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To be fair, Cents have split fire. It's more like a 81*2 to 162, and that is clearly a worse case scenario.

I haven't reviewed the new psyker powers so I can't comment on their power levels.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.

You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.

A couple hundred points of cents plus libby and a pod to kill 81 points of scatbikes? There's someone doing something wrong here, but I don't think it's him.

It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.

And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".

(note: as a tzeentch daemon player, I still firmly believe that 2+ re-rolled saves are sheer stupidity. nothing should ever get rules to make it effectively immortal! )

It's a huge deal for lists without D-cannons, d-scythes, and Str D HTH weapons. Oh wait.... The marine powers are catastrophic for Orks and Dark Eldar, but Eldar have no room to complain about what gets shoveled their way.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.

You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.

A couple hundred points of cents plus libby and a pod to kill 81 points of scatbikes? There's someone doing something wrong here, but I don't think it's him.

It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.

And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".

(note: as a tzeentch daemon player, I still firmly believe that 2+ re-rolled saves are sheer stupidity. nothing should ever get rules to make it effectively immortal! )

I think no one cares about SM getting the re-rolls due to the recent ITC nerfings. We've had 2+ rerollables for awhile now thanks to the stupid RW rules (as a DA player I hate them more because that's the only reason people even play DA now), but the ITC nerfed them almost as soon as they came out.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a huge deal for lists without D-cannons, d-scythes, and Str D HTH weapons. Oh wait.... The marine powers are catastrophic for Orks and Dark Eldar, but Eldar have no room to complain about what gets shoveled their way.

Except for every single Eldar army that hasn't loaded up on lots and lots of Wraith units...

Chaos however are the most boned by the new marine rules though, because apparently Daemons really needed a swift kick to the junk.

Akiasura wrote:Maybe you should define similar enough to count.

Right off hand, I really don't know the answer to that. Again, let's consider what a wraithguard is:

It's a T6 infantry with otherwise space marines stats and saves (except S 5 instead of 4) with what is, for all intents and purposes, an extremely short range auto kill gun.

There's nothing else that's really like it in the game.

You'd be hard pressed to find an infantry unit that has a Str D flamer, especially one with a defensive stat line like Wraithguard. So if your requirements are strict, we aren't going to be able to compare anything here.

Yes. The wraithguard is kind of a "snowflake" unit in 40k. It's very different from other things in the game.

If I were absolutely forced to compare it to something else, it would be grav centurions, but even there, the comparison just falls short. Grav centurions are 2+ armor save, T 5 and 2 wounds, not to mention that the grav cannon has much longer range.

Again, the only delivery method in the Eldar codex for wraithguard is a wave serpent. Grav centurions? Not so much.

If you want that comparison, a grav centurion is 80 ppm. But that also includes a hurricane bolter (which can be upgraded to a missile launcher).

Would you consider wraithguard better or worse than grav centurions?

Technically this is true, but you never see Centurion Devs looked at in a vacuum. Without transports or a teleporter, they are pretty bad. With a Teleporter, they become one of the most OP units in the game, and can be ramped up from there pretty easily.
Are you going to suggest that Centurion Devs are a bad unit?

No. I'd simply assert that Centurion devastators aren't OP. Centurion devastators + some force multiplier or delivery system is OP.

By your metric, markerlights and psykers are mostly garbage, since we can only look at them and not how they interact with other units. Is that an argument you want to make?

Markerlights and psykers, for the most part, are force multipliers by design. As such, their utility can be considered only relatively to other things.

Centurions and wraithguard? Not so much.

At any rate, I think that the first point (i.e., the comparison to grav centurions) is sufficient for the current conversation. I omit most of the remainder of your reply, since it's mostly involved with quibbling over comparisons with various units.

Also, please stop saying one Krak Missile destroys a WG.
It's a 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, possible 5+ cover save. It really takes 2 Krak missiles to destroy 1 WG, and that is vastly more points for a marine player to use. ML aren't even popular. A plasma cannon also will require about 2 shots to kill one unless your opponent doesn't know how to play this game.

One successful wound from a krak missile destroys a WG. That is a fact.

And actually, the chances are much better than you make out. If I am using devastator or tactical doctrine, I have the opportunity to reroll misses with that krak missile. And I'm wounding on 2s.

Experiment 626 wrote:

It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.

And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".

I love how in every case with you it always somehow ends up being that ONLY Marines are powergamers.

So because a person bought Grav-Cents(why would you put Lascannons or Heavy Bolters on them? In this edition, you might as well just throw capguns on them if you want them for MC hunting) and then either fielded an Allied Detachment of some kind OR is running a CAD to begin with(the only two ways for Grav-Cents to get Drop Pods, fyi. Their DT options are LRs or LRCs), they're committing some kind of powergaming sin?


