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Hello all,

So, I was recently looking at rules for the Grey knight land raider redeemer of forge world - and one of the rules is as follows
'when assaulting directly out of the land raider, a grey knights squad counts as having initiative 10 for the first round of an assault'
My question is - if you had a unit of terminators with the (unwieldy) hammers, would they count as I 10 or I 1?
Thanks

I don't see how a generic permission could override a specific restriction.

Naw wrote:
I don't see how a generic permission could override a specific restriction.

Sorry - I don't understand what you mean?

That's actually a really good question given that neither rule is an initiative modifier, but rather a set value. My recommendation would be to email Forge World. It's my understanding that they are really good about replying. If you go that route, please post the answer here.

Looking at the rules again, though I would actually be inclined to say that with the wording of the rules, Unwieldy would take precedence. This rule states that the model "counts as having initiative 10". Unwieldy says that the unit "attacks at initiative 1".

Unwieldy is not a set modifier; it just forces you to pile in and attack at Initiative 1. It doesn't affect, nor does it care about, your actual Initiative characteristic.

necronlad42 wrote:
So, I was recently looking at rules for the Grey knight land raider redeemer of forge world - and one of the rules is as follows
'when assaulting directly out of the land raider, a grey knights squad counts as having initiative 10 for the first round of an assault'

Which book is that in?

beast_gts wrote:

necronlad42 wrote:
So, I was recently looking at rules for the Grey knight land raider redeemer of forge world - and one of the rules is as follows
'when assaulting directly out of the land raider, a grey knights squad counts as having initiative 10 for the first round of an assault'

Which book is that in?

Imperial armour apocalypse 2 - which is, as far as I'm aware, the most up to date rules for the tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:
My recommendation would be to email Forge World. It's my understanding that they are really good about replying. If you go that route, please post the answer here.

Good idea, ill email them now - thanks

In case you missed my point, Unwieldy would take precedence. The Land Raider modifies their Initiative to 10, but Unwieldy will force them to Pile In and fight at Initiative Step 1 regardless of their actual Initiative value.

Unwieldy doesn't affect your actual Initiative, it just changes the normal sequence for fighting in close combat.

necronlad42 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

necronlad42 wrote:
So, I was recently looking at rules for the Grey knight land raider redeemer of forge world - and one of the rules is as follows
'when assaulting directly out of the land raider, a grey knights squad counts as having initiative 10 for the first round of an assault'

Which book is that in?

Imperial armour apocalypse 2 - which is, as far as I'm aware, the most up to date rules for the tank.

Isn't IA2-2nd newer? - https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Imperial-Armour-Volume-Two-War-Machines-of-the-Adeptus-Astartes-Second-Edition

 Cheexsta wrote:
In case you missed my point, Unwieldy would take precedence. The Land Raider modifies their Initiative to 10, but Unwieldy will force them to Pile In and fight at Initiative Step 1 regardless of their actual Initiative value.

Unwieldy doesn't affect your actual Initiative, it just changes the normal sequence for fighting in close combat.

Ah sorry, didn't see your post,
why is it though that unwieldy would reduce the initiative of 10 down to one - and not be the other way round - as the unwieldy is a rule that means the wielder attacks at initiative 1, but then the land raider says the unit has I 10 on the first round? They are both stating that the initiatives are certain values and neither is a modifier

He's saying that while you'd have an Initiative of 10 from the land raider, you'd attack at Initiative 1 because that's what the Unwieldy rule does - it ignores your Initiative and makes you fight at I1

 EnTyme wrote:
That's actually a really good question given that neither rule is an initiative modifier, but rather a set value. My recommendation would be to email Forge World. It's my understanding that they are really good about replying. If you go that route, please post the answer here.

Set Values ARE modifiers, from General Principles at the front of the BRB:

Modifiers
Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. A model’s Initiative cannot be modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified below 0.

Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).

 EnTyme wrote:
Looking at the rules again, though I would actually be inclined to say that with the wording of the rules, Unwieldy would take precedence. This rule states that the model "counts as having initiative 10". Unwieldy says that the unit "attacks at initiative 1".

I disagree. To me they are doing the same thing. If they are doing the same thing to different set values, then we review Basic vs Advanced which allows for the codex rule to have precedence over the BRB's Advanced rule.

 EnTyme wrote:
I would actually be inclined to say that with the wording of the rules, Unwieldy would take precedence. This rule states that the model "counts as having initiative 10". Unwieldy says that the unit "attacks at initiative 1".

