Wraithguard and non scatbike/wraithknight Eldar Units OP?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Experiment 626**

Traditio wrote:
Experiment wrote:When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.

Right off hand, it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a 3 wound model to a 1 wound model.

At any rate, what do you think is a fair points cost for the wraithguard without d-scythe? With d-scythe?

I said, closest, 'like' unit.
T4/W3/5++ is roughly on par in terms of overall survivability to T6/3+, unless you hit the T4 model with S8+. (which honestly, isn't nearly the big threat anymore, as high RoF S6/7 is the new hotness)

Hence why Exalted Flamers are the closest unit-to-unit comparison Chaos has to Wraithguard.

**Martel732**

pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

No, you can't.

What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.

They also have the honour of being killed by bolters.

That hard counters me then, because i bring as few bolters as possible.

**Traditio**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Experiment wrote:When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.

Right off hand, it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a 3 wound model to a 1 wound model.

At any rate, what do you think is a fair points cost for the wraithguard without d-scythe? With d-scythe?

I said, closest, 'like' unit.
T4/W3/5++ is roughly on par in terms of overall survivability to T6/3+, unless you hit the T4 model with S8+. (which honestly, isn't nearly the big threat anymore, as high RoF S6/7 is the new hotness)

Hence why Exalted Flamers are the closest unit-to-unit comparison Chaos has to Wraithguard.

So what do you think is an appropriate points cost?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Imateria wrote:
Like everyone else I agree that Wraithknights, Wind Riders and Warp Spiders are all undercosted by some way. Wraitguard however are in an unusual position.

There best use, IMO, is as an anti-Deathstar/GMC/Supe Heavy unit, though Fire Dragons are even better against the Super Heavies. Frankly in my experience being T6 with a 3+ and 1W makes them surprisingly fragile, most other units in the game that are in the T5/6 range tend to have mutliple wounds and access to things like Feel no Pain or invulns. Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire. That means you want to put them in Wave Serpants but a lot of armies have more than a few answers to bringing down a WS in a single turn. The other alternative is allying them with Dark Eldar for Raiders, which can have an excellent 3+ jink but also can be valnurable to a far wider range of weapons fire due to AV10 and are much easier to get the one-shot against being open topped, or an Archon/Haemonculus/Succubus with Web Way Portal for no scatter Deep Strike. This is frankly more of a problem with Craftworlds and DE being BB's instead of Allies of Convenience which would make more sense. However in this case the IoM is just as guilty, if not more so, of allied super deathstars.

Personally I'd like to see a points increas to 40ppm with an extra wound and reduce the Wraithcannon and D-Scythe back to their old profile. They'd still be very nasty, but a bit more expensive and more durable so that they could be more than a one and done unit.

Or Eldar players could be really friendly and just run massed Wraithblades and consign themselves to never winning another game.

Fire Dragons are absolutely NOT better than Wraithguard when dealing with SHV/GMCs.

**Pain4Pleasure**

Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?

No, you can't.

What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.

They also have the honour of being killed by bolters.

That hard counters me then, because i bring as few bolters as possible.

I noticed you're ignoring the OPness I pointed out for armies such as blood Angels.

**Scott-S6**

Traditio wrote:

Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.

No, you didn't kill that model with a 29 point marine - you killed him with a whole squad while the rest of the squad did nothing.

**cosmicsoybean**

To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.

**Traditio**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.

No, you didn't kill that model with a 29 point marine - you killed him with a whole squad while the rest of the squad did nothing.

A 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon is an 85 point unit. Kill 2 wraithguard with d-scythes, and I've basically made the points back.

In a gladius strikeforce (because of combat doctrines), there's a very strong possibility of that happening.

**Pain4Pleasure**

Traditio wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
Traditio wrote:

Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.

No, you didn't kill that model with a 29 point marine - you killed him with a whole squad while the rest of the squad did nothing.

A 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon is an 85 point unit. Kill 2 wraithguard with d-scythes, and I've basically made the points back.

In a gladius strikeforce (because of combat doctrines), there's a very strong possibility of that happening.

The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in

**Traditio**

Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in

As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.

**Tactical_Spam**

Traditio wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in

As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.

They aren't as broken as you think.

**pm713**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in

As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.

They aren't as broken as you think.

I'd say it's more some combinations are OP but most end up ok e.g. Wolves and Eldar.