I bet you complain when someone puts Devastators down with Grav-Cannons too.

Experiment 626 wrote:
.


And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git gud

A thousand times this. It's amazing how blinded they are because they have thousands upon thousands of similar minded people backing them. 2+ even 3+ rerollable are bs.

cosmicsoybean wrote:A thousand times this. It's amazing how blinded they are because they have thousands upon thousands of similar minded people backing them. 2+ even 3+ rerollable are bs.

I completely agree.

Rerollable saves need to die. Period.

Lets have a look at them from a None-Marine stand point. I play Dark Eldar, specifically Coven Dark Eldar with Harlequin allies. In a game against Wraithguard my Corpse Theif Claw is a liability, I have to put everything I have into ensuring those Wraithguard don't fire, not even once. That isn't easy, haywire scourges can reliably glance but 4+ jink save means I need to dedicate at least 2 of my 3 Scourge units to that single Wave Serpent to reliably crack it open. Then I need to pour enough splinter rounds into them that they fall down.

I have the options to take the Wraithguard down, but it seems like I have to do so much more work then the Eldar player does. If he gets to fire he will likely kill 2-3 Talosi in a single volly, if i dedicate the a large proportion of my army into taking them down I only succeed in saving my Talosi. How OP they are I don't think I'm allowed an opinion on, there is a sort of 'New codex elitism' that dictates I don't get a say because my army sucks, but i feel they are VERY badly designed. Autokill guns, fast durable transports and not a bad area denial (18'' in all directions) seems to suck a lot of the nuance and skill out of how Eldar used to play.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:Maybe you should define similar enough to count.

Right off hand, I really don't know the answer to that. Again, let's consider what a wraithguard is:

So right away, you are dismissing what everyone else is doing by comparing units in a similar role without being able to provide some metric of your own we all can follow?
This is bad form.

Traditio wrote:

It's a T6 infantry with otherwise space marines stats and saves (except S 5 instead of 4) with what is, for all intents and purposes, an extremely short range auto kill gun.

There's nothing else that's really like it in the game.

There are few units that are relatively short ranged, needs a delivery system, but delete pretty much every unit they come in contact with.
You name one later on actually.

Traditio wrote:

You'd be hard pressed to find an infantry unit that has a Str D flamer, especially one with a defensive stat line like Wraithguard. So if your requirements are strict, we aren't going to be able to compare anything here.

Yes. The wraithguard is kind of a "snowflake" unit in 40k. It's very different from other things in the game.

If I were absolutely forced to compare it to something else, it would be grav centurions, but even there, the comparison just falls short. Grav centurions are 2+ armor save, T 5 and 2 wounds, not to mention that the grav cannon has much longer range.

True, it's about two times as expensive as well so per wound it's about the same. Cents are a little tougher against the majority of weapons however.

Traditio wrote:

Again, the only delivery method in the Eldar codex for wraithguard is a wave serpent. Grav centurions? Not so much.

This is a useless limitation and is a big moving of the goalposts from you.
For one, you can freely use other transports or delivery systems from other dexes with the Eldar Army currently. I may not like it, but its certainly legal

And two, you were just claiming a little while ago that we must only look at a unit in a vacuum. Suddenly we can add some synergy to the Cents, but we have to limit what we can add to the WG?
This is absurd. You look at the way that the unit is currently taken in its entirety. Sometimes this is hard (how do you quantify markerlights for tau per unit?) but for a transport for one unit? Its remarkably simple

Traditio wrote:

If you want that comparison, a grav centurion is 80 ppm. But that also includes a hurricane bolter (which can be upgraded to a missile launcher).

Would you consider wraithguard better or worse than grav centurions?

In a vacuum no nothing? Probably both are equally useless with the wraithguard being better since they can't be charged effectively.
With just transports but no other buffs? Probably WG, since they can move around and possibly delete 2-3 units over the course of the game and are much cheaper. The cents will get 2-3 units but cost much more.
With all synergies on the table? Cents. No question.
Of course only talking about the last one is worth anything. However, Cents are one of, if not the, best unit in the game. Are we going to say every GMC that isn't the WK is not strong just because the WK stands head and shoulders above them all?

Traditio wrote:

Technically this is true, but you never see Centurion Devs looked at in a vacuum. Without transports or a teleporter, they are pretty bad. With a Teleporter, they become one of the most OP units in the game, and can be ramped up from there pretty easily.
Are you going to suggest that Centurion Devs are a bad unit?

No. I'd simply assert that Centurion devastators aren't OP. Centurion devastators + some force multiplier or delivery system is OP.