I agree with this. My understanding of what the rule does is essentially this:

The wording of the rule as stated in the OP seems to suggest that the change of Initiative to 10 is applied either as soon as the unit leaves the Land Raider or as soon as they know they've made a successful charge after leaving the Land Raider. The Unwieldy Special Rule is applied during close combat, and if and only if the weapon is actually used to make an attack, which is after the whole Initiative 10 modifier is applied. So they would be Initiative 1 when attacking with those weapons, regardless of whether or not they use this particular Land Raider with this particular Special Rule.

As a Side Note: Setting a value of any characteristic to a set value (e.g. 1) is a modifier because you are modifying the base value of the characteristic, regardless of how you do it.

 IllumiNini wrote:
The wording of the rule as stated in the OP seems to suggest that the change of Initiative to 10 is applied either as soon as the unit leaves the Land Raider or as soon as they know they've made a successful charge after leaving the Land Raider. The Unwieldy Special Rule is applied during close combat, and if and only if the weapon is actually used to make an attack, which is after the whole Initiative 10 modifier is applied. So they would be Initiative 1 when attacking with those weapons, regardless of whether or not they use this particular Land Raider with this particular Special Rule.

The timing of when modifiers are applied are technically irrelevant per the section on Multiple Modifiers.

As for the duration of the time the Initiative 10 modifier applies... A unit is not generally considered "assaulting from a Transport" unless it disembarked that turn. A Tactical Marine Squad that Disembarks from a Rhino is prevented from Charging that turn, but not the following turn.

 Charistoph wrote:
The timing of when modifiers are applied are technically irrelevant per the section on Multiple Modifiers.

Yes, this is true, but when making an assault, you choose which close combat weapon you wish to attack with (which is something people seem to forget because they either only ever use one particular weapon per model in CC or they forget about the other CC weapons it has). What I mean to say is this:

From the wording of the rule, the Grey Knights that disembark from the Land Raider strike at Initiative 10 in the Assault Phase of the turn they disembark from said Land Raider. Now, this implies to me that this modifier is applied as soon as the Grey Knights disembark from the Land Raider. Furthermore, the player doesn't decide to use a weapon with the Unwieldy Special Rule until the Grey Knights have successfully charged their target(s) and are determining which weapons to attack with (and thus the Initiative order). Ergo, I would argue that they are attacking at Initiative 1 because they made a choice to attack with an Unwieldy weapon after the Initiative 10 Modifier was applied.

My Warboss profile says it has I4 does this mean when using a PK he fights at I4? No cuz PK is unwieldy and the rule let's you keep your init and ignores it.
Warboss gets buffed by psykic power boosting init does this mean he attacks at I4 or I9 with PK? No cuz the PK is unwieldy and let's you keep your init and ignores it. It doesn't reduce combat awareness or physical speed. It's just so cumbersome that it it doesn't matter.

It's extremely simple, unwieldy wins out. The model counts as I10, meaning it is I10 at that time. Unless you can show me a rule that shows that I10 removes unwieldy, it is still in effect and they still strike at I1. This is not a case of a specific codex taking precedent over BRB whatsoever.

Yeah, some people seem confused about what Unwieldy actually says. It is not an initiative modifier, nor does it even mention the initiative value of the model it is affecting. It references "The Initiative 1 Step", which is a point in time, not a value. The model's attacks are made during the initiative 1 step, but the model's initiative is not actually set to 1. This is important, because it is functionally different than being a modifier. If Unwieldy set the model's initiative to 1, then that would come into effect during sweeping advance rolls, blind tests, etc.

As a comparison, if you had a special rule that said your shooting attacks always hit on a 2+, that does not give your model BS5. Whether the model is snap firing at BS1, or has a +1BS bonus from something, it would still hit on a 2+. Likewise, if you have a special rule that says you attack during the Initiative 1 step, it does not give you initiative 1. Whether you have a special rule that sets your Initiative to 10 or not is irrelevant, you still attack during the Initiative 1 step.

IllumiNini wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The timing of when modifiers are applied are technically irrelevant per the section on Multiple Modifiers.

Yes, this is true, but when making an assault, you choose which close combat weapon you wish to attack with (which is something people seem to forget because they either only ever use one particular weapon per model in CC or they forget about the other CC weapons it has). What I mean to say is this:

From the wording of the rule, the Grey Knights that disembark from the Land Raider strike at Initiative 10 in the Assault Phase of the turn they disembark from said Land Raider. Now, this implies to me that this modifier is applied as soon as the Grey Knights disembark from the Land Raider. Furthermore, the player doesn't decide to use a weapon with the Unwieldy Special Rule until the Grey Knights have successfully charged their target(s) and are determining which weapons to attack with (and thus the Initiative order). Ergo, I would argue that they are attacking at Initiative 1 because they made a choice to attack with an Unwieldy weapon after the Initiative 10 Modifier was applied.