**Tactical_Spam**

pm713 wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in

As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.

They aren't as broken as you think.

I'd say it's more some combinations are OP but most end up ok e.g. Wolves and Eldar.

When people say "The Armies of the Imperium are OP because of Allies" they really mean "I hate Thunderwolves." There should have been some 2 detachment limit or something... like ITC was going to do.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Traditio wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in

As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.

Wraithguard are stupid even without Raiders or WWP. Serpents are durable enough to get them where needed.

**pm713**

Serpents cost a fortune and then get in the way of templates if you use scythes. They aren't THAT bad.

**Slayer-Fan123**

That's assuming you're using Scythes. Stock, Wraithguard are stupid. With Scythes, Wraithguard are stupid. You're basically asking yourself if you want more accuracy for a shorter range. Both weapons are just THAT good.

**Vaktathi**

cosmicsoybean wrote:
To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.

Hrm, that's what everyone was saying at the beginning of 7th with the "great toning down" that the 2014 books all got. Then GW reversed course, as they always do every 12-24 months. The whole "wait for your update" thing has never borne out properly in any edition.

Even relative to the other 7E armies, Eldar are placing at most tournaments in larger proportion than their contemporaries.

pm713 wrote:
Serpents cost a fortune

And deliver value every bit equal to their cost

and then get in the way of templates if you use scythes.

That's a simple matter of positioning, not hard at all to work around.

**Experiment 626**

Vaktathi wrote:
cosmicsoybean wrote:
To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
Hrm, that's what everyone was saying at the beginning of 7th with the "great toning down" that the 2014 books all got. Then GW reversed course, as they always do every 12-24 months. The whole "wait for your update" thing has never borne out properly in any edition.

Even relative to the other 7E armies, Eldar are placing at most tournaments in larger proportion than their contemporaries.

And late 2015/early 2016 appears to be the "who cares about codex updates? campaigns & lazy rush jobs are good enough!" style of rules writing...

Look at Guard & Orks - their 'curion detachments are ridiculous in terms of their basic requirements, and both really have a totally phoned-in feel to them.

Daemons at least got a frankly god-tier level of basic detachment bonuses - right up their with Necrons in terms their OP'ness. Their formations however are overall average to poor to downright OMG!Useless!lolz!.
So overall, the Daemonic Incursion works out to be overall balanced, since while the benefits are outstanding, the 'Tax' one has to pay is very real, though not completely absurd in the manner of Orks/Guard.

**cosmicsoybean**

Vaktathi wrote:
cosmicsoybean wrote:
To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
Hrm, that's what everyone was saying at the beginning of 7th with the "great toning down" that the 2014 books all got. Then GW reversed course, as they always do every 12-24 months. The whole "wait for your update" thing has never borne out properly in any edition.

Even relative to the other 7E armies, Eldar are placing at most tournaments in larger proportion than their contemporaries.

.

Well so far every 7.5 codex has been godtier. Spess mureens now are fighting for #1 spot, eldar, tau, necrons are all way up there, space wolfs are up there now too, daemons......
GW is pushing the OP codex stream to sell models, which is working quite well for them. And of course they are still placing high, everyone brings them in, so there are more players doing well with them.

**SemperMortis**

Imateria wrote:
Like everyone else I agree that Wraithknights, Wind Riders and Warp Spiders are all undercosted by some way. Wraitguard however are in an unusual position.

There best use, IMO, is as an anti-Deathstar/GMC/Supe Heavy unit, though Fire Dragons are even better against the Super Heavies. Frankly in my experience being T6 with a 3+ and 1W makes them surprisingly fragile, most other units in the game that are in the T5/6 range tend to have mutliple wounds and access to things like Feel no Pain or invulns. Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire. That means you want to put them in Wave Serpants but a lot of armies have more than a few answers to bringing down a WS in a single turn. The other alternative is allying them with Dark Eldar for Raiders, which can have an excellent 3+ jink but also can be valnurable to a far wider range of weapons fire due to AV10 and are much easier to get the one-shot against being open topped, or an Archon/Haemonculus/Succubus with Web Way Portal for no scatter Deep Strike. This is frankly more of a problem with Craftworlds and DE being BB's instead of Allies of Convenience which would make more sense. However in this case the IoM is just as guilty, if not more so, of allied super deathstars.

