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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.

Yeah, let's do this, it's only fair.

Traditio, would you continue to play your marine army (without expecting your opponents to change their armies and play an entirely different game with you) if every model in it cost 10,000 points per model? If not then you admit that you're just trying to get a decisive tactical advantage and mercilessly crush your opponents. And, by your own explicit condemnation of that approach to gaming, this makes you the exact same kind of Bad Person that you accuse other people of being.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
If GW replaced Sternguard rules for Thousand Sons rules, I might just stop running sternguard.

I see, so you admit that you just play the army you have because you want a decisive tactical advantage (as you put it). You'd better not read all of the nasty things you've had to say about people who do that, you might hurt your own feelings.

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.

Like Peregrine, I'd probably just stop playing, because 30 point tactical marines would cripple my army.

That said, I don't claim to play the army I do only because I like the models.

I certainly do like the models. But the ultimate reason I use sternguard, e.g., is because of their special ammunition.

If GW replaced Sternguard rules for Thousand Sons rules, I might just stop running sternguard.

In the Eldar codex if you increased the cost of Wraithguard they would not be used very much, not because they are over priced but because everything else in that codex is under priced.

SemperMortis wrote:In the Eldar codex if you increased the cost of Wraithguard they would not be used very much, not because they are over priced but because everything else in that codex is under priced.

Do you think a 60 point wraithguard with d-scythe would be fair?

You've seemed to of skimmed past my post, what about Dark Eldar covens? I use Talosi because I love the idea of something tanky in my fragile army. And yes, a Talosi is by far the most durable thing in my army,

A Wraith cannon wound will kill a Talos more than 50% of the time, that's a fact. I get no save unless my advance happens to bring me into cover, but since the Wraith Guard are in Wave Serpents more often than not he chooses the direction of fire so only area cover matters. Why is it that your unit gets to scare the gak outta my unit for less then half the price of the Corpsetheif Claw because it has the damage potential to wipe the entire formation in a single volly?

Of course if you hate Big Death Stars that much I could swap back to Venom Spam, but the people I played against seemed to think that wasn't very fun. Would you enjoy to play against Venom Spam more then the Talosi?


Also we *need* to make 'Enjoy the Wraithguard' a meme captioned upon a smug guys face.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You've seemed to of skimmed past my post

I am TERRIBLY sorry! I saw your posting. I intended to answer it. Somehow, I just never did!

If you repost it, I'd be more than willing to answer it.

what about Dark Eldar covens? I use Talosi because I love the idea of something tanky in my fragile army. And yes, a Talosi is by far the most durable thing in my army,

I just don't know enough about the details of the Dark Eldar army to say one way or the other.

I will,however, say this.

The last dark eldar player against whom I played spammed splinter rifles (poisoned, rapidfire) and blasters (S8, AP 2) in open topped transports.

Splinter rifles wound wraithguard on 4s. Boltguns wound wraithguard on 6s.

Wraithguard should be the least of your worries as a dark eldar player.

Don't get me wrong. Yes, that unit of wraithguard is going to annihilate whatever of your units that they target. That said, you play a horde army. Whatever you use to kill the wraithguard that just killed your stuff, it'll probably be a fair trade.

A Wraith cannon wound will kill a Talos more than 50% of the time, that's a fact. I get no save unless my advance happens to bring me into cover, but since the Wraith Guard are in Wave Serpents more often than not he chooses the direction of fire so only area cover matters. Why is it that your unit gets to scare the gak outta my unit for less then half the price of the Corpse theif Claw because it has the damage potential to wipe the entire formation in a single volly?

1. I don't play Eldar. Wraithguard are not "my unit." I play Crimson Fist space marines.

2. A talos only costs 120 points without upgrades. The wraithguard cost 160 (a 5 man squad with d-scythes cost 210). If the wraithguard kills your talos and you subsequently splinter/blaster those wraithguard off the table, you've actually won out in terms of points costs.

Of course if you hate Big Death Stars that much I could swap back to Venom Spam, but the people I played against seemed to think that wasn't very fun. Would you enjoy to play against Venom Spam more then the Talosi?

The last game I played was against Raider and Venom spam, packed to the brim with warriors with splinter rifles and blasters.

I ended up losing the game, but it was a ton of fun.

I lost a bunch of marines, but vehicles were getting wrecked left and right.

