and a twin linked shoota (S4AP6) all at BS2 meaning you might get 1 hit. My unit can't run, can't deep strike and can only take an open topped transport to get where its going. Furthermore once I am on the table to do my job I have to actually get OUT of my vehicle, Wraithguard DONT.

So Because I have a better armor save and come with a powerklaw my guys are 8 pts more expensive then a T6 D toting infantrymen. Hmm no wrong.

What else is cheese in the Eldar Codex?

Well the characters for starters are generally better then anything I can take in my own Ork Codex to a significant degree.

How about Warp Spiders, how did that guy win the LVO this year? Was it with Wraith Knights or was it with a horde of Warp Spiders.

ohh and lets not forget they have Flyers with D WEAPONS!

And lets not forget the Eldar Psychic Shenanigans.

So anyway, yes the Eldar Codex is not only Cheddar it is Super, aged Cheddar. The kind you have to go to a specialty store to get.

Peregrine wrote:Except, once again, real games aren't that simple. I've already explained how there are many ways in which that comparison doesn't work (keeping my rock unit far away from your paper, killing your paper asap, etc).

Again, I grant the point, but only in terms of abstract math-hammering. This is why play-testing exists.

If, in the course of extensive play-testing, rock regularly can kill 200 points worth of scissors before paper beats rock, and this consistently, rock should cost 200 points.

Also, you did mention math-hammer with respect to wraithguard:

A sternguard veteran firing hellfire rounds will kill, on average, a wraithguard on one shot out of every...(2/3 X 5/6 X 1/3 (10/48))...

five? One in five hellfire rounds kills a wraithguard.

That's not just abstract math-hammering, though. How difficult is it to get a squad or 2 of sternguard within 24 inches of wraithguard to fire? 12 inches?

According to your own previous claims marines are the standard that everything must be compared to, and the closest marine equivalent to wraithguard is a marine with a melta gun.

Ok.

Again, I'm willing to grant both methods of comparison.


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SemperMortis wrote:
Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar

Why are windriders OP if we don't take their ability to spam scatterlasers into account?

WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s.

Krak missiles wound them on 2s and strip armor.

Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz.

That's not really a fair comparison. Aren't Mega Nobz melee oriented?

SemperMortis wrote:
Eldar Cheese:

Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar

WraithKnights: Probably the most under-costed unit in the game atm. If you added 200pts to that model people would still take it.

WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s. Furthermore, they are infantry meaning they can get cover easily, and they have a 3+ save. Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz. WraithGuard are 32pts and come standard with a 3+ save, T6 and carry around a D strength weapon. Furthermore they can get to deep strike in with no scatter via webway portal.

Meganobz come standard at 40pts T4, 2+ save and a twin linked shoota (S4AP6) all at BS2 meaning you might get 1 hit. My unit can't run, can't deep strike and can only take an open topped transport to get where its going. Furthermore once I am on the table to do my job I have to actually get OUT of my vehicle, Wraithguard DONT.

So Because I have a better armor save and come with a powerklaw my guys are 8 pts more expensive then a T6 D toting infantrymen. Hmm no wrong.

What else is cheese in the Eldar Codex?

Well the characters for starters are generally better then anything I can take in my own Ork Codex to a significant degree.

How about Warp Spiders, how did that guy win the LVO this year? Was it with Wraith Knights or was it with a horde of Warp Spiders.

ohh and lets not forget they have Flyers with D WEAPONS!

And lets not forget the Eldar Psychic Shenanigans.

So anyway, yes the Eldar Codex is not only Cheddar it is Super, aged Cheddar. The kind you have to go to a specialty store to get.

mmm, fresh salt! Comparing one of the weakest codexs in the game, to one of the top tier. 10/10.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Eldar Cheese:

Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar

WraithKnights: Probably the most under-costed unit in the game atm. If you added 200pts to that model people would still take it.

WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s. Furthermore, they are infantry meaning they can get cover easily, and they have a 3+ save. Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz. WraithGuard are 32pts and come standard with a 3+ save, T6 and carry around a D strength weapon. Furthermore they can get to deep strike in with no scatter via webway portal.

Meganobz come standard at 40pts T4, 2+ save and a twin linked shoota (S4AP6) all at BS2 meaning you might get 1 hit. My unit can't run, can't deep strike and can only take an open topped transport to get where its going. Furthermore once I am on the table to do my job I have to actually get OUT of my vehicle, Wraithguard DONT.

