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 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Okay have fun getting into melee with some fire dragons, or dark reapers, or swooping hawks, or warp spiders... Oh, wait, there gak in melee combat! Spiders excel at infantry killing, fire dragons anti tank, scorpions are melee and such, they are not good at anything else really, thats like me calling a lascannon squad generalists... no, they are dedicated to a role, and do not do the other roles that well.

I said 3 of 4. All of those units are very survivable, have great movement and are either great at melee or shooting, whereas all other armies are pick 1/2 out of 4.

Spiders also tear vehicles and MCs apart, just like scatterbikes. They are generalists.

The WK is a generalist.

Scatterbikes are generalists.

Do the Eldar have other units? It's been so long...

Akiasura wrote:...are one of the strongest units in the game undercosted? Is that what you're asking?
Yes.
Yes of course they are.
Are you trolling?

No. Note, I wasn't denying that centurions are undercosted. I was simply offering the logical possibilities. Necessarily, based on your concessions, either grav centurions are undercosted, or else, wraithguard are fairly costed. [The assumption is that it is fair that a wraithguard should cost half of what a grav centurion costs.]

Have you never seen Cents with all the tools on the battlefield? They eliminate 2 units a turn of practically anything but large hordes every turn, and do it quite safely from most units outside of long range firepower. And they are incredibly tough against most counters for a variety of reasons.

Well, they do it from 24 inch range or less. That's the range of a grav cannon.

At any rate, simply noting that a unit is good, or even OP, in a combination isn't helpful in terms of identifying the appropriate fix. Should centurions have their costs increased? Should they not be able to ride in vehicles other than land raiders? Should they not be able to benefit from certain kinds of psychic abilities?

Let me just think out loud here.

A devastator marine is 14 ppm. Let's assume an additional 20 ppm for the twin-linked heavybolter and hurricane bolter, as well as the ability to fire two weapons in the same turn (as well as additional T and S): 34 ppm. How much is the suit of armor worth? Lets just call it an additional 6 points to make it an even 40 ppm. Double that for 2 wounds for 80 ppm. Full price for grav cannon and amp would make that 115 ppm.

Wraithguard should cost 50 ppm without d-scythes, 60 points with d-scythes?

You can't say it's just allies, that is the problem. Dire Avengers, for example, aren't being complained about when allies are used. It's very few units in the Eldar codex that benefit from Allies, and WG happen to be one of them.

So your argument against allies being a problem is that it's not a problem when it's not used to pair up web-way portal and wraithguard (and other like things).

But you consider it entirely legitimate to assert that wraithguard are the problem, even though they are not a problem when not paired up with x, y and z?

And no one takes Cents with the land raider.
You take a teleporting libby or SC with them, or you don't really take them at all. No one uses a land raider.

Well maybe the problem isn't Cents. Maybe psychic powers (or at least certain psychic powers) are OP.

I have to ask, have you not seen Cents in the game?

I have not personally seen cents used in this fashion, though I am aware that the are often coupled with teleporting librarians.

Instead of saying "NERF CENTS," maybe the solution is "NERF PSYKERS."

Cents are not costed correctly, so saying WG are about the same means that the WG are OP. Again, do you have any idea what Cents are? Or how to determine if a unit is OP?
If a GMC came out that was costed like the WK, was different but comparable, would anyone be claiming it was fairly priced?
Of course not.

Just because a unit isn't 50% undercosted, since you doubled the price of them practically, (even the WK only needs a 100-150 point increase, the riptide less) doesn't mean its not OP. By your definition, there is no OP unit in the entire game. That's not an argument I would care to make.

Fair enough.

No, that's not at all true.
Originally you said no WS. Just with a WS they become very strong and would be taken in any other average level dex. And spammed.
With all of the options on the table, WG are amazing. Only the eldar codex ignores them because the eldar codex has some of the strongest units in the game.

You can't just look at the combination and say "everything in this is fine, but combined its broken" and not say the unit is broken. If the unit is taken constantly in the combination, then the unit is essentially the combination barring an edition change.

Or perhaps the combination should just be broken up. For example, by altering the allies rules.

So...we can include them then?
Are allies not fore multipliers?