You still said the exact same thing. You are presenting the concept that timing of when the modifier applies as being pertinent. It is not. If a Blood Angel Assault Squad Marine is hit by a Malediction that makes him Str 1 for Close Combat Attacks, Furious Charge will not make him Str 2 just because it comes later.

Bojazz wrote:Yeah, some people seem confused about what Unwieldy actually says. It is not an initiative modifier, nor does it even mention the initiative value of the model it is affecting. It references "The Initiative 1 Step", which is a point in time, not a value. The model's attacks are made during the initiative 1 step, but the model's initiative is not actually set to 1. This is important, because it is functionally different than being a modifier. If Unwieldy set the model's initiative to 1, then that would come into effect during sweeping advance rolls, blind tests, etc.

As a comparison, if you had a special rule that said your shooting attacks always hit on a 2+, that does not give your model BS5. Whether the model is snap firing at BS1, or has a +1BS bonus from something, it would still hit on a 2+. Likewise, if you have a special rule that says you attack during the Initiative 1 step, it does not give you initiative 1. Whether you have a special rule that sets your Initiative to 10 or not is irrelevant, you still attack during the Initiative 1 step.

If you think that Unwieldy is not modifying the Initiative, then how can it force the change in Pile In and Initiative Step? In the Assault Phase that is all Initiative normally affects (yes, I know there are some weapons which do funky things with Initiative tests, that is why I am saying "normally").

 Charistoph wrote:

If you think that Unwieldy is not modifying the Initiative, then how can it force the change in Pile In and Initiative Step?

Because it is a special rule. Special rules can break or bend the main game rules. In fact that is their very definition in the game on page 156. Unwieldy says that the model piles in and fights at the Initiative 1 step. It says absolutely nothing about modifying the Initiative characteristic. So a model with Unwieldy breaks the normal fight sub-phase rules and piles in/fights at the initiative 1 step regardless of it's actual Initiative. If, during combat, it is hit by a blind weapon or loses combat, then since Unwieldy has not modified it's Initiative at all, it uses it's normal value.

 Charistoph wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The timing of when modifiers are applied are technically irrelevant per the section on Multiple Modifiers.

Yes, this is true, but when making an assault, you choose which close combat weapon you wish to attack with (which is something people seem to forget because they either only ever use one particular weapon per model in CC or they forget about the other CC weapons it has). What I mean to say is this:

From the wording of the rule, the Grey Knights that disembark from the Land Raider strike at Initiative 10 in the Assault Phase of the turn they disembark from said Land Raider. Now, this implies to me that this modifier is applied as soon as the Grey Knights disembark from the Land Raider. Furthermore, the player doesn't decide to use a weapon with the Unwieldy Special Rule until the Grey Knights have successfully charged their target(s) and are determining which weapons to attack with (and thus the Initiative order). Ergo, I would argue that they are attacking at Initiative 1 because they made a choice to attack with an Unwieldy weapon after the Initiative 10 Modifier was applied.

You still said the exact same thing. You are presenting the concept that timing of when the modifier applies as being pertinent. It is not. If a Blood Angel Assault Squad Marine is hit by a Malediction that makes him Str 1 for Close Combat Attacks, Furious Charge will not make him Str 2 just because it comes later.

Then I'm going to say exactly the same thing until it sinks in. Consider the following case:

A Grey Knights Tactical Squad (I have no idea if they can actually take Tactical Squads, but for the purposes of what I want to say, bear with me) disembarks from the Land Raider with this aforementioned Special Rule. Consider a Sergeant that is equipped with a Power Fist (Unwieldy). Saying that the order of Initiative Modifier application doesn't matter/happens at the same time opens you up to saying that the Power Fist can strike at the same as, for example, the rest of the Tactical Squad when they use Krakk Grenades or Chain Swords (@ initiative 10) rather than at Initiative 1.

What I'm saying is that, in this case, Unwieldy gets applied later not because the rules demand it to be so but because of the case that a choice was made AFTER the Initiative 10 Modifier was applied to use a weapon with the Unwieldy Special Rule. The rules don't demand it, but the timing of the choice and the nature of the weapon demand it.

I do understand what you're saying about the rules relative to the order of application of Modifiers, but I'm not sure how I can make this clearer. So far all you've managed to do is say that I'm wrong based on a rule that is clearly fuzzy on this topic (otherwise this would have been solved by now or it wound't be an issue at all) and you haven't seemed to provide any specific solution to this particular problem (i.e. whether they strike at Initiative 10 or Initiative 1).