So Because I have a better armor save and come with a powerklaw my guys are 8 pts more expensive then a T6 D toting infantrymen. Hmm no wrong.

What else is cheese in the Eldar Codex?

Well the characters for starters are generally better then anything I can take in my own Ork Codex to a significant degree.

How about Warp Spiders, how did that guy win the LVO this year? Was it with Wraith Knights or was it with a horde of Warp Spiders.

ohh and lets not forget they have Flyers with D WEAPONS!

And lets not forget the Eldar Psychic Shenanigans.

So anyway, yes the Eldar Codex is not only Cheddar it is Super, aged Cheddar. The kind you have to go to a specialty store to get.

mmm, fresh salt! Comparing one of the weakest codexs in the game, to one of the top tier. 10/10.

Sorry, I am most familiar with my own codex hence the comparison. If you would like you can go compare these units to the SM equivalent, and I assure you the results are the same.

WraithGuard vs Terminators. guess who wins that competition?

SemperMortis wrote:WraithGuard vs Terminators. guess who wins that competition?

It's really not that comparable. Terminators have a stormbolter (24 inch range) and power fist. They have a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invuln. And they can deepstrike. Not to mention they can take shooty upgrades.


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Also, SemperMortis, I wish to point out:

Wraithguard cannot fire their weapons from within a wave serpent. Wave serpents don't have firing points. They have to disembark to fire.

They alone are not broken, but they are in a codex that has some of the most effective psychic phase (maybe other then deamons) and are battle brothers with DE. It does not exactly take a seasoned player to figure out extremely effective ways to use them. Also its bloody D weapons on models that cost about as much as a termi. I cant think of any thing that has that much damage output in the shooting phase that is infantry in any army that cost about the same points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, SemperMortis, I wish to point out:

Wraithguard cannot fire their weapons from within a wave serpent. Wave serpents don't have firing points. They have to disembark to fire.

correct me if I am wrong, but since they are allied with DE they can just hop a ride on DE OT transports and fire away without risking themselves to return fire. And at T6 with a 3+ save they aren't to concerned with the transport (that can jink) exploding because it wounds on a 6 and they still get that 3+ save.

SemperMortis wrote:correct me if I am wrong, but since they are allied with DE they can just hop a ride on DE OT transports and fire away without risking themselves to return fire. And at T6 with a 3+ save they aren't to concerned with the transport (that can jink) exploding because it wounds on a 6 and they still get that 3+ save.

At that point, you're not talking about the eldar codex. You're talking about Eldar + Dark Eldar.

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:correct me if I am wrong, but since they are allied with DE they can just hop a ride on DE OT transports and fire away without risking themselves to return fire. And at T6 with a 3+ save they aren't to concerned with the transport (that can jink) exploding because it wounds on a 6 and they still get that 3+ save.

At that point, you're not talking about the eldar codex. You're talking about Eldar + Dark Eldar.

So what? You don't play wraith guard alone, you play them in an army. And if in the army they are OP what difference does it make?

CrownAxe wrote:So what? You don't play wraith guard alone, you play them in an army. And if in the army they are OP what difference does it make?

Because then the problem isn't wraithguard. The problem is the fact that allied detachments are allowed and have such and such rules.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:So what? You don't play wraith guard alone, you play them in an army. And if in the army they are OP what difference does it make?

Because then the problem isn't wraithguard. The problem is the fact that allied detachments are allowed and have such and such rules.

Then what about just taking a wave serpant? why isn't that broken because that gets them in range

CrownAxe wrote:Then what about just taking a wave serpant? why isn't that broken because that gets them in range

They have to disembark to fire and that 110 point (or more) wave serpent is exposed to fire and assaults in the meantime.

Again, I repeat my original question:

How much damage do wraithguard actually do in the course of a game?

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Then what about just taking a wave serpant? why isn't that broken because that gets them in range

They have to disembark to fire and that 110 point (or more) wave serpent is exposed to fire and assaults in the meantime.

Again, I repeat my original question:

How much damage do wraithguard actually do in the course of a game?

The wave serpant has jink saves, a serpant shield, and can flat out to be in front the enemy on the first turn. Even when you do kill it the Wraithguard are now where they need to be and kill stuff

And you question is a bad question, there is no feasable way to answer it because their are too many variables.

CrownAxe wrote:The wave serpant has jink saves

4+ jink save. Which can't be used in close combat.

a serpant shield

5+ invuln. It's a 5+ invuln.

and can flat out to be in front the enemy on the first turn.

I don't think you can flat out and disembark in the same turn, can you?

