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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Doesn't the heat from the las beam flash boil the area, causing the surrounding flesh to explode in a spray of boiling blood? That sounds a bit nastier than surface level tissue damage.

It's nasty, but so is having internal organs destroyed by the shock wave of a bullet passing through them. It's just messier and more visually impressive than real-world weapons, not necessarily more lethal.

We really can't say for sure. A guy writing a Space Marine book describes even the basic grunt marine as an unstoppable supersonic killing machine capable of dodging bullets and killing five ordinary men in the blink of an eye unarmed. A guy writing some other book describes marines going down in droves when they once again blunder into an ambush a toddler would have avoided.

The "truth" is probably somewhere in between and both extremes are legends or propaganda.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Doesn't the heat from the las beam flash boil the area, causing the surrounding flesh to explode in a spray of boiling blood? That sounds a bit nastier than surface level tissue damage.

It's nasty, but so is having internal organs destroyed by the shock wave of a bullet passing through them. It's just messier and more visually impressive than real-world weapons, not necessarily more lethal.

I don't about that; the agony from the heat and the detonation would be incredible. Such pain and trauma could induce shock, which would incapacitate or kill the target.
Also, if it hits the belly it could shred the intestines. If it hits the chest it could shatter the ribcage. It may not be as deep as a bullet, but it doesn't really have to be; a gaping wound would be enough to incapacitate.
Not to mention the drop in morale at seeing such a bloody spectacle.

Well, against human targets, anyway. YMMV against aliens.

The Imperium has SOME magic way to deal with shock, considering all the unarmored humans rolling around in Drop Pods.

 raverrn wrote:
The Imperium has SOME magic way to deal with shock, considering all the unarmored humans rolling around in Drop Pods.

I'm not sure you could call Space Marines unarmored, and I'm pretty sure Pods come with a harness and some sort of shock absorber.

Do guard even use drop pods? Never seen anything but marines use Drop Pods.

That's not the shock I was talking about either. You are thinking about the shock from a violent impact.
I'm talking about the physiological reaction where there is a sudden drop in blood circulation body wide, often caused by receiving a terrible injury.

Certainly. Meet Gustav.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Certainly. Meet Gustav.

Sure, that projectile would wipe out a Terminator Squad no questions asked. But you'd have to know where they are so you can point Gustav in the right direction first. :-)

 ChazSexington wrote:
Certainly. Meet Gustav.

You better not miss

Diomedes' reaction to Gustav : It's the Baaaaaneblaaaaade !

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are we talking game rules here? Because in the game rules, my fists hit like a frag grenade, and I can gaurantee you that this is not representative of anything, fictional or otherwise.

I'm talking fluff descriptions. In the fluff a lasgun hit has a pretty good chance of killing you and a very good chance of at least taking you out of the fight, but so does a hit from a modern 7.62mm rifle if you aren't wearing armor capable of stopping it. It seems like the primary difference is that the lasgun does spectacular surface-level tissue damage, while the real-world rifle bullet penetrates and mangles your insides.

Yeah... Not basing the fact that a lasgun is an explosive packed laser that vaporises mostly anything in the warhammer universe besides power armour and anything above it. SURELY a 7.62 could clearly vaporise an arm if you shot it once!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
The Imperium has SOME magic way to deal with shock, considering all the unarmored humans rolling around in Drop Pods.

I'm not sure you could call Space Marines unarmored, and I'm pretty sure Pods come with a harness and some sort of shock absorber.

Do guard even use drop pods? Never seen anything but marines use Drop Pods.

Sisters use them. Scions apparently have other methods that work better, but can't be adapted for use with power armour (or something). The odd Inquisitor will jump in with the other two. Nobody in less than Carapace though.

Commissar Terrence wrote:
Yeah... Not basing the fact that a lasgun is an explosive packed laser that vaporises mostly anything in the warhammer universe besides power armour and anything above it. SURELY a 7.62 could clearly vaporise an arm if you shot it once!

Your hyperbole is lacking, Terrence. Lasguns deal massive surface damage to biologicals, unless those biologicals are tyranids, in which case their carapace acts like inorganic armour.

Lasguns don't vaporise arms. In First and Only, Varl takes a lasgun shot to the shoulder. It destroys his shoulder and leaves his arm hanging on by a few ragged shreds.