Not to mention that the game ended with my chaplain chasing down a venom and wrecking it with a krak grenade. "IN THE NAME OF THE EMPRAH, TASTE MINE KRAK, YE UNCLEAN XENOS!"

Also we *need* to make 'Enjoy the Wraithguard' a meme captioned upon a smug guys face.

I know, right?

Traditio wrote:
I am TERRIBLY sorry! I saw your posting. I intended to answer it. Somehow, I just never did!

You can answer mine, while you're at it. Here's a link to it: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/687700.page#8596798

And then you can also apologize for telling me how I only take LRBTs to gain a "decisive tactical advantage" and must be lying about taking them because I like the fluff and models.

Peregrine wrote:And then you can also apologize for telling me how I only take LRBTs to gain a "decisive tactical advantage" and must be lying about taking them because I like the fluff and models.

That was probably uncalled for on my part.

I saw your painting blog. Your models look fantastic.

You probably do just like the fluff and aesthetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A consideration:

I also think there would be fewer complaints if wraithguard couldn't hurt vehicles. This also makes sense, given their fluff. D-scythes are basically soul vacuum cleaners.

Huh. Well, you did apologize, and I accept your apology. I would strongly suggest taking this as a lesson about speculating about someone's motivations for taking a particular unit.

Or for taking a particular army.

I didn't slog all the way through 5th with my Tau to have somebody call for the entire army to be banned when I don't even own the models that they are most likely complaining about.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:...are one of the strongest units in the game undercosted? Is that what you're asking?
Yes.
Yes of course they are.
Are you trolling?

No. Note, I wasn't denying that centurions are undercosted. I was simply offering the logical possibilities. Necessarily, based on your concessions, either grav centurions are undercosted, or else, wraithguard are fairly costed. [The assumption is that it is fair that a wraithguard should cost half of what a grav centurion costs.]

Or, both are undercosted since you can argue they are roughly equivalent in purpose with each one having advantages over the other.
The cents have access to a better force multiplier, so they are better.

Traditio wrote:

Have you never seen Cents with all the tools on the battlefield? They eliminate 2 units a turn of practically anything but large hordes every turn, and do it quite safely from most units outside of long range firepower. And they are incredibly tough against most counters for a variety of reasons.

Well, they do it from 24 inch range or less. That's the range of a grav cannon.

At any rate, simply noting that a unit is good, or even OP, in a combination isn't helpful in terms of identifying the appropriate fix. Should centurions have their costs increased? Should they not be able to ride in vehicles other than land raiders? Should they not be able to benefit from certain kinds of psychic abilities?

They can stand outside of the range of long-range weapons because of the teleport. They simply pick a side of the battlefield with LoS blocking terrain and delete two units a turn.
Heck, they can teleport to the back and just delete your long range weapons. Unless you want to drop all the way in the back of the field, most marine armies can't counter them without grav bikes or their own unit of cents.

You are discussing house rules here, which is not relevant to the discussion at all. The question asked if a certain unit is OP, not if certain house rules should be implemented.
Cents are OP due to the force multipliers they have in the current game state. WG are OP due to force multipliers they have in the current game state. Outside of house rules, the only difference is the degree to which they are broken, but both are way too strong.

Traditio wrote:

Let me just think out loud here.

A devastator marine is 14 ppm. Let's assume an additional 20 ppm for the twin-linked heavybolter and hurricane bolter, as well as the ability to fire two weapons in the same turn (as well as additional T and S): 34 ppm. How much is the suit of armor worth? Lets just call it an additional 6 points to make it an even 40 ppm. Double that for 2 wounds for 80 ppm. Full price for grav cannon and amp would make that 115 ppm.

Wraithguard should cost 50 ppm without d-scythes, 60 points with d-scythes?

No, you can't just double the wounds and double the point cost. Doubling wounds is not the same as an additional model (you get about half the fire power, and ID weapons don't effect you nearly as much).
The problem with each unit is the weapon they carry. You can ramp up the points to high levels to make them balanced, true, but really its the weapons and access to good movement that make them OP. No unit should do that much damage outside of melee.

Traditio wrote:

You can't say it's just allies, that is the problem. Dire Avengers, for example, aren't being complained about when allies are used. It's very few units in the Eldar codex that benefit from Allies, and WG happen to be one of them.

So your argument against allies being a problem is that it's not a problem when it's not used to pair up web-way portal and wraithguard (and other like things).

But you consider it entirely legitimate to assert that wraithguard are the problem, even though they are not a problem when not paired up with x, y and z?