And what possible purpose would such a claim make other than being technically correct?
It doesn't reflect the game state or average game featuring Cents at all. It's useless. You discuss cents in the way they are commonly taken, not in some made up scenario or vacuum test, especially if we are discussing if a unit is OP

Traditio wrote:

By your metric, markerlights and psykers are mostly garbage, since we can only look at them and not how they interact with other units. Is that an argument you want to make?

Markerlights and psykers, for the most part, are force multipliers by design. As such, their utility can be considered only relatively to other things.

Are transports and delivery systems not force multipliers by design?

Traditio wrote:

Centurions and wraithguard? Not so much.

Ah, but we are including transports and delivery systems. Possibly formation bonuses which are force multipliers.
If you said "A WG can't defend against a Meganobz squad because I'll send another boyz squad in" that would not be a good counter. The boyz squad is not a force multiplier and can not be assumed to be following the Nobz around taking overwatch shots for them. If the boyz plus Nobz are cheaper than the WG and the boyz can be assumed to survive, maybe you have an argument but its iffy.

A transport or WWP, however, will be doing just such a job and no other. No one looks at Sternguard and says "Oh, you really can't talk about the drop pod when discussing them".

The argument here is a bit strange, and I hope you see that now.

Traditio wrote:

At any rate, I think that the first point (i.e., the comparison to grav centurions) is sufficient for the current conversation. I omit most of the remainder of your reply, since it's mostly involved with quibbling over comparisons with various units.

Actually, it included a bit more than that.
But I think you're willing to concede that comparisons are fine between units that aren't exactly the same, and we should include all force multipliers that can be assumed for the unit to have (characters in the squad, markerlights, transports).

Traditio wrote:

Also, please stop saying one Krak Missile destroys a WG.
It's a 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, possible 5+ cover save. It really takes 2 Krak missiles to destroy 1 WG, and that is vastly more points for a marine player to use. ML aren't even popular. A plasma cannon also will require about 2 shots to kill one unless your opponent doesn't know how to play this game.

One successful wound from a krak missile destroys a WG. That is a fact.

5 failed FnP rolls from a bolter kill a Riptide. That is a fact.
Do you see how silly that is? No one would think 3 rapid fire bolters would ever kill a Tide reasonably. Just like nobody would think 4 Krak missiles will kill 4 WG.

Traditio wrote:

And actually, the chances are much better than you make out. If I am using devastator or tactical doctrine, I have the opportunity to reroll misses with that krak missile. And I'm wounding on 2s.

It's still less than 1ML = 1WG dead, which is all I said. So no, its exactly what I claimed and significantly worse than what you claimed.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.

And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".

I love how in every case with you it always somehow ends up being that ONLY Marines are powergamers.

So because a person bought Grav-Cents(why would you put Lascannons or Heavy Bolters on them? In this edition, you might as well just throw capguns on them if you want them for MC hunting) and then either fielded an Allied Detachment of some kind OR is running a CAD to begin with(the only two ways for Grav-Cents to get Drop Pods, fyi. Their DT options are LRs or LRCs), they're committing some kind of powergaming sin?


I bet you complain when someone puts Devastators down with Grav-Cannons too.

Gravcents on their own, without any attached IC's are amazing and still among the game's best units.
Gravcents that then get backed up by incredible synergies from the likes of Tiggy/Severin Loth or a couple Libbies, are top level cheese.
Gravcents that can now re-roll all their saves, or else shoot through solid objects without even needing LoS, are just as game breaking and obnoxious as Scatbikes/Spider spam/Wraithknights/Tzeentch 2++ saves/Superfriends Deathstar/etc...

If you're playing against an opponent who loves to bash that square peg into a circle and play Tournamenthammer, then fine, go crazy with power gaming and stupid combos.

If you're playing against an opponent who doesn't want to play that kind of game, (especially if they've repeatedly asked their opponent to not bring that level of sheer OP obnoxiousness), and you still insist on bringing said power gaming unit/combo, then you're a donkeycave.


In my experience over the years, it's been the Loyalist players who tend to cry foul the loudest when asked to tone stuff down, while most of the Xenos players I've known have been far more agreeable to scale back the power of their lists.

I would just like to point out that not all Marine players try to pull that gak. It's a small minority of Marine players who give the rest of us a bad name

It must be nice to know what it's like to "tone it down". The best I can do basically gets laughed at.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.

And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".

I love how in every case with you it always somehow ends up being that ONLY Marines are powergamers.

So because a person bought Grav-Cents(why would you put Lascannons or Heavy Bolters on them? In this edition, you might as well just throw capguns on them if you want them for MC hunting) and then either fielded an Allied Detachment of some kind OR is running a CAD to begin with(the only two ways for Grav-Cents to get Drop Pods, fyi. Their DT options are LRs or LRCs), they're committing some kind of powergaming sin?