If you shoot someone in the shoulder with an M16, you actually get a fairly similar result as the exit wound blows a baseball-sized hole in the back of said shoulder. You should know that though - this is basic, Mythbusters-level stuff.

Your hyperbole is lacking, Terrence. Lasguns deal massive surface damage to biologicals, unless those biologicals are tyranids, in which case their carapace acts like inorganic armour.

Lasguns don't vaporise arms. In First and Only, Varl takes a lasgun shot to the shoulder. It destroys his shoulder and leaves his arm hanging on by a few ragged shreds.

If you shoot someone in the shoulder with an M16, you actually get a fairly similar result as the exit wound blows a baseball-sized hole in the back of said shoulder. You should know that though - this is basic, Mythbusters-level stuff.

Sarcasm by the way.

And I might've been exaggerating about the vaporisation part. But it could and will sever limbs. (I read the first and only btw) Varl was just lucky the whole fething thing didn't come off.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Certainly. Meet Gustav.

I seen a termie survive a basilisk cannon like 20 times in my career. But THAT....

If a 300.winmag hits you it will rip your arm off. A 7.62x32 ak round will leave an arm floppy if it hits bone. The NATO 7.62x52 will shear a limb off in burst easy or a good shot to a joint. I served 3 tours in Iraq As a line medic. Your understanding of ballistics and real world weapons seems movie and book based Terrence? again this is a fantasy setting with improbable weapon systems and backwards future tech. But you seem to either over or under estimate every system you have talked about.

"But...but guys...Just say lasguns and Terminators are the best thing anywhere evar so I can still feel good about myself. Please?!"

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
If a 300.winmag hits you it will rip your arm off. A 7.62x32 ak round will leave an arm floppy if it hits bone. The NATO 7.62x52 will shear a limb off in burst easy or a good shot to a joint. I served 3 tours in Iraq As a line medic. Your understanding of ballistics and real world weapons seems movie and book based Terrence? again this is a fantasy setting with improbable weapon systems and backwards future tech. But you seem to either over or under estimate every system you have talked about.

Really, a 7.62 hits that hard? I know .50 can sever limbs, but I didn't know 7.62s can.
Why did they phase out that caliber in favor for the 5.56? Logistics?

5.56 is much lighter. 7.62 is really bad news, though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
If a 300.winmag hits you it will rip your arm off. A 7.62x32 ak round will leave an arm floppy if it hits bone. The NATO 7.62x52 will shear a limb off in burst easy or a good shot to a joint. I served 3 tours in Iraq As a line medic. Your understanding of ballistics and real world weapons seems movie and book based Terrence? again this is a fantasy setting with improbable weapon systems and backwards future tech. But you seem to either over or under estimate every system you have talked about.

Really, a 7.62 hits that hard? I know .50 can sever limbs, but I didn't know 7.62s can.
Why did they phase out that caliber in favor for the 5.56? Logistics?

You dont need to shear limbs off to kill people. 5.56 kills and maims plenty well enough for the purposes of an infantry weapon, and fully shearing limbs off isnt spectacularly common either way, requiring a solid hit on a something like an elbow joint (maybe not even then), and a 5.56 hit of the same type would leave the limb permanently crippled for life and just as out of the fight as if hit by the 7.62x51 (either can effectively internally sever something like an arm by obliterating a section of bone), but you get to carry 2-3x as much ammo and can actually effectively control the weapon in automatic fire, unlike a 7.62x51 chambered weapon of similar weight. The 7.62x51 is used primarily for longer range and barrier penetration.

Kinda the same way you dont need a Lascannon to kill a Space Marine outright when a Krak Missile will do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
If a 300.winmag hits you it will rip your arm off. A 7.62x32 ak round will leave an arm floppy if it hits bone. The NATO 7.62x52 will shear a limb off in burst easy or a good shot to a joint. I served 3 tours in Iraq As a line medic. Your understanding of ballistics and real world weapons seems movie and book based Terrence? again this is a fantasy setting with improbable weapon systems and backwards future tech. But you seem to either over or under estimate every system you have talked about.

Really, a 7.62 hits that hard? I know .50 can sever limbs, but I didn't know 7.62s can.
Why did they phase out that caliber in favor for the 5.56? Logistics?