Even when you do kill it the Wraithguard are now where they need to be and kill stuff

So what? Are the wraithguard going to kill 320+ points of models before they and the wave serpent get blown up?

And you question is a bad question, there is no feasable way to answer it because their are too many variables.

Have you played against wraithguard?

On average, how much damage have they actually done?

I've played against wraithguard.

You know me. I am quick to complain about things that I think are unfair or game breaking.

I don't think that wraithguard are particularly unfair or game breaking.

They could use a points increase (say, 40 ppm without d-scythes or 50 ppm with d-scythes).

But they're not game-breaking.


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Another point of view:

1 riptide = 180 points.

1 riptide with the 72" range gun = 185 points.

5 wraithguard with d-scythes = 210 points.

Ponder that.

One of these is actually OP and DRASTICALLY undercosted.

And it's not the wraithguard.

As usually your lack of knoweldge about the game is apparent. Serpant Shield is 2+ to ignore penetrating hits and make them just a glance. Meaning you can't get a lucky explode (its holo fields that are 5++). And with 4+ jink (which doesn't affect the wraithguard at all) it means you have to deal an average of 6hps at av12 to destroy the wave serpants to start hurting the wraithguard.

You don't seem to understand tactics either. I want you to assault the wave serpant to kill it. That means you the Wraithguard get out unharmed and you left a unit right in front of them to kill. Its why the wave serpant flats out to in front of the army so that when it does die the Wraithguard are right in front of the enemy forces to start deleting units.

And yes I've played against Wraithguard. The difference though is that my opponents are good at the game. As far as we can tell you've only played against wraithguard piloted by a player who isn't even good enough to space them out against a plasma cannon and that's beginner tactics. Play against a good player and get back to me.

And the Riptide isn't even OP you are just bad at the game.

 CrownAxe wrote:
As usually your lack of knoweldge about the game is apparent. Serpant Shield is 2+ to ignore penetrating hits and make them just a glance. Meaning you can't get a lucky explode (its holo fields that are 5++). And with 4+ jink (which doesn't affect the wraithguard at all) it means you have to deal an average of 6hps at av12 to destroy the wave serpants to start hurting the wraithguard.

I had serpent shields confused with holo shields. Mea culpa.

You don't seem to understand tactics either. I want you to assault the wave serpant to kill it. That means you the Wraithguard get out unharmed and you left a unit right in front of them to kill. Its why the wave serpant flats out to in front of the army so that when it does die the Wraithguard are right in front of the enemy forces to start deleting units.

And yes I've played against Wraithguard. The difference though is that my opponents are good at the game. As far as we can tell you've only played against wraithguard piloted by a player who isn't even good enough to space them out against a plasma cannon and that's beginner tactics. Play against a good player and get back to me.

And the Riptide isn't even OP you are just bad at the game.

Fine. You've played against wraithguard. Again, I repeat my question:

How much damage do they actually deal, on average, in your experience?

Edit:

The fact that you're unwilling to divulge this information, to my mind, provides evidence that the OP-ness of wraithguard is drastically overhyped.

How much damage do they actually deal, on average, in your experience?

I told you this is a stupid question because IT DEPENDS.

Wraithguard are about deleting a unit or two regarldess of what that unit. So it comes down to what that opponent brought. If that opponent brought a 500 point baneblade then the wraithguard will kill 500pts in its first turn of shooting easy. But if its some Gladius list spaming a bunch of cheap units to get free cheap transports shows up then the wraithguard are going to struggle to even make 100 pts back because the most expensive unit should even be 100 pts worth

Which is why its annoying to see you complain about everything because it only comes from your very narrow view of your 5ed SM army and has no scope on how the game actually plays.

CrownAxe wrote:I told you this is a stupid question because IT DEPENDS.

Except, given the wording of my question, it really doesn't.

YOU have played against wraithguard.

In YOUR experience with YOUR games in which wraithguard were used by YOUR oppponent(s), how much of YOUR stuff got blown up, on average?

Note the key words "YOUR" and "on average."

Wraithguard are about deleting a unit or two regarldess of what that unit.

Yes.

So it comes down to what that opponent brought. If that opponent brought a 500 point baneblade then the wraithguard will kill 500pts in its first turn of shooting easy.

Yes.

But if its some Gladius list spaming a bunch of cheap units to get free cheap transports shows up then the wraithguard are going to struggle to even make 100 pts back because the most expensive unit should even be 100 pts worth

Yes.