I bet you complain when someone puts Devastators down with Grav-Cannons too.

Gravcents on their own, without any attached IC's are amazing and still among the game's best units.

Sure they are, and they pay for it. You might refuse to believe this but they're pretty hefty units pointswise.

Gravcents that then get backed up by incredible synergies from the likes of Tiggy/Severin Loth or a couple Libbies, are top level cheese.

First off, people shouldn't be using Severin Loth. His rules are WAY out of date at this point, with the Codex that they pulled from having gone through two incarnations. They definitely shouldn't be including him in Librarius Conclaves or Gladius Strike Forces or anything like that.

Second off, Librarians aren't invincible and they don't always get the powers they want/need.

Gravcents that can now re-roll all their saves, or else shoot through solid objects without even needing LoS,

So Grav Cents coupled with a Conclave that got super lucky on its Psyker abilities(having to fish through Geokinesis and Librarius for Phase Form and Veil of Time respectively) became more powerful?

They, however, didn't magically become invincible.

are just as game breaking and obnoxious as Scatbikes/Spider spam/Wraithknights/Tzeentch 2++ saves/Superfriends Deathstar/etc...

Gravcents getting hit by AP1 or AP2 and/or Ignores Cover weapons don't get to reroll their saves unless there's something granting them an Invulnerable Save because then their saves are gone.

It's one thing to talk about 2++ rerollables for Tzeentch as there isn't really anything removing Invulnerable Saves from the game or neutering GMC immunity to Sniper/Poison in the case of Wraithknights or Scatterbikes being stupidly underpriced or Warp Spiders' Flickerjump.

It's another thing entirely to pretend as though AP1 or AP2 weapons don't exist.

If you're playing against an opponent who loves to bash that square peg into a circle and play Tournamenthammer, then fine, go crazy with power gaming and stupid combos.

If you're playing against an opponent who doesn't want to play that kind of game, (especially if they've repeatedly asked their opponent to not bring that level of sheer OP obnoxiousness), and you still insist on bringing said power gaming unit/combo, then you're a donkeycave.

And if you're the person asking others to stop doing that and continue to play against the donkeycave, what precisely does that make you?

Come a certain point, it just kinda smacks of sadism.

In my experience over the years, it's been the Loyalist players who tend to cry foul the loudest when asked to tone stuff down, while most of the Xenos players I've known have been far more agreeable to scale back the power of their lists.

And in my experience, it's been the xenos players.

Crazy how anecdotal evidence works, right?

Martel732 wrote:
It must be nice to know what it's like to "tone it down". The best I can do basically gets laughed at.

Are you kidding me? You continue to ignore when everyone points out how blood Angels are the best type of marine codex out there. I mean look at vanilla, dark Angels, wolves and grey Knights! The song "everything you can do I can do better" comes to mind. Blood Angels take what every other loyalist does and x2 it! It's crazy and honestly needs to be nerfed to the ground

Akiasura wrote:So right away, you are dismissing what everyone else is doing by comparing units in a similar role without being able to provide some metric of your own we all can follow?
This is bad form.

They were the ones making the argument. "Hey, look at all of these similar units." The counterargument to this is "They're not really that similar."

I still say that the big method of evaluation is the one that I initially proposed (which peregrine subsequently attacked).

True, it's about two times as expensive as well so per wound it's about the same. Cents are a little tougher against the majority of weapons however.

If that's the case, then wraithguard aren't actually OP or undercosted. Unless centurions are undercosted.

This is a useless limitation and is a big moving of the goalposts from you.
For one, you can freely use other transports or delivery systems from other dexes with the Eldar Army currently. I may not like it, but its certainly legal

Again, then it's not wraithguard that's the problem. It's allies.

And two, you were just claiming a little while ago that we must only look at a unit in a vacuum. Suddenly we can add some synergy to the Cents, but we have to limit what we can add to the WG?

Not at all. If you look at the wraithguard entry in the Eldar codex, it says,in black and white, that it can take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport.

It says, right there in the space marines codex, in the devastator centurion entry, that devastators can take landraiders.

In a vacuum no nothing? Probably both are equally useless with the wraithguard being better since they can't be charged effectively.
With just transports but no other buffs? Probably WG, since they can move around and possibly delete 2-3 units over the course of the game and are much cheaper. The cents will get 2-3 units but cost much more.
With all synergies on the table? Cents. No question.
Of course only talking about the last one is worth anything. However, Cents are one of, if not the, best unit in the game. Are we going to say every GMC that isn't the WK is not strong just because the WK stands head and shoulders above them all?