You are basically correct; the main reason for changing to a smaller caliber is pretty much logistics. It's more economical to have a round that is still lethal but smaller - you can make and carry more of them. Some believe the idea was to create a less lethal round because it is better to wound a soldier than kill him, thus requiring more enemy personnel to tend to the casualty, but that is more myth than truth. However, there are developments for an in-between size (such as the 6.65) because the 5.56 loses its power at extended ranges and through light cover.

I'm late to the game, so maybe someone already mentioned this...

An M1-Abrams can certainly kill any sucker in Tac-dread armour:

1) A Vanquisher round, at S8 AP2, can kill a Termie no problem.

2) On page 236 of IA1:2nd, the description of a Vanquisher round sounds exactly like a M829 depleted uranium sabot round. Clocking in at 41 lbs, with a muzzle velocity of 5,500 ft/s, the M829 can penetrate 21 inches of steel armour. The newer variants only get better.

3) The M1-Abrams is typicallt equipped with M829+ rounds for killing enemy tanks.

4) On the off chance the M829 depleted uranium dart does not penetrate the Termie armour, the kinetic energy alone from impact would turm that super-human soldier to mush. I'm more inclined to think the Termie would just gib.

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm late to the game, so maybe someone already mentioned this...

An M1-Abrams can certainly kill any sucker in Tac-dread armour:

1) A Vanquisher round, at S8 AP2, can kill a Termie no problem.

2) On page 236 of IA1:2nd, the description of a Vanquisher round sounds exactly like a M829 depleted uranium sabot round. Clocking in at 41 lbs, with a muzzle velocity of 5,500 ft/s, the M829 can penetrate 21 inches of steel armour. The newer variants only get better.

3) The M1-Abrams is typicallt equipped with M829+ rounds for killing enemy tanks.

4) On the off chance the M829 depleted uranium dart does not penetrate the Termie armour, the kinetic energy alone from impact would turm that super-human soldier to mush. I'm more inclined to think the Termie would just gib.

This, i really dont want to go into the math behind it all but......ah screw it!

a 41 lbs rounds weighs in at 18.6 kg

traveling at 5,500 ft/s comes out to 1676 m/s basic Physics we can use Kinematic euqations 1/2 MV^2

16.6KG*1676M/S^2 /2 = 26.12 Mega joules of energy

to put that in prospective, a car hitting at wall a 10m/s roughly 25MPH generates .07megajouls.

That termie is gonna be goo.....


MATH HAMMER!

 Backspacehacker wrote:

That termie is gonna be goo.....!

Only about half the time!

You have to pass your To Wound roll, and he has his invuln too.

He'll be OK.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You have to pass your To Wound roll, and he has his invuln too.

But the Strength of such a weapon is surely enough to wound a marine on 2+, then he only has his 5+ Inv save. And any frontline infantry of ours will also have AT weapons in the form of LAW rockets and mines. A Terminator is easily heavy enough to trigger AT mines, and even if his armor stays intact the blast of 9.5 kilograms of TNT will turn the wearer into slush.

Assuming that said mine is no more powerful than a direct hit by the ridiculously oversized battle cannon, he will get his armor save and be just fine.

Aren't marines supposed to be resistant to that sort of thing? I don't think turning marines to goo with concussive blasts is as easy as you are making it out to be. Not to mention that PA variants are probably designed to resist damage like that.

Given that Marines have fallen a kilometer and then just walked away, kinetic impacts seems like something they resist fine.

Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
You and Peregrine often argue that 40k weapons, armour, etc. is wildly inferior technologically to what we possess today

Well, that's because it is in many ways. For example, the LRBT is so obviously flawed that even a WWI-era tank designer would wonder how anyone could be incompetent enough to build one. Same with the Land Raider. 40k computer systems are an absolute joke. Basic 1970s-era guided missiles are treated as borderline magic technology. Drones are virtually nonexistent. Etc. Even those lasguns don't seem all that impressive, in pure firepower terms. The damage is described as spectacular, but they don't really seem to be any more lethal than modern rifles.

Not all computer systems are a joke. Certainly the systems used in the cybernetica seem pretty advanced, ditto a titan. A cybercortex is prety good. Its just it is very rare to get something more than seemingly valave operated...