So what I'm getting from this is:

"Well, I was playing a list of like 5 imperial knights...waaaaaaah...boo hoo...however, in another game, I was playing orks. Not impressed in that game, really."

Yes, I freely admit. Wraithguard are OP if you rely on a low model count cheese list which does not revolve around fliers. At that point, however, you've pretty much revoked your right to complain about OP units.

Otherwise? Not so much.

 CrownAxe wrote:

How much damage do they actually deal, on average, in your experience?

I told you this is a stupid question because IT DEPENDS.

Wraithguard are about deleting a unit or two regarldess of what that unit. So it comes down to what that opponent brought. If that opponent brought a 500 point baneblade then the wraithguard will kill 500pts in its first turn of shooting easy. But if its some Gladius list spaming a bunch of cheap units to get free cheap transports shows up then the wraithguard are going to struggle to even make 100 pts back because the most expensive unit should even be 100 pts worth

Which is why its annoying to see you complain about everything because it only comes from your very narrow view of your 5ed SM army and has no scope on how the game actually plays.

Well I usually run a BW filled with Boyz a Warboss and a Painboy. So that is about a 160pt vehicle filled with 19 boyz (114pts) a Nob with a Powerklaw (thats another 35pts) A Warboss with a PowerKlaw, Eavy Armor and DLS so thats another 114pts I believe, and a painboy another 50 pts. So if the Wraithguard get out and flame that unit thats 450+pts dead in 1 turn as well as a Warlord Kill, a IC kill and 2 unit kills for a grand total of 4 Victory/Kill Points. Or conversely they might go after a grot unit and kill 35pts of grots who the Feth knows

They all die btw because of that wonderful rule (No Escape) which doomed open topped vehicles even further...good job GW.

(Side note I don't have my codex in front of me)

Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.

And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.

And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.

My experience against wraithguard is that they kill my best unit and then I waste an entire turn shooting at them because I don't want to assault them because Strength D Wall of Flame. So what happens is they kill my best unit in the game, (200-300pts sometimes more) then they proceed to soak up an entire turn of shooting. They then either get assaulted in the vain hope of tying them up so they can't shoot again or If i don't have anything close enough, the handful of survivors pop into their Transport and travel to my next expensive thing and kill that before they die.

So on average they not only make up their points and then some, they also soak up 1-2 turns of shooting which multiplies their value a significant amount.

An amusing story involving wraithguard:

In my last game against eldar, my opponent charged an assault marine or two (bolt pistol and chainsword) with one or two wraithguards (I forget how many).

Wraithguard failed to wound.

My assault marine(s) succeeded in hitting and wounding.

Wraithguard failed to save.

Chainsword to the face.

That actually happened.


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 CrownAxe wrote:
Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.

And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.

I don't see this as problematic.

It promotes a meta of "boys before toys."


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SemperMortis wrote:My experience against wraithguard is that they kill my best unit and then I waste an entire turn shooting at them because I don't want to assault them because Strength D Wall of Flame.

You play orks.

Declare your first assault with a throwaway unit. Force overwatch.

Declare your second assault with the unit you actually expect to kill the wraithguard with.

Wraithguard dead.

Traditio wrote:
An amusing story involving wraithguard:

In my last game against eldar, my opponent charged an assault marine or two (bolt pistol and chainsword) with one or two wraithguards (I forget how many).

Wraithguard failed to wound.

My assault marine(s) succeeded in hitting and wounding.

Wraithguard failed to save.

Chainsword to the face.

That actually happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.

And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.

I don't see this as problematic.

It promotes a meta of "boys before toys."

Tradito I don't know if your being purposefully obtuse or if your attempting to anger us IE Trolling. Boyz Before Toyz died in 5th edition and in 7th it is unfeasible. Having watched a 120 Boy green tide get whittled down to 65 models in a single turn of shooting proves that it is not feasible to run a list of boyz before toyz in the current meta.

So what your saying if your being serious which I doubt, is that in order to minimize the chances of being destroyed by D Scythe toting wraithguard is to run lots of cheap infantry, which if you haven't played against an eldar army recently are incredibly vulnerable to the plethora of S6+ shooting from an Eldar Army, not to mention the wraithknight who loves infantry, they stick to his boots perfectly.

I don't see this as problematic.

It promotes a meta of "boys before toys."

And thats just your opinion. Its not how the game actually plays out. Its not 5ed anymore

SemperMortis wrote:Tradito I don't know if your being purposefully obtuse or if your attempting to anger us IE Trolling. Boyz Before Toyz died in 5th edition and in 7th it is unfeasible. Having watched a 120 Boy green tide get whittled down to 65 models in a single turn of shooting proves that it is not feasible to run a list of boyz before toyz in the current meta.