Not in and of itself, not in any significant sense. If I take salamanders captain and 2 additional tactical squads, that's an allied detachment. Is it a force multiplier in the relevant sense? No.

Why are you limiting yourself to just that? That makes cents look much weaker than they are, you aren't getting an idea of what the game looks like at all using your methods.

They would be, if it weren't for psyker shenanigans.

Which is still less than 1 for 1, which was your original claim. It's actually closer to my original claim.
I appreciate you proving my point for me.

That is the point that you made. I believe you said 2 krak missiles. By my maths, it's takes slightly more than 2, if cover.

But yes, you were right about this. Fair point.

Assuming that unit lives against an eldar army, sure.

And that's the problem. The eldar codex has other things that are FAR more OP, and wraithguard deal with what those other OP things can't.

Addendum:

At any rate, I do stand by this point:

I've played against an eldar list that didn't use wraithknights, scatter bikes or dark eldar. It did use wraithguard.

Dark reapers, farseer, warlocks, fire dragons, dire avengers, wraithguard on foot, rangers and the ranger HQ.

The wraithguard were not the units on the board dealing the majority of the damage.

I lost the game by a lot. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the wraithguard that was slaughtering my MSU Crimson Fists.

Eldritch storms and dark reaper blasts? That's a different story.

Wraithguard? Not really.

Traditio wrote:

At any rate, I do stand by this point:

I've played against an eldar list that didn't use wraithknights, scatter bikes or dark eldar. It did use wraithguard.

Dark reapers, farseer, warlocks, fire dragons, dire avengers, wraithguard on foot, rangers and the ranger HQ.

The wraithguard were not the units on the board dealing the majority of the damage.

I lost the game by a lot. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the wraithguard that was slaughtering my MSU Crimson Fists.

Eldritch storms and dark reaper blasts? That's a different story.

Wraithguard? Not really.

Imagine if you brought a game with titans, or with many vehicles, or with many elite troops.

Their gun is literally the ultimate gun. There is nothing that hits harder. Eldar has the ultimate movement. Maybe his other troops were so overpowered, that it shadows out a unit as strong as wraithguard?

Because, to be honest, the only unit in the entire eldar codex that is priced rightly are rangers, and even they would be devestating, top tier units in certain armies (tyranids, orks)

kburn wrote:Imagine if you brought a game with titans, or with many vehicles, or with many elite troops.

As I said:

At that point, you've revoked the right to complain.

You brought cheese?

Well, wraithguard are a particularly good knife for slicing up gouda, cheddar, and all varieties of cheese.

You want to keep the right to complain?

Then don't bring cheese.

Traditio wrote:
wraithguard on foot

And there's the reason why you weren't impressed. Obviously short-ranged squads need some kind of transport/deep strike/etc to get them within range, the fact that a badly-used squad of wraithguard failed to do much doesn't mean that they're weak. It just means that they weren't used effectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
As I said:

At that point, you've revoked the right to complain.

You brought cheese?

Well, wraithguard are a particularly good knife for slicing up gouda, cheddar, and all varieties of cheese.

You want to keep the right to complain?

Then don't bring cheese.

IOW "play the game the way I want you to play it or your balance concerns are not valid".

Peregrine wrote:And there's the reason why you weren't impressed. Obviously short-ranged squads need some kind of transport/deep strike/etc to get them within range, the fact that a badly-used squad of wraithguard failed to do much doesn't mean that they're weak. It just means that they weren't used effectively.

I was legitimately surprised that my opponent didn't use wave serpents. He owns several. He cheesed the tar out of them for the last codex.

IOW "play the game the way I want you to play it or your balance concerns are not valid".

It's an intentional/performative contradiction. "I am running these models or this list or using these tactics which can heavily imbalance a given game. HEY, YOU'RE USING SOMETHING IMBALANCED AND OP TO KILL MY OP THING!"

And such a performative contradiction aside, if wraithguard promote an MSU meta, then I'm all for it. That's the kind of meta in which I'd prefer to play.

Traditio wrote:


As I said:

At that point, you've revoked the right to complain.

You brought cheese?

Well, wraithguard are a particularly good knife for slicing up gouda, cheddar, and all varieties of cheese.

