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Fire dragons, any other melta unit? Assuming you're talking about the single shot variant, as the D-flamers are actually 42ppm.

They're about as hard to kill as a tyranid Mc. Wether they come in a cardboard transport or with an allied archon, that's about 300 points spent to kill a unit and die. I think there are more efficient ways to do this, the wraithguard unit is more of a deepstriking, slow and short-ranged distraction carnifex (albeit a lethal one).

An Archon to do that job is less than 100 points. So it is more like 250 points to point at a unit and watch it die.

Ignoring the wraith-war going on, I'd say the following units are OP:

Warp Spiders - I think everybody already knows this, but they're stupid. 19pts for a crazy maneuverable unit (movement 6+2D6, run up to 6, assault phase jump 2d6, enemy turn jump 2d6 every time they shoot you), with a gun that is effective against anything short of a vehicle with decent armour. If you manage to assault them, they have power armour and hit and run, so they have a chance of getting away, depending on what you managed to assault them with. Also sixes to wound become ap1, so they can shred elite infantry with a bit of extra luck too (or just weight of fire...). Taking a 10pt exarch upgrade also means they can't be pinned, fall back, or anything else.

Farseer - Less complaints about this guy, but I think he's a little bit cheap for the psychic power that he brings. Other psykers tend to be better fighters, but you're not usually bringing them for that, while the farseer gets his runes, his ghosthelm, and some great disciplines to choose from. I'm not sure by how much, but a slight cost increase would be good.

Apart from that, the bs5 aspect formation is pretty stupid and I wish it wasn't there, but...that's about it. Eldar infantry tend to fold pretty quickly when pressure is applied, and come at marine prices+, so I don't think they're all that overpowered.

Then again, too much time on the dark side may have coloured my perception, so I'd like to hear what other people think is OP in the codex!

Its 40k so it depends

Are you comparing the Eldar Codex to:

Other 7.5 edition Codexes like Marines, Necrons or Tau? Its probably ok

7th edition Codex's that got royally shafted by 7th and are laughable by comparison to Eldar and the other 7.5 Codex's....

Legacy Codex's that vary in quality between a bit better than 7th and terrible - Chaos and a few others...........

The 7.5 Codex's are actually not badly balanced against each other and internally vary - Eldar being probably the best here in that pretty much everything is good too awesome/OP. Playing against them with lesser codex's is an uphill struggle due to not only unit quality disparity but the recent trend for the formations to give free stuff.

There probably should be a table somewhere that tells you how many extra points the 7th and Legacy Codex's should get when playing against power codex's to compensate fro all the free stuff they get in terms of rules, free units, abilities etc etc.....

Anything else is like playing chess where one player gets to swap his Pawns for Queens...............

Yes they are D weapons of anykind should not be in base 40k at all, it has it's place in Apoc but elsewhere its just a festival of stupid

I have trouble understanding why Wraithguards wouldn't be considered a very strong choice ?

32ppm for a D-1 Flamer, that Ignores Armour being AP2, Ignores Cover (!), can ride in a Wave Serpent for precision Deep Strike and Wounds "everything" on a 3+ with each Wound inflicting 1 to 3 wounds/Hull Points.
It's also T6, and T6 1W is super annoying to deal with. Not impossible, but annoying.

Let's compare what 32ppm gives other Codexes :
- 1 Basic Terminator
- 1 Rhino
- A Ravenwing Black Knight
- 2 Marines

It's definitely a very strong unit, I don't get the QQ about "Wraithguards are balanced please buff".

Are you willing to give them a standard dedicated transport? (I'm guessing no, because you argue tacticals are UP when you don't give them a standard rhino and drop pod.)

Take them in a wave serpent, aka the most durable basic DT in the game, and then they carry around a threat of complete obliteration to literally anything from massed guardsmen to superheavies.

Is it as bonkers as Scatbikes? No, because they don't just automatically make their points back by dakka-Ing more points than their worth from across the table.

 Swampmist wrote:
Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.

Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.

My Warp Talons with scatter, no guns, no grenades, no 18 inch move, costs double the amount of your "expensive Hawks" count say HI!

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
No, none. Eldar are fine. Learn to play and beat what they have or go color in another book

Is that really your response? Git Gud? Eldar are broken as feth and need to be toned down. Apparently, you and "Tacticals should get Gauss" up there should get a little perspective.

XvReaperXv wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.

Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.

My Warp Talons with scatter, no guns, no grenades, no 18 inch move, costs double the amount of your "expensive Hawks" count say HI!

Honestly, it's really not fair for us to compare anything from our CSM codex to even Orks or Tyranids & the other bottom feeders... Our book is still a 5th ed book playing with 4th ed pts costing.