I didn't make this claim. However, it is pretty illuminating to see that you've basically said that wraithguard are basically appropriately priced when compared to a unit that's actually similar.

But again, I don't deny that wraithguard (and maybe even centurions) should cost more.

That said, I think that we can both agree that an 80 point wraithguard with d-scythe would basically be unplayable. 400 points for wraithguard on foot, roughly 500 with a wave serpent?

Against a MSU army, those wraithguard would never make their points back.

And what possible purpose would such a claim make other than being technically correct?

Because it shows that the problem isn't with that unit. It's with the combination.

Maybe wraithguard are basically balanced...in the context of the eldar codex, and only in the context of the eldar codex. Perhaps they are not balanced when Dark Eldar are their battle brother allies.

But then the problem isn't wraithguard. It's the allied rules.

Are transports and delivery systems not force multipliers by design?

Probably.

Ah, but we are including transports and delivery systems. Possibly formation bonuses which are force multipliers.

I'm including everything in the codex entry.

If you said "A WG can't defend against a Meganobz squad because I'll send another boyz squad in" that would not be a good counter. The boyz squad is not a force multiplier and can not be assumed to be following the Nobz around taking overwatch shots for them. If the boyz plus Nobz are cheaper than the WG and the boyz can be assumed to survive, maybe you have an argument but its iffy.

A transport or WWP, however, will be doing just such a job and no other. No one looks at Sternguard and says "Oh, you really can't talk about the drop pod when discussing them".

So, if you look at the sternguard entry in the marines codex, it gives them the option to take a drop pod. There is no "webway portal" upgrade in the wraithguard entry.

Actually, it included a bit more than that.
But I think you're willing to concede that comparisons are fine between units that aren't exactly the same, and we should include all force multipliers that can be assumed for the unit to have (characters in the squad, markerlights, transports).

Absolutely not. When evaluating a codex entry, it should be evaluated in terms of itself. If wraithguard + webway portal is OP, then maybe there's something wrong with the allies rules.

5 failed FnP rolls from a bolter kill a Riptide.
Do you see how silly that is? No one would think 3 rapid fire bolters would ever kill a Tide reasonably. Just like nobody would think 4 Krak missiles will kill 4 WG.

Let's do the math. Let's assume I am using the tactical doctrine and am firing with 4 krak missile devastators.

4/1 shots X 5/6 chance of hitting X 5/6 chance of wounding = 100/36 or 50/18 or 25/9

That's almost 2 out of 3 krak missiles hitting.

2/3 > 1/2

Let's assume cover: 25/9 X 2/3 50/27

That's slightly worse than 1 in 2.

It's still less than 1ML = 1WG dead, which is all I said. So no, its exactly what I claimed and significantly worse than what you claimed.

Be that as it may, it remains true that krak missiles are an effective way of killing wraithguard.

In 2 or 3 rounds of shooting, that 130 point (170 if flakk missiles are taken) squad reliably is going to kill that 210 point squad.

Edit:

At any rate, I simply refuse to talk about all possible synergies, even within a given codex.

If you have to talk about all of those synergies, you aren't saying "this individual thing is broken." You're just saying: "The whole codex is broken."

And that's not really all that helpful.

Grav cents, with no support units included are actually kinda victims. They get one shot off, and then die in a hail of AP 2 fire. Or get assaulted.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav cents, with no support units included are actually kinda victims. They get one shot off, and then die in a hail of AP 2 fire. Or get assaulted.

Same with wraithguard lol.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)

I don't think you realise that eldar players are the only ones bshing on "spress murrenz". To players of other armies, they rather play against Space Marines that eldar.

Eldar players are simply jealous that Space Marines are so much more interesting than mary sue elves in space who are "glass scapel" generalists who can do everything, but are such special snowflakes that they're the best at everything.

I play Tyranids, and I would not play an eldar player. The 2 local clubs around my area has outright banned eldar. There's a good reason why players and clubs refuse to play eldar, while you don't hear of anyone banning Space Marines.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Grav cents, with no support units included are actually kinda victims. They get one shot off, and then die in a hail of AP 2 fire. Or get assaulted.

Same with wraithguard lol.

I'm not complaining about wraithguard.

kburn wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)

I don't think you realise that eldar players are the only ones bshing on "spress murrenz". To players of other armies, they rather play against Space Marines that eldar.

Eldar players are simply jealous that Space Marines are so much more interesting than mary sue elves in space who are "glass scapel" generalists who can do everything, but are such special snowflakes that they're the best at everything.