You want to keep the right to complain?

Then don't bring cheese.

What cheese? GK in 3rd-5th were one of the weakest armies, composed of elite troops. They are very average these days. An all-terminator army is also very weak. Also, IG without vehicles? How much weaker you want them to be?

Even then, wraithguard are good even against normal armies like marines. 5 Str blast shots will eailt wipe out any marine squad, with T6 being extremely resilient. You were just unfortunate enough to face the cheesier units.

The fact that eldar can extremely easily destroy what you consider "cheese" says a lot about them. They're at a level beyond mere cheese

kburn wrote:What cheese? GK in 3rd-5th were one of the weakest armies, composed of elite troops. They are very average these days. An all-terminator army is also very weak. Also, IG without vehicles? How much weaker you want them to be?

I seriously doubt that wraithguard unduly prejudice the meta against gray knights.

Also, what vehicles in IG? Are you talking about 50 or so point troop transports like chimeras?

I really can't see why wraithguard have an undue advantage against such...

Oh, you want to spam Leeman Russes?

Enjoy the wraithguard.

Even then, wraithguard are good even against normal armies like marines. 5 Str blast shots will eailt wipe out any marine squad, with T6 being extremely resilient. You were just unfortunate enough to face the cheesier units.

Wraithcannons don't fire blasts. They're just Assault 1.

The fact that eldar can extremely easily destroy what you consider "cheese" says a lot about them. They're at a level beyond mere cheese

Only if you run cheese. If you're not running cheese, wraithguard aren't over the top OP.

Traditio wrote:
It's an intentional/performative contradiction. "I am running these models or this list or using these tactics which can heavily imbalance a given game. HEY, YOU'RE USING SOMETHING IMBALANCED AND OP TO KILL MY OP THING!"

Except it isn't necessarily overpowered. Look at that hypothetical again:

Imagine if you brought a game with titans, or with many vehicles, or with many elite troops.

I'll grant that literal titans are overpowered and kind of unfair in normal games, but the general class of "big centerpiece models that don't technically have 'titan' in their name" is not. And there are plenty of armies with lots of vehicles or elite troops that are not overpowered. This is just another case of you saying "play the game the way I want you to play it or you're wrong".

And such a performative contradiction aside, if wraithguard promote an MSU meta, then I'm all for it. That's the kind of meta in which I'd prefer to play.

I see. So your previous "I shouldn't have to play that way" only applies to you personally, like when you don't want to be forced to use drop pods to compete? It doesn't apply at all to someone who doesn't want to be forced to bring MSU to compete? Good job reinforcing my point there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
Also, what vehicles in IG? Are you talking about 50 or so point troop transports like chimeras?

I really can't see why wraithguard have an undue advantage against such...

Oh, you want to spam Leeman Russes?

Enjoy the wraithguard.

Let me get this straight: you're seriously claiming that LRBT spam is so overpowered that you have no sympathy for people who bring LRBTs and get tabled by wraithguard?

Traditio wrote:


I seriously doubt that wraithguard unduly prejudice the meta against gray knights.

Also, what vehicles in IG? Are you talking about 50 or so point troop transports like chimeras?

I really can't see why wraithguard have an undue advantage against such...

Oh, you want to spam Leeman Russes?

Enjoy the wraithguard.

Wraithcannons don't fire blasts. They're just Assault 1.

Only if you run cheese. If you're not running cheese, wraithguard aren't over the top OP.

Sorry, eldar got banned in my club so long ago, I forgot what kind of shots they pumped out.

So even fun vehicle heavy lists like land raiders get penalised? Also, leman russ being OP? What are you smoking?

It seems that to you, if you take a unit thats not OP=your fault, if you take a unit that you think is OP=you deserve wraithguard? Cannot win with you eh?

So tell me, other than MSU with poor armour saves, which are an absolute rarity, what are wraithguard bad against?

Either way, not sure if you're an eldar player in disguise or something, doesn't matter what we say, but if so, good luck getting games!

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.

Though its closely followed by grav which only falls short because Ork Boyz exist.

and scatterlasers are not plentiful on other units other than the bikes, whos job is to mow down infantry anyways.