When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.

Unfortunately, his weapons are both 'Heavy' type, and the model lacks Relentless, limiting his shooting potential to basically acting as a static turret in cover of some kind...
He also counts as an Herald, meaning it's far harder to spam them, due to being limited to 0-4/HQ slot. Otherwise, they require the use of the Warpflame Host formation, that will include a 'Herald tax', but can spam up to 9 of them.
(note too, that the formation bonus will add +1S to their shooting attacks!)

All of their attacks however also carry the double-edged Warpflame rule, meaning you need to spam/focus fire down a single target until it's completely dead or utterly crippled.


So really, the only other choice that Chaos has that's in any way comparable to a Wraithguard unit, is to go back to the non-functional CSM codex, and take either a unit of Chosen w/4-5 Meltaguns/Plasma guns OR a unit of Havocs with only 4 Melta/Plasma gun slots.
The Chosen unit will cost 130pts + Rhino = 165pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 185pts if Plasma is chosen)
The Havoc unit will cost 115pts + Rhino = 150pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 170pts if going Plasma)

Neither of those comes close to the capabilities of even standard, non-Scythe Wraithguard!
Hell, the much harder to use close combat Wraithblades will likely still out-kill the CSM options!

Experiment 626 wrote:

XvReaperXv wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.

Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.

My Warp Talons with scatter, no guns, no grenades, no 18 inch move, costs double the amount of your "expensive Hawks" count say HI!

Honestly, it's really not fair for us to compare anything from our CSM codex to even Orks or Tyranids & the other bottom feeders... Our book is still a 5th ed book playing with 4th ed pts costing.

When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.

Unfortunately, his weapons are both 'Heavy' type, and the model lacks Relentless, limiting his shooting potential to basically acting as a static turret in cover of some kind...
He also counts as an Herald, meaning it's far harder to spam them, due to being limited to 0-4/HQ slot. Otherwise, they require the use of the Warpflame Host formation, that will include a 'Herald tax', but can spam up to 9 of them.
(note too, that the formation bonus will add +1S to their shooting attacks!)

All of their attacks however also carry the double-edged Warpflame rule, meaning you need to spam/focus fire down a single target until it's completely dead or utterly crippled.


So really, the only other choice that Chaos has that's in any way comparable to a Wraithguard unit, is to go back to the non-functional CSM codex, and take either a unit of Chosen w/4-5 Meltaguns/Plasma guns OR a unit of Havocs with only 4 Melta/Plasma gun slots.
The Chosen unit will cost 130pts + Rhino = 165pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 185pts if Plasma is chosen)
The Havoc unit will cost 115pts + Rhino = 150pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 170pts if going Plasma)

Neither of those comes close to the capabilities of even standard, non-Scythe Wraithguard!
Hell, the much harder to use close combat Wraithblades will likely still out-kill the CSM options!

Oh I know it's not fair, but to see anyone complaining that anything in the Eldar codex isn't good needs a reality check lol.

Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.

On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Fire dragons, any other melta unit? Assuming you're talking about the single shot variant, as the D-flamers are actually 42ppm.

They're about as hard to kill as a tyranid Mc. Wether they come in a cardboard transport or with an allied archon, that's about 300 points spent to kill a unit and die. I think there are more efficient ways to do this, the wraithguard unit is more of a deepstriking, slow and short-ranged distraction carnifex (albeit a lethal one).

You understand that as soon as something actually becomes lethal, it ceases to be a "distraction carnifex" right?

Distraction Carnifex is a term used for a scary looking unit that is ultimately ineffectual.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.

On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.

But really how do you tone down a Codex that is filled with cheese?

Wraith Guard
Wraith Knights
Wind Riders
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
Psychic Shenanigans.

In any other codex you would base your entire army around a similar unit.

So basically your opponent has to take Dire Avengers and Rangers and maybe some fire prisms, Ohh and howling banshees. So basically the only way to "Tone down" the eldar codex is to take a bunch of aspect warriors, and even then its still a good list that is competitive against friendly gamers.

From a tyranid players perspective, wraith guard are a hard counter to any walking MC (meaning most of the codex).
Swarm units are the obvious answer to them, but the rest of the eldar army has little trouble dealing with those.

I've played against the Wraith Host formation many times.
Giving them battle focus gives them a great threat range, along with the ability to JSJ. They can cover ground surprisingly fast (particularly if with a spirit seer who rolled Quicken), and this is just on foot, without a wave serpent to assist them.