I play Tyranids, and I would not play an eldar player. The 2 local clubs around my area has outright banned eldar. There's a good reason why players and clubs refuse to play eldar, while you don't hear of anyone banning Space Marines.

So much wrong here lmao.
First, no, space marines are disliked buy a decent number of people, of all races
How is "Generic marine will win generic fight because plot armour" more interesting than ANY other fluff?
Where the hell are you reading your codexs where they are generalists? There is a unit dedicated to each threat, other use is really inefficient.
I too play nids... so what if you wont play, means that you are fighting powergamers or you're a very poor sport, or gakky.
Those local clubs also have eaither a very high percentage of powergamers, or they are mega-casual crowd (nothing wrong with that)
And if people banned space marines thats literally 75%+ of players suddenly not going. No one who spent money on an army and the time will go "yeah, my army is op, instead of houserules, ban my army so I cant play them!"
10/10 lmao.

The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:So right away, you are dismissing what everyone else is doing by comparing units in a similar role without being able to provide some metric of your own we all can follow?
This is bad form.

They were the ones making the argument. "Hey, look at all of these similar units." The counterargument to this is "They're not really that similar."

I still say that the big method of evaluation is the one that I initially proposed (which peregrine subsequently attacked).

True, it's about two times as expensive as well so per wound it's about the same. Cents are a little tougher against the majority of weapons however.

If that's the case, then wraithguard aren't actually OP or undercosted. Unless centurions are undercosted.

...are one of the strongest units in the game undercosted? Is that what you're asking?
Yes.
Yes of course they are.
Are you trolling? Have you never seen Cents with all the tools on the battlefield? They eliminate 2 units a turn of practically anything but large hordes every turn, and do it quite safely from most units outside of long range firepower. And they are incredibly tough against most counters for a variety of reasons.

Traditio wrote:

This is a useless limitation and is a big moving of the goalposts from you.
For one, you can freely use other transports or delivery systems from other dexes with the Eldar Army currently. I may not like it, but its certainly legal

Again, then it's not wraithguard that's the problem. It's allies.

You can't say it's just allies, that is the problem. Dire Avengers, for example, aren't being complained about when allies are used. It's very few units in the Eldar codex that benefit from Allies, and WG happen to be one of them.
You have to include it in the discussion, as its how they are taken. Otherwise you are using limiting qualifiers to make a point and no other purpose.

Traditio wrote:

And two, you were just claiming a little while ago that we must only look at a unit in a vacuum. Suddenly we can add some synergy to the Cents, but we have to limit what we can add to the WG?

Not at all. If you look at the wraithguard entry in the Eldar codex, it says,in black and white, that it can take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport.

It says, right there in the space marines codex, in the devastator centurion entry, that devastators can take landraiders.

And no one takes Cents with the land raider.
You take a teleporting libby or SC with them, or you don't really take them at all. No one uses a land raider.
I have to ask, have you not seen Cents in the game? You seem to honestly have no idea at all how they operate, which is why you keep making these counter arguments that are just...not at all what was implied when everyone else seems to understand it.

Traditio wrote:

In a vacuum no nothing? Probably both are equally useless with the wraithguard being better since they can't be charged effectively.
With just transports but no other buffs? Probably WG, since they can move around and possibly delete 2-3 units over the course of the game and are much cheaper. The cents will get 2-3 units but cost much more.
With all synergies on the table? Cents. No question.
Of course only talking about the last one is worth anything. However, Cents are one of, if not the, best unit in the game. Are we going to say every GMC that isn't the WK is not strong just because the WK stands head and shoulders above them all?

I didn't make this claim. However, it is pretty illuminating to see that you've basically said that wraithguard are basically appropriately priced when compared to a unit that's actually similar.

But again, I don't deny that wraithguard (and maybe even centurions) should cost more.

That said, I think that we can both agree that an 80 point wraithguard with d-scythe would basically be unplayable. 400 points for wraithguard on foot, roughly 500 with a wave serpent?

Against a MSU army, those wraithguard would never make their points back.

Cents are not costed correctly, so saying WG are about the same means that the WG are OP. Again, do you have any idea what Cents are? Or how to determine if a unit is OP?
If a GMC came out that was costed like the WK, was different but comparable, would anyone be claiming it was fairly priced?
Of course not.

Just because a unit isn't 50% undercosted, since you doubled the price of them practically, (even the WK only needs a 100-150 point increase, the riptide less) doesn't mean its not OP. By your definition, there is no OP unit in the entire game. That's not an argument I would care to make.

Traditio wrote:

And what possible purpose would such a claim make other than being technically correct?

Because it shows that the problem isn't with that unit. It's with the combination.