Yes of course.
You can't make a blanket statement that allies are the problem, because not all allies are the problem, as I asserted.
You can make the statement that WG or Cents are OP, because they only exist on the TT in this combination. If they don't, they are no longer a problem and not worth discussing. Removing allies would make WG a little worse, but still quite strong. It wouldn't do anything to Cents. Clearly allies are not the issue...Tau, Eldar, and Necrons rarely even use allies in the current game and are considered some of the strongest armies around.
Look at top tier lists. You'll find they don't spam allies unless it's a weaker army, Daemons, or Marines for certain SCs. Allies are unfluffy but from a gameplay standpoint are not the greatest offenders for balance. Formations now are.

Traditio wrote:

And no one takes Cents with the land raider.
You take a teleporting libby or SC with them, or you don't really take them at all. No one uses a land raider.

Well maybe the problem isn't Cents. Maybe psychic powers (or at least certain psychic powers) are OP.

Okay, so now instead of it being 1-2 units, it's psychic powers and allies.
While psychic powers are indeed very strong, they require a unit to be strong in gameplay. You don't see people teleporting sternguard around the battlefield, and they could if they wanted to. No, instead they only use it on cents, and the power was largely unused until cents arrived.

I don't know why you are so set on labeling everything but the unit involved in the combination as OP.

Traditio wrote:

I have to ask, have you not seen Cents in the game?

I have not personally seen cents used in this fashion, though I am aware that the are often coupled with teleporting librarians.

Instead of saying "NERF CENTS," maybe the solution is "NERF PSYKERS."

Nerfing psykers would have more dramatic effects (like on CSM who need them badly). Nerfing cents just makes one unit weaker.
The latter seems easier.
Regardless this isn't the original discussion. You could argue both cents and psykers are OP, but you can't say the problem isn't with cents.
If I told you the problem with cents are the grav weapons, does that make cents suddenly okay? No, because they have access to grav, so who cares what the problem is unless you are creating house rules?

Traditio wrote:

Why are you limiting yourself to just that? That makes cents look much weaker than they are, you aren't getting an idea of what the game looks like at all using your methods.

They would be, if it weren't for psyker shenanigans.

Failed to answer the question. Try again.

Traditio wrote:

Assuming that unit lives against an eldar army, sure.

And that's the problem. The eldar codex has other things that are FAR more OP, and wraithguard deal with what those other OP things can't.

Which was never in question. Doesn't mean WG are fair.
Look at it this way. You make some house rules, which seems to be what you want, that nerfs Scatbikes, WK, and Spiders. What happens to the eldar armies then?
Iyanden would enter the field in a big way.

Traditio wrote:

Addendum:

At any rate, I do stand by this point:

I've played against an eldar list that didn't use wraithknights, scatter bikes or dark eldar. It did use wraithguard.

As have I, and the WG have been devastating. And I play eldar, tau, necrons, and marines. And I use the cent star.

Traditio wrote:

Dark reapers, farseer, warlocks, fire dragons, dire avengers, wraithguard on foot, rangers and the ranger HQ.

The wraithguard were not the units on the board dealing the majority of the damage.

Because they were on foot.
Your one game doesn't beat everyone elses' vastly greater experience. You've never even seen cents used, but comment on them freely. Have you seen WG used with all of their tools? I'm guessing no.

Traditio wrote:

I lost the game by a lot. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the wraithguard that was slaughtering my MSU Crimson Fists.

Eldritch storms and dark reaper blasts? That's a different story.

Wraithguard? Not really.

Dark reapers killed you? You didn't take pods or something?
Dark reapers aren't very strong, they are very easy to kill. You're not helping your argument.

Honestly, this reminds me of the mutilator thread.
You had two camps.
One camp played a very competitive game with Centstars, Scatbikes, and Decurions. They thought mutilators were garbage.
The other camp played a very casual game, with cents on foot, dire avenger spam, and LRBT spam. They thought mutilators were fine.
The second group was unable to convince the first since, for whatever reason, they were unable to post a battle report featuring mutilators going up against anything resembling a competitive list. It annoyed them quite a bit.

This is similar. You seem interested in identifying what exactly is OP about everything, which only matters for houserules. This is not the forum for house rules, and you never stated that is your intention. For most players, it won't matter if WG on foot are garbage if they are commonly taken with a WS or De transport. All they know is these fast moving devastating flamethrowers are killing everything they touch.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Or for taking a particular army.