Scatterlasers aren't plentiful on other units? what about those war walkers, ohh wait they don't count because they aren't OP Gak.

Scatterlasers are good at everything EXCEPT killing AV12+ and even AV12 they can hurt them.

kburn wrote:So even fun vehicle heavy lists like land raiders get penalised?

Enjoy the wraithguard.

Also, leman russ being OP?

The reason you spammed leeman russes is so that you could invalidate the majority of my army and wipe out my army at range with pie plates.

Enjoy the wraithguard.

So tell me, other than MSU with poor armour saves, which are an absolute rarity, what are wraithguard bad against?

As I said. They die just fine to sternguard hellfire ammunion, plasma cannons, krak missiles, etc.

Either way, not sure if you're an eldar player in disguise or something, doesn't matter what we say, but if so, good luck getting games!

I am not. I run a battle company with pedro kantor and a 1st company task force of 20 sternguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:I'll grant that literal titans are overpowered and kind of unfair in normal games, but the general class of "big centerpiece models that don't technically have 'titan' in their name" is not.

I didn't start playing Warhammer so I could play Battle of the Giant Robots or have Godzilla re-enactments.

If wraithguard shift the meta away from this, then I like wraithguard. I like them a lot.

I see. So your previous "I shouldn't have to play that way" only applies to you personally, like when you don't want to be forced to use drop pods to compete? It doesn't apply at all to someone who doesn't want to be forced to bring MSU to compete? Good job reinforcing my point there.

Then don't bring MSU. Bring swarms/hordes.

But if you bring extremely points heavy single models or points heavy deathstars...

...

Enjoy the wraithguard.

Let me get this straight: you're seriously claiming that LRBT spam is so overpowered that you have no sympathy for people who bring LRBTs and get tabled by wraithguard?

I'm saying that the purpose of the player who brings LRBT spam removes any sympathy I might have for him.

May he enjoy the wraithguard.

Traditio wrote:

Enjoy the wraithguard.

I'd love to, except eldar is banned across the only 2 local clubs.

I highly doubt my area is the only place where eldar players has problems getting games in

kburn wrote:I highly doubt my area is the only place where eldar players has problems getting games in

I play MSU marines.

Traditio wrote:
The reason you spammed leeman russes is so that you could invalidate the majority of my army and wipe out my army at range with pie plates.

No, the reason I spammed LRBTs is because I love the model and don't enjoy painting infantry. But nice job, once again, making assumptions about people and declaring that everyone who doesn't enjoy playing the game the same way that you do is a Bad Person.

I didn't start playing Warhammer so I could play Battle of the Giant Robots or have Godzilla re-enactments.

If wraithguard shift the meta away from this, then I like wraithguard. I like them a lot.

So, just like I said then:

If you have to play something you don't like (drop pods, for example) there is something wrong with the game and it needs to be fixed.

If your opponent has to play something they don't like (MSU instead of their giant robots) then it's just fine, because that's the way you want to play the game.

At least you admit your selfish double standard.

I'm saying that the purpose of the player who brings LRBT spam removes any sympathy I might have for him.

Yeah, what a truly awful person I am, undeserving of any sympathy at all. I will no doubt burn in hell for eternity for my unforgivable sin of painting the models I like and expecting to use them.

So you think Land Raiders should suffer more than they already do? Are you SERIOUS?

Peregrine wrote:No, the reason I spammed LRBTs is because I love the model and don't enjoy painting infantry. But nice job, once again, making assumptions about people and declaring that everyone who doesn't enjoy playing the game the same way that you do is a Bad Person.

If LRBT were 250 ppm without upgrades, but had exactly the same rules they do now, would you continue using them?

Traditio wrote:
If LRBT were 250 ppm without upgrades, but had exactly the same rules they do now, would you continue using them?

No, because I don't enjoy losing games where I have no hope of winning. In that case I'd just stop playing 40k.

And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.

Peregrine wrote:No, because I don't enjoy losing games where I have no hope of winning. In that case I'd just stop playing 40k.

And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.

You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.

kburn wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Enjoy the wraithguard.

I'd love to, except eldar is banned across the only 2 local clubs.