Maybe wraithguard are basically balanced...in the context of the eldar codex, and only in the context of the eldar codex. Perhaps they are not balanced when Dark Eldar are their battle brother allies.

But then the problem isn't wraithguard. It's the allied rules.

No, that's not at all true.
Originally you said no WS. Just with a WS they become very strong and would be taken in any other average level dex. And spammed.
With all of the options on the table, WG are amazing. Only the eldar codex ignores them because the eldar codex has some of the strongest units in the game.

You can't just look at the combination and say "everything in this is fine, but combined its broken" and not say the unit is broken. If the unit is taken constantly in the combination, then the unit is essentially the combination barring an edition change.

Traditio wrote:

Are transports and delivery systems not force multipliers by design?

Probably.

So...we can include them then?
Are allies not fore multipliers?

Traditio wrote:

Ah, but we are including transports and delivery systems. Possibly formation bonuses which are force multipliers.

I'm including everything in the codex entry.

Why are you limiting yourself to just that? That makes cents look much weaker than they are, you aren't getting an idea of what the game looks like at all using your methods.

Traditio wrote:

If you said "A WG can't defend against a Meganobz squad because I'll send another boyz squad in" that would not be a good counter. The boyz squad is not a force multiplier and can not be assumed to be following the Nobz around taking overwatch shots for them. If the boyz plus Nobz are cheaper than the WG and the boyz can be assumed to survive, maybe you have an argument but its iffy.

A transport or WWP, however, will be doing just such a job and no other. No one looks at Sternguard and says "Oh, you really can't talk about the drop pod when discussing them".

So, if you look at the sternguard entry in the marines codex, it gives them the option to take a drop pod. There is no "webway portal" upgrade in the wraithguard entry.

First off, originally you didn't want any transport included at all. Someone brought up a WS and you didn't want it included.
Second, why are you setting all of these useless limits? Who cares about the codex entry? Should I assume Tiggy will never go with a squad because there is no squad listed in his codex entry?
It's absurd.

Traditio wrote:

Actually, it included a bit more than that.
But I think you're willing to concede that comparisons are fine between units that aren't exactly the same, and we should include all force multipliers that can be assumed for the unit to have (characters in the squad, markerlights, transports).

Absolutely not. When evaluating a codex entry, it should be evaluated in terms of itself. If wraithguard + webway portal is OP, then maybe there's something wrong with the allies rules.

Who says so? Why would you do that?
Frankly, you're just saying that to say it. You've given no indication why we shouldn't look at all the options the game allows you to take and instead have set up artificial limits on what we can discuss.
I believe it's because your point wouldn't exist if we looked at all the options the WG have.

[/b] You must defend why we can only look at the codex entry and not what the game allows you to do before claiming it like it's some sort of universal truth. [b]

Traditio wrote:

5 failed FnP rolls from a bolter kill a Riptide.
Do you see how silly that is? No one would think 3 rapid fire bolters would ever kill a Tide reasonably. Just like nobody would think 4 Krak missiles will kill 4 WG.

Let's do the math. Let's assume I am using the tactical doctrine and am firing with 4 krak missile devastators.

4/1 shots X 5/6 chance of hitting X 5/6 chance of wounding = 100/36 or 50/18 or 25/9

That's almost 2 out of 3 krak missiles hitting.

2/3 > 1/2

Let's assume cover: 25/9 X 2/3 50/27

That's slightly worse than 1 in 2.

Which is still less than 1 for 1, which was your original claim. It's actually closer to my original claim.
I appreciate you proving my point for me.

Traditio wrote:

It's still less than 1ML = 1WG dead, which is all I said. So no, its exactly what I claimed and significantly worse than what you claimed.

Be that as it may, it remains true that krak missiles are an effective way of killing wraithguard.

In 2 or 3 rounds of shooting, that 130 point (170 if flakk missiles are taken) squad reliably is going to kill that 210 point squad.

Assuming that unit lives against an eldar army, sure. And assuming it can destroy the transport (it can't before the WG are delivered, only grav bikers or cents will do that reliably in a marine force for a realistic point cost).
It's also 2-3 rounds of shooting. For a unit that will be in a transport half of the game, you are saying it'll take roughly 4-6 rounds to destroy the WG.
That's...the game length really. They'll have earned their points back on turn 2 or 4.

Traditio wrote:

Edit:

At any rate, I simply refuse to talk about all possible synergies, even within a given codex.

If you have to talk about all of those synergies, you aren't saying "this individual thing is broken." You're just saying: "The whole codex is broken."

And that's not really all that helpful.

If you refuse to discuss it, then no offense, you are going to continue coming in here complaining about how cheap things are and losing terribly.