I didn't slog all the way through 5th with my Tau to have somebody call for the entire army to be banned when I don't even own the models that they are most likely complaining about.

I remember those dark days.

And then I sold my Tau right after the Codex dropped to start off Playing Chaos because playing a good army scares and confuses me at this point.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Or for taking a particular army.

I didn't slog all the way through 5th with my Tau to have somebody call for the entire army to be banned when I don't even own the models that they are most likely complaining about.

I remember those dark days.

And then I sold my Tau right after the Codex dropped to start off Playing Chaos because playing a good army scares and confuses me at this point.

Ha, I know what you mean. Probably just nostalgia but I'm sure I had more fun in 5th than now, even with the handicap. Then 6th was fun before the new Tau codex, back when our vehicles still could move and shoot effectively, Broadsides railguns hadn't suffered a sudden loss of power which made them useless etc. Since that 6th codex though it has just become about bringing in bigger battlesuits and the Tau lost all of the mechanised modern army feel they previously had.

What they've done to Tau armor is criminal. Those models are so good-looking.

Martel732 wrote:
What they've done to Tau armor is criminal. Those models are so good-looking.

I would love to see and play against more Hammerheads and Devilfishes.

Well if you have a receptive group then you could propose bringing back some of the 4th ed upgrades.

Vehicle Multi-Tracker: Vehicle may fire its weapons as if it were a Fast Vehicle.

Vehicle Target Lock: The vehicle may split fire with its weapons.

Also change the twin-linked burst cannon on the Hammerhead back into two burst cannons so it's at least a possible choice of secondary weapon system compared to the SMS.

I'm gonna chime in and say that they are generally undercosted and D weapons sure as feth do not belong on non-LoW models. Especially at 32 ppm. The D cannons can be out played, but the D scythe are OP as feth. T6, 3+ armor non-LoW models, 32 ppm, ignores cover flame templates? Yea feth no. The D cannons are OP for the same reasons absent the ignores cover, but just because they arent on par with the most OP model in the dex doesnt mean D cannon wraithguard arent. Especially when paired with a skimmer transport (and we aren't even talking raider/Web way portal shenanigans yet). Honestly the only models I have a problem with in the dex have "wraith" in their unit name excepting scatbikes. We all know the Knight is criminally undercosted, but the wraith guard and scat bikes can be taken as troops and that make them much worse IMO. That and the Apocalypse blast Storm thong at ap2. Even the lowliest model in the dex can rend out a model 7 times its cost and then run back into cover. Saim Hann and especially Iyanden need to be toned the hell down. Even then you have an entire army that rends. IMO the only non-OP units in the dex are aspect Warriors, shining Spears, farseers and the tanks.

feth Phil Kelly 2 times because every time he writes a dex for his precious eldar the game goes to hell. Look to past editions. How many times did eldar break the meta/40k? Keep in mind this same asshat wrote the CSM book that is currently in the running with Orks and BA for worst book in the game.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I'm gonna chime in and say that they are generally undercosted and D weapons sure as feth do not belong on non-LoW models. Especially at 32 ppm. The D cannons can be out played, but the D scythe are OP as feth. T6, 3+ armor non-LoW models, 32 ppm, ignores cover flame templates? Yea feth no. The D cannons are OP for the same reasons absent the ignores cover, but just because they arent on par with the most OP model in the dex doesnt mean D cannon wraithguard arent. Especially when paired with a skimmer transport (and we aren't even talking raider/Web way portal shenanigans yet). Honestly the only models I have a problem with in the dex have "wraith" in their unit name excepting scatbikes. We all know the Knight is criminally undercosted, but the wraith guard and scat bikes can be taken as troops and that make them much worse IMO. That and the Apocalypse blast Storm thong at ap2. Even the lowliest model in the dex can rend out a model 7 times its cost and then run back into cover. Saim Hann and especially Iyanden need to be toned the hell down. Even then you have an entire army that rends. IMO the only non-OP units in the dex are aspect Warriors, shining Spears, farseers and the tanks.

feth Phil Kelly 2 times because every time he writes a dex for his precious eldar the game goes to hell. Look to past editions. How many times did eldar break the meta/40k? Keep in mind this same asshat wrote the CSM book that is currently in the running with Orks and BA for worst book in the game.