More so than most units, flyrant spam is about the only way for tyranids to deal with them. Even then you have to be damn careful about placement. Re-rolls to hit within 18" of the spirit seer give them a decent chance of scoring a hit on a flyer, and then you're only a 6 away from losing your model. I've lost many a tyrant to these guys.

Not to mention the 'delete any one unit' teamup with dark eldar.

More than anything else, wraith guard are what forced me to change my regular lists to flyrant spam.

My experiences with wraithguard have been hit or miss. I don't think they usually work very well. They portal in kill one thing and then die. They compete in the same space as fire dragons, and I just always find myself wanting fire dragons instead. They both kill imperial knights just fine, and I don't need them for much else.

If anything I think it speaks to the ridiculousness of the webway portal. Fire dragons and wraithguard would both just be okay by themselves, but the archon makes them unstoppable assassins. Most of the units you try to compare wraithguard to would be just as overpowered if they could also team up with an archon. I think this more points to the archon being overpowered than the things he brings in.

Wave serpents are also very good but they are expensive. A unit of wraithguard with scythes and a serpent is 320 points. It damn better be hard to deal with at that point cost. I wish I could just stick them in rhino's. This unit costs as much as 3 units of swooping hawks/warp spiders/fire dragons. Nearly as much as 12 scatter bikes, and more than a wraithknight. Even still it tends to feel like a one and done unit, and personally I don't like spending over three hundred points on something like that.

Its not to say that the unit doesn't have amazing potential. It's got way higher high moments then other comparable units. To give an example I had one unit lay there templates across a riptide, a building fire point filled with fire warriors, and another unit of fire warriors on top of the building with their devilish. They killed all of it. This is the kind of amazing thing this unit can do compared to fire dragons. This doesn't happen in your usual game though, and it definitely does not happen enough to justify the cost. 9/10 I'll take the cheap reliable fire dragon. If eldar had access to stern guard, or imperial guard melta vets, or crisis suits I would end up taking them instead as well.

wraithguard by themselves are not overpowered, good, yes, deadly, yes, but so short ranged and vulnerable to assault.

Bringing in the WWP shenanigans is pointless because then you look at every other unit with allied cheese options, plus not everyone plays them that way.

I actually think the Wraith host is a great way to play them because now you have Battle Focus, plus the option of getting access to a psychic power or warlord trait that allows you to add 3" to that run and shoot.

The wave serpent certainly gets you where you need to be, but it's often a one shot deal, but yes, you will more than likely kill the intended target. Vs some armies that's no big deal, but vs others that rely on that big bad knight etc, ouch.

I think that wraith scythes are a different beast entirely. Their ability to prevent assault or ignore cover (sorry Ravenwing) makes them really nasty.

Bottom line, the wraiths played like a wraith army are fluffy and not overpowered (except the wraithknight which is way too cheap but preaching to the choir here), but this can be abused with many other options available through DE etc. Imperial players should not complain though, their ability to ally and take grav-spam (which slaughters wraiths) is on par with anything the wraithguard can do.

Wow. This is sad. As an owner of a wraithguard army they aren't anywhere near broken.

I bet I could make a ranger army and still get told its broken.

SemperMortis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.

On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.

But really how do you tone down a Codex that is filled with cheese?

Wraith Guard
Wraith Knights
Wind Riders
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
Psychic Shenanigans.

In any other codex you would base your entire army around a similar unit.

So basically your opponent has to take Dire Avengers and Rangers and maybe some fire prisms, Ohh and howling banshees. So basically the only way to "Tone down" the eldar codex is to take a bunch of aspect warriors, and even then its still a good list that is competitive against friendly gamers.

Not at all. It's really just as simple as doing things like;
- Only giving 1 per 3 Jetbikes a weapon upgrade. (or else marking out 1 per 3 as actually having the relevant Scat Laser/Shuricannon if the unit is built all upgraded - hence why magnets are so awesome!)

- Not taking any Aspect Host formations. (or even formations in general)

- Only taking 0-1 of things like Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, etc... and not always bringing their most optimised loadout. (same goes for things like Riptides, which are far less obnoxious when running the Heavy Burst cannon vs. Ion)

- Not using D-scythes.

- Don't abuse the obvious allied shenanigans, such as the WWP auto-delivery system.

Same deal goes for my Chaos army in return... If my opponent is being generous enough to not take any D-scythes, drastically limit their Scatbikes and no Warp Spiders or Wraithknight at all, then it's only fair that I agree to not take Precognition on my LoC, cap all my invulns at no better than 3++ regardless of augment sources, new Relics use the same rules as all other Hellforged Artifacts, and Horrors can only take from the Lore of Tzeentch.