You're already very limited in what you know about this game, it might help you to look at more than what you are currently willing to discuss and take advice from more experienced players. No offense man, but you're brand new and from all the posts I've seen of yours, struggling with lists. Take a sit back and figure out why you need to set these limits to make yourself correct, rather than look at the game as a whole and see what works.

Martel732 wrote:
The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.

Though its closely followed by grav which only falls short because Ork Boyz exist.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.

Though its closely followed by grav which only falls short because Ork Boyz exist.

and scatterlasers are not plentiful on other units other than the bikes, whos job is to mow down infantry anyways.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

So much wrong here lmao.
First, no, space marines are disliked buy a decent number of people, of all races
How is "Generic marine will win generic fight because plot armour" more interesting than ANY other fluff?
Where the hell are you reading your codexs where they are generalists? There is a unit dedicated to each threat, other use is really inefficient.
I too play nids... so what if you wont play, means that you are fighting powergamers or you're a very poor sport, or gakky.
Those local clubs also have eaither a very high percentage of powergamers, or they are mega-casual crowd (nothing wrong with that)
And if people banned space marines thats literally 75%+ of players suddenly not going. No one who spent money on an army and the time will go "yeah, my army is op, instead of houserules, ban my army so I cant play them!"
10/10 lmao.

Not sure if people in denial are this thick.
No one cares if you don't like marine fluff, but there's good reason why BL produces so much marine books. If you want stories about mary sue or elves, go watch sword art online or something.
It doesn't mean that if the codex says they're specialists, that they really are. There are several replies above and below you which calls them generalists, you need to get your eyes checked. Best at shooting,best at movement, best at survivalbility, best at assault. For other armies, its pick 1-2, and some like tyranids, its pick none. Almost every eldar unit can pick 3-4 from that list.
I'm not the only one who wouldn't play against eldar. Many others don't.

Either way, doesn't matter what you say. If you're right, then enjoy the abundance of games you're getting. If you're wrong, only you know.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.

Though its closely followed by grav which only falls short because Ork Boyz exist.

and scatterlasers are not plentiful on other units other than the bikes, whos job is to mow down infantry anyways.

Except Scatter Lasers mow down more than just infantry. They also shred light vehicles and monstrous creatures thanks to the volume of shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kburn wrote:

No one cares if you don't like marine fluff, but there's good reason why BL produces so much marine books. If you want stories about mary sue or elves, go watch sword art online or something.

Marines are the biggest mary sues in the whole setting, though that is largely thanks to Mat Ward. Marines being mary sues is precisely the reason that so many books get written about them, they're a power fantasy with homoerotic undertones where you just insert a character who is the best at X, Y and Z and then just have him beat up a load of whatever bad guy he happens to be facing then he goes home and slaps a load of burly men on the back whilst saying "Brother!"

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.

Though its closely followed by grav which only falls short because Ork Boyz exist.

Marines can field far fewer grav weapons than Eldar can scatterlasers. Also, regular grav guns are very much inferior to scatterlasers.

kburn wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

So much wrong here lmao.
First, no, space marines are disliked buy a decent number of people, of all races
How is "Generic marine will win generic fight because plot armour" more interesting than ANY other fluff?
Where the hell are you reading your codexs where they are generalists? There is a unit dedicated to each threat, other use is really inefficient.
I too play nids... so what if you wont play, means that you are fighting powergamers or you're a very poor sport, or gakky.
Those local clubs also have eaither a very high percentage of powergamers, or they are mega-casual crowd (nothing wrong with that)
And if people banned space marines thats literally 75%+ of players suddenly not going. No one who spent money on an army and the time will go "yeah, my army is op, instead of houserules, ban my army so I cant play them!"
10/10 lmao.

Not sure if people in denial are this thick.
No one cares if you don't like marine fluff, but there's good reason why BL produces so much marine books. If you want stories about mary sue or elves, go watch sword art online or something.
It doesn't mean that if the codex says they're specialists, that they really are. There are several replies above and below you which calls them generalists, you need to get your eyes checked. Best at shooting,best at movement, best at survivalbility, best at assault. For other armies, its pick 1-2, and some like tyranids, its pick none. Almost every eldar unit can pick 3-4 from that list.
I'm not the only one who wouldn't play against eldar. Many others don't.

Either way, doesn't matter what you say. If you're right, then enjoy the abundance of games you're getting. If you're wrong, only you know.

Okay have fun getting into melee with some fire dragons, or dark reapers, or swooping hawks, or warp spiders... Oh, wait, there gak in melee combat! Spiders excel at infantry killing, fire dragons anti tank, scorpions are melee and such, they are not good at anything else really, thats like me calling a lascannon squad generalists... no, they are dedicated to a role, and do not do the other roles that well.