So what your saying if your being serious which I doubt, is that in order to minimize the chances of being destroyed by D Scythe toting wraithguard is to run lots of cheap infantry, which if you haven't played against an eldar army recently are incredibly vulnerable to the plethora of S6+ shooting from an Eldar Army, not to mention the wraithknight who loves infantry, they stick to his boots perfectly.

That's not a problem with wraithguard.

That's a problem with wraithknights, scatter bikes and other broken elements of the 6th and 7th edition meta.

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:Tradito I don't know if your being purposefully obtuse or if your attempting to anger us IE Trolling. Boyz Before Toyz died in 5th edition and in 7th it is unfeasible. Having watched a 120 Boy green tide get whittled down to 65 models in a single turn of shooting proves that it is not feasible to run a list of boyz before toyz in the current meta.

So what your saying if your being serious which I doubt, is that in order to minimize the chances of being destroyed by D Scythe toting wraithguard is to run lots of cheap infantry, which if you haven't played against an eldar army recently are incredibly vulnerable to the plethora of S6+ shooting from an Eldar Army, not to mention the wraithknight who loves infantry, they stick to his boots perfectly.

That's not a problem with wraithguard.

That's a problem with wraithknights, scatter bikes and other broken elements of the 6th and 7th edition meta.

So because Wraithguard are Broken OP and your only solution that you can give me is to play more Boyz before toyz to lessen the impact it becomes the fault of Scatter bikes and wraithknights.

Your logic is astounding, completely wrong and terribly inaccurate, but astounding nonetheless.

SemperMortis wrote:So just waste another unit to soak up the overwatch to attack with another squad that will (NOT) kill the wraithguard in a single turn unless they are meganobz. S4 Boyz vs T6 Wraithguard = Wounding on 6s. teamed with that 3+ save means realistically they will kill 1-2 and the Nob with a PK will kill 1-2 if he is lucky.

Your solution is terrible.

Yeah, you can't expect the boys to be effective. If you have a nob with a powerklaw, however, you should eventually be able to kill those wraithguard.

In 1 round of combat? Maybe not.

Eventually?

Probably.

I am not convinced regular Wraithguard are that good. They tend to be pushed out of lists by Fire Dragons.

D-scythes are nasty but really that's a meta thing. Non-scatter deepstrike onto your opponent's not-invisible deathstar. They are comically dead and the game is probably over.

Against a more MSU style list however they can easily fail to make their points back or just break even. If your opponent can't reliably kill them then you are laughing but if they can't then their list probably has problems.

I thought the Wraithknight was broken on release and still reckon it is in a casual setting. As people say it should be 100+ points more expensive. For tournaments though I don't think its as broken - its just something that your list needs to be able to handle.

Really the problem with Eldar is that they are so reliable. I reckon the Aspect Warrior Formation for +1 BS is potentially the most broken formation, along with the always running 6. It means the Eldar player can go "this unit will get to there and it will almost certainly kill/cripple that unit unless the dice really go against me" and so on. Warp Spiders are probably the most egregious example but it applies across the board.

Necrons have this but in reverse. With some slightly above average dice rolling you can shrug off entire rounds of certain opponents shooting while you progressively take out their stuff.

Most of the weaker armies can't skew things so much in their favour. You will have that game where the dice are a bit below average and as a result you will lose. This makes it harder to win tournaments.

Name any other unit that does the same damage for 32 points first.

Traditio wrote:
I don't see this as problematic.

It promotes a meta of "boys before toys."

I see. So when the kind of list you want to play is at a disadvantage it's a major problem and your opponents all need to nerf their own lists so that you compete. But if the list someone else wants to play is at a disadvantage then that's ok, it's just how the meta is. Once again it is clear that your guiding principle here is "I play the game the right way, everyone else is having fun in the wrong ways".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the people who are not Traditio and may be having trouble following his argument, allow me to post the following quotes:

Traditio wrote:
What could possibly justify spending $140 on an imperial knight? Seriously. Give me a list of reasons why someone would buy one. For every reason you list, I will be able to tell you why there's something wrong with that person.

Traditio wrote:
You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?

In Traditio's opinion you are a bad person if you buy expensive 40k models. If your knight/stompa/etc is at a disadvantage then that's a good thing, because you shouldn't have bought it in the first place.