I highly doubt my area is the only place where eldar players has problems getting games in

wtf?! That's sad. Yes, Eldar are probabaly the best overall codex in 40k at this moment, but straight up banning a CORE army?? That's just a sad gamer's excuse.

LinkXx wrote:wtf?! That's sad. Yes, Eldar are probabaly the best overall codex in 40k at this moment, but straight up banning a CORE army?? That's just a sad gamer's excuse.

And I'm sure they allow Tau, too.

Personally, I think the way it should be is:

Nerf Eldar.

Ban Tau.

Traditio wrote:
You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.

Because I don't think you got it the first time I said it:

And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.

Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:No, because I don't enjoy losing games where I have no hope of winning. In that case I'd just stop playing 40k.

And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.

You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.

No he didn't, he said he wouldn't play with them because it wouldn't even be a game or for him to be able to have fun if they were arbitrarily nerfed to the ground via your example just like you wouldn't play with sternguard if they cost 50 ppm and could only use lasguns. LRBT spam is a very fluffy and often common list that is honestly much weaker (notice how they can only move 6" a turn, can't flat out and all your marines come stock with krak grenades on that tasty rear 10 armour?) than an IG combined arms or mech vet list, do you not know of the tank regiments guard have? Of course not, you're only cognisant of things you deem to be relevant and what you're biased towards.

Traditio wrote:
Ban Tau.

I see. So, once again you show no shame in saying "my enjoyment of the game is the only thing that matters". It's pretty amusing how hypocritical you are about this. You are quite happy to talk about how anyone who takes an excessively-powerful list is a bad person because they don't care if their opponent enjoys the game or not, but here you are suggesting that we ban an entire army. For all your attempts to take the moral high ground you really just care about yourself, and everyone is just a pawn for your entertainment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So you think Land Raiders should suffer more than they already do? Are you SERIOUS?

He wants you to enjoy the wraithguard

In all honesty, the best thing for you to do is just turn down games from eldar players. My club did that, and its the best thing they could do. No "why is his list not banned, and mine is" when they walk in with wraithknights and scatlasers. No endless taunts of git gud. No 3 hour ego-stroke fest for the owners of easy-mode armies. No "He plays marines, he's cheesy and should be banned, not me". No bunch of players always winning every single tournament. If they like eldar, they can collect them and put them on the shelf, while playing with a different army.

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.

Because I don't think you got it the first time I said it:

And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.

I didn't say anything about house rules. My question is this:

If GW came out with a new codex and the entry for the LRBT had a "250" in the points cost slot, but everything else in the codex were the same, would you continue to spam LRBT?

Note, this has nothing to do with house rules.

If you say "no," then you don't run those models simply because you like the models. You think that they confer a decisive tactical advantage.

Traditio wrote:
If you say "no," then you don't run those models simply because you like the models. You think that they confer a decisive tactical advantage.

LRBT spam is a mid-tier army, at best. It doesn't have a "decisive tactical advantage". It can win games, but if you want to win as much as possible you certainly aren't going to take it. Massively over-nerfing LRBTs would make it virtually impossible to win unless your opponent takes pity on you and tones down their list to match your poor LRBTs.

So, let me make this nice and clear: I take LRBT (well, IG vehicles in general, to be precise) spam because I like the fluff and models. If GW put out a new codex where they cost 250+ points I would just stop playing the game because my army would have been pointlessly crippled beyond any hope of winning. Please stop telling me how you know more than I do about my own reasons for doing something.

Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.

Because I don't think you got it the first time I said it:

And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.

I didn't say anything about house rules. My question is this:

If GW came out with a new codex and the entry for the LRBT had a "250" in the points cost slot, but everything else in the codex were the same, would you continue to spam LRBT?

Note, this has nothing to do with house rules.

If you say "no," then you don't run those models simply because you like the models. You think that they confer a decisive tactical advantage.

And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.

Like Peregrine, I'd probably just stop playing, because 30 point tactical marines would cripple my army.

That said, I don't claim to play the army I do only because I like the models.

I certainly do like the models. But the ultimate reason I use sternguard, e.g., is because of their special ammunition.

If GW replaced Sternguard rules for Thousand Sons rules, I might just stop running sternguard.