Don't forget Firedragons and their AP0 Melta guns. Nothing more insulting then watching your expensive vehicles explode every time those D-bags come to close to you.

.

Yeah...much like Wraithguard...there was zero reason they needed that AP0...that was a straight up brainfart buff for no good reason, and at no additional points of course.

Coupled with access to BS5 (also for no additional points) they have almost *twice* the probability of inflicting an Explodes result on an AV14 tank that they did before.

stopcallingmechief wrote:


The kids table is over there------->, feel free to play there. Just absolute trash ideas. Back to one in three specuals on a bike? You mean back to the era of NEVER seeing a eldar bike on the table. What a joke

Did you play this game before...like...at all? Bikes were frequently used. They were excellent objective nabbers. They just werent spammed the way they are now, but they very much saw table use...

.

2 seconds of searching, 3rd overall/top Eldar 2014 BAO Eldar List - includes two units of Jet bikes.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607894.page

Is third a win? Is that the new math?

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah...much like Wraithguard...there was zero reason they needed that AP0...that was a straight up brainfart buff for no good reason, and at no additional points of course.

Coupled with access to BS5 (also for no additional points) they have almost *twice* the probability of inflicting an Explodes result on an AV14 tank that they did before.

stopcallingmechief wrote:


The kids table is over there------->, feel free to play there. Just absolute trash ideas. Back to one in three specuals on a bike? You mean back to the era of NEVER seeing a eldar bike on the table. What a joke

Did you play this game before...like...at all? Bikes were frequently used. They were excellent objective nabbers. They just werent spammed the way they are now, but they very much saw table use...

Go find me some major tourney winning eldar lists from 6th. U didnt need bikes when waveserpents and dire avengers with obj secured ruled.

Top 16 in Adepticon 2013.

Top 16 in Adepticon 2014.

Will keep looking later.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Is third a win? Is that the new math?

You said they'd never be played. We showed that high-placing lists in 6th used Eldar Jetbikes. You can't even admit that you're wrong, can you?

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Is third a win? Is that the new math?

Well, they did better than any other Eldar list so your claim that Jetbikes aren't needed when Wave Serpents existed is still false.

Do i need to define what win means?

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Is third a win? Is that the new math?

Ok, if we're going to weasle out of this by being pedantic about this and only consider events with Eldar as 1st overall (where the difference between 1st and 12th can be a single die roll) and disrgarding top rankings and top in faction, then then I'm just not going to put in that kind of work to search which events had only Eldar as #1.

We can look at the 2014 LVO however, of the 4 Eldar armies finishing in the top 8, 3 included Jetbikes in their list.

Either way, moving goalposts aside, Jetbikes were extremely common before they got their heavy weapons buff, and its removal would not make them unseen on tables.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Do i need to define what win means?

No, but you need to address the points made by the other posters because you, my friend, did not.

I said find me winning lists. Nobody found any and i could do my own research and find high placing eldar lists with no bikes but frankly im at work and dont care to pander to randoms on the internet. If you dont like my my opinion, to bad, regular bikes with 1/3 where trash.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
I said find me winning lists. Nobody found any and i could do my own research and find high placing eldar lists with no bikes but frankly im at work and dont care to pander to randoms on the internet. If you dont like my my opinion, to bad, regular bikes with 1/3 where trash.

The point was to show competitiveness of the scatbikes then, and people did show it. So yeah, better do not go further.

And if an unit of jetbikes needs to have an 1:1 ratio of heavy weapons as troop choice to be viable, means the game is broken beyond redemption and/or the playerbase deserves all the crap GW churns out.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
I said find me winning lists.

Arbitrarily defining only lists that placed first overall is narrowing your pool to statistical irrelevancy. People brought out plenty of examples of top placing lists in a myriad of events showing that Jetbikes were frequently used by very high placing armies (that placed higher than most other factions entirely) in large numbers of events.

You're being pedantic and trying to weasle out of your original contention, which was that nobody ever ran Eldar Jetbikes before they could each take a scatterlaser.

This is demonstrably false, and evidence in the form of many army lists from different events placing in the top 10 prove that assertion is false by commonly (if not *usually*) including Jetbikes.

Nobody found any and i could do my own research and find high placing eldar lists with no bikes but frankly im at work and dont care to pander to randoms on the internet.

So...in other words people called you out on your bs and you're declaring victory and taking your toys and leaving after you moved the goalposts to a statistically irrelevant sample size.

Nice going there...chief.