Boom. Simple scaled back 40k.

Experiment 626 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.

On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.

But really how do you tone down a Codex that is filled with cheese?

Wraith Guard
Wraith Knights
Wind Riders
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
Psychic Shenanigans.

In any other codex you would base your entire army around a similar unit.

So basically your opponent has to take Dire Avengers and Rangers and maybe some fire prisms, Ohh and howling banshees. So basically the only way to "Tone down" the eldar codex is to take a bunch of aspect warriors, and even then its still a good list that is competitive against friendly gamers.

Not at all. It's really just as simple as doing things like;
- Only giving 1 per 3 Jetbikes a weapon upgrade. (or else marking out 1 per 3 as actually having the relevant Scat Laser/Shuricannon if the unit is built all upgraded - hence why magnets are so awesome!)

- Not taking any Aspect Host formations. (or even formations in general)

- Only taking 0-1 of things like Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, etc... and not always bringing their most optimised loadout. (same goes for things like Riptides, which are far less obnoxious when running the Heavy Burst cannon vs. Ion)

- Not using D-scythes.

- Don't abuse the obvious allied shenanigans, such as the WWP auto-delivery system.

Same deal goes for my Chaos army in return... If my opponent is being generous enough to not take any D-scythes, drastically limit their Scatbikes and no Warp Spiders or Wraithknight at all, then it's only fair that I agree to not take Precognition on my LoC, cap all my invulns at no better than 3++ regardless of augment sources, new Relics use the same rules as all other Hellforged Artifacts, and Horrors can only take from the Lore of Tzeentch.

Boom. Simple scaled back 40k.

See this? This is a good response.. Thank you sure. Most people would DEMAND an eldar player cap himself, and then load his army with absolute cheese of Gouda possible in their army. Thank you for understanding nerfing goes both ways.

Like everyone else I agree that Wraithknights, Wind Riders and Warp Spiders are all undercosted by some way. Wraitguard however are in an unusual position.

There best use, IMO, is as an anti-Deathstar/GMC/Supe Heavy unit, though Fire Dragons are even better against the Super Heavies. Frankly in my experience being T6 with a 3+ and 1W makes them surprisingly fragile, most other units in the game that are in the T5/6 range tend to have mutliple wounds and access to things like Feel no Pain or invulns. Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire. That means you want to put them in Wave Serpants but a lot of armies have more than a few answers to bringing down a WS in a single turn. The other alternative is allying them with Dark Eldar for Raiders, which can have an excellent 3+ jink but also can be valnurable to a far wider range of weapons fire due to AV10 and are much easier to get the one-shot against being open topped, or an Archon/Haemonculus/Succubus with Web Way Portal for no scatter Deep Strike. This is frankly more of a problem with Craftworlds and DE being BB's instead of Allies of Convenience which would make more sense. However in this case the IoM is just as guilty, if not more so, of allied super deathstars.

Personally I'd like to see a points increas to 40ppm with an extra wound and reduce the Wraithcannon and D-Scythe back to their old profile. They'd still be very nasty, but a bit more expensive and more durable so that they could be more than a one and done unit.

Or Eldar players could be really friendly and just run massed Wraithblades and consign themselves to never winning another game.

You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

Martel732 wrote:
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

No, you can't.

Experiment wrote:When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.

Right off hand, it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a 3 wound model to a 1 wound model.

At any rate, what do you think is a fair points cost for the wraithguard without d-scythe? With d-scythe?

Martel732 wrote:
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

Not at all. For instance, blood Angels have some of the strongest marines out of any marine faction and usually gets all the new toys first. How is their power house effect fair to other marines?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

No, you can't.

What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Fire dragons, any other melta unit?

I agree that fire dragons need a mild points increase.

That said,why you think they are OP?

They're about as hard to kill as a tyranid Mc.

No, they aren't. They only have 1 wound. They get vaporized by krak missiles.

Any infantry unit that's capable of slaying any potential unit in the game in a single round of fire at minimum size has balance issues.

Are they impossible to stop? No. But they were already considered fine with S4 AP2 flamers or S10 guns, the absurd upgrade to Strength D was simply insane and is absolutely broken.

Same thing with Fire Dragons. Nobody thought they were undergunned or overcosted before, getting the additional +1 on the damage chart on top of AP1, and then formations to make them BS5 was completely unwarranted and makes them way too reliable.

The whole book is filled with these kinds of buffs that make Eldar units just that much better than any possible equivalent in other army books, for no appreciable downside.

Martel732 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

No, you can't.

What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.

They also have the honour of being killed by bolters.

Got to love threads made by Traditio.

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