Personally I'd like to see a points increas to 40ppm with an extra wound and reduce the Wraithcannon and D-Scythe back to their old profile. They'd still be very nasty, but a bit more expensive and more durable so that they could be more than a one and done unit.

Or Eldar players could be really friendly and just run massed Wraithblades and consign themselves to never winning another game.

Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire.

So your T6 models with a 3+ armor save are scared of a S4 Ap5 rapid fire bolter? Lets do some math hammer on how stupid that is. 25 Space Marines double tap a unit of Wraith Guard at BS4. Thats 50 shots and 32hits of those 32 hits thats 5 wounds (takes a 6 to wound) of those 5 wounds you are likely to fail 1 maybe 2 at most going by statistics. So your afraid of bolter fire while running a Wraith Host? Either your doing it wrong or your full of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cosmicsoybean wrote:
To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.

Sorry I hate to contradict you again, but I got my 7.5 update, I even had my 7.0 codex before that. And guess what? nothing in my update puts me even remotely close to the level of Eldar Shenanigans.

But im sure I just don't know how to play my army because I need to L2P, so please tell me how I could turn the Ork Waaagh supplement into a list to beat the average Eldar list.

**kburn**

So you're unhappy that a model with very strong survivability and the ultimate weapon costs "a lot"? You're also unhappy they got wiped out by a weapon that was specifically designed just to kill troops like them, especially if they are positioned badly?

Let's not kid ourselves. In a marine army, this will cost 60 points minimum, and in a tyranid army, it would be more to the tune of 250 points. Just compare a WG to a terminator, for 8 more points, you get an increased save, much worse toughness, and infinitely worse weapons.

Wraithguard needs to triple or quadruple their points to be considered merely "very strong" and not outright OP. I'd personally price them around 150pts to even be remotely fair to other armies. You get a troop which is extremely resilient, with the ultimate gun, that can be transported extremely well in an army with the ultimate mobility. How on earth does anyone price them at 32pp is beyond me.

**LinkXx**

Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.

**Pain4Pleasure**

LinkXx wrote:
Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.

Agreed. Stomp and feel no pain make him under costed. If he was not a gc I would say his points are fine, even if he still had all the D

**Traditio**

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Agreed. Stomp and feel no pain make him under costed. If he was not a gc I would say his points are fine, even if he still had all the D

It's not just stomp and feel no pain. It's also the fact that sniper rounds and poison only hurt him on 6s.

But yes, I agree, 300 points would probably be about right if he weren't a GMC.

He should cost 300 instead of 295, though...simply because it's a nice round number.

**Grumblewartz**

People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.

**Traditio**

Grumblewartz wrote:
People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.

Webway portals + wraithguard isn't evidence that wraithguard, considered in and of themselves, are OP.

Even if the combination is OP, the constituents of that combination need not be OP.

And Grumblewartz, if you don't like my threads, you are more than welcome to avoid them.

**Azreal13**

Grumblewartz wrote:
People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.

Reposting for effect.

**Traditio**

There have been roughly three arguments in this thread to "show" that wraithguard are OP:

1. They are undercosted relative to similar units (which aren't actually that similar, when you really think about it).

2.They do ridiculous amounts of damage when combined with [insert something that's not even in the Eldar codex].

3. They are infantry with d-weapons [never mind their range and lack of mobility] (hardly a convincing argument).

When I asked how wraithguard actually do on the table top, one of the two people who actually bothered answering basically said that the possibilities range from:

1. "HE KILLED MY OP DEATH STAR OF DEATH!* WAAAAAH."

to

2. "I run cheap MSU. He didn't even make a hundred points back before I killed his vacuum cleaners."

*Which I shouldn't have brought to the table in the first place if I was at all concerned about units being OP; in all fairness, I've revoked my right to complain.

**SemperMortis**

Grumblewartz wrote:
People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.

This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.

Anyway, onto this response

Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.

They do have maneuverability issues, because they are infantry not bikes or vehicles or flyers. So that is kind of common sense, not really a downside.

Survive ability? They are T6 with a 3+ armor save, they are extremely survivable except against above average guns. The basic weapon in this game is still a S4 weapon (IE Shootas, Bolters and such) Those weapons only wound on 6s. Tau firewarriors can wound on 5s which is a bit better.

As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It doesn't matter if they're weak to MSU, because Scatterbikes can kill anything else.