It's really simple: Unwieldy doesn't care about your Initiative value. It doesn't look at your Initiative value, and it doesn't modify your Initiative value. All it does is tell you when you get to make Pile In moves and when you get to make close combat attacks.

Yes, this timing is normally defined by what your Initiative value is, but this special rule overrides that by telling you to do those things at a specific Initiative Step instead of using the normal rules.

Imagine I have a son. My son is allowed to go to bed at 8:00 if he is 8, 9:00 if he is 9, 10:00 if he is 10, and so on. If he is naughty, he must go to bed at 8:00. That is not a modifier of his age, but instead a modifier of when he is allowed to go to bed.

It is the same thing here. A model with Initiative 4 Piles In and fights at Initiative Step 4, a model with Initiative 5 Piles In and fights at Initiative Step 5, and so on. If the model is fighting with an Unwieldy weapon, it Piles In and fights at Initiative Step 1. This is not a modifier of the model's Initiative value, but instead a modifier of when it is allowed to Pile In and fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

necronlad42 wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
In case you missed my point, Unwieldy would take precedence. The Land Raider modifies their Initiative to 10, but Unwieldy will force them to Pile In and fight at Initiative Step 1 regardless of their actual Initiative value.

Unwieldy doesn't affect your actual Initiative, it just changes the normal sequence for fighting in close combat.

Ah sorry, didn't see your post,
why is it though that unwieldy would reduce the initiative of 10 down to one - and not be the other way round - as the unwieldy is a rule that means the wielder attacks at initiative 1, but then the land raider says the unit has I 10 on the first round? They are both stating that the initiatives are certain values and neither is a modifier

You're still thinking of Unwieldy as a modifier. Where in the Unwieldy rule does it say that the model's Initiative is modified?

All it does it change the timing of when you get to perform an action. That timing is normally defined by the model's Initiative value, but when attacking with an Unwieldy weapon, you must perform that action at a different time instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

If you think that Unwieldy is not modifying the Initiative, then how can it force the change in Pile In and Initiative Step? In the Assault Phase that is all Initiative normally affects (yes, I know there are some weapons which do funky things with Initiative tests, that is why I am saying "normally").

It changes the Pile In and Initiative Step because the rule tells you to do so. Just because Initiative normally only affects when you Pile In and attack, doesn't mean that anything that changes this timing must therefore modify the model's Initiative value. There's no logical connection that changing the Initiative Step timing must mean that you're modifying the model's Initiative.

Bojazz wrote:Because it is a special rule. Special rules can break or bend the main game rules. In fact that is their very definition in the game on page 156. Unwieldy says that the model piles in and fights at the Initiative 1 step. It says absolutely nothing about modifying the Initiative characteristic. So a model with Unwieldy breaks the normal fight sub-phase rules and piles in/fights at the initiative 1 step regardless of it's actual Initiative. If, during combat, it is hit by a blind weapon or loses combat, then since Unwieldy has not modified it's Initiative at all, it uses it's normal value.

Being a Special Rule means absolutely nothing. Furious Charge modifies a stat and it is a Special Rule.

And it does not state "regardless of its actual Initiative" because in most cases, it does not need to. The Initiative Value is what normally determines this case. For all intents and purposes, both values are being modified when you modify the Initiative, Initiative for Characteristic Test and Pile In/Fight time.

IllumiNini wrote:Then I'm going to say exactly the same thing until it sinks in.

Repetition means nothing without an actual rule to back you up (and there are posters who could tell you stories about me on this). Timing still means nothing as to which modifier gains precedence. If you can demonstrate otherwise, please present an actual rule.

IllumiNini wrote:Consider the following case:

A Grey Knights Tactical Squad (I have no idea if they can actually take Tactical Squads, but for the purposes of what I want to say, bear with me) disembarks from the Land Raider with this aforementioned Special Rule. Consider a Sergeant that is equipped with a Power Fist (Unwieldy). Saying that the order of Initiative Modifier application doesn't matter/happens at the same time opens you up to saying that the Power Fist can strike at the same as, for example, the rest of the Tactical Squad when they use Krakk Grenades or Chain Swords (@ initiative 10) rather than at Initiative 1.

You are presenting this as a case of SHOULD. I am viewing it as a case of CAN. You want to talk 'should', present it as such. Personally, I don't really care about your opinion on 'should' unless we are playing against each other. Until then and on here, I mostly concern myself with the 'can'.

IllumiNini wrote:What I'm saying is that, in this case, Unwieldy gets applied later not because the rules demand it to be so but because of the case that a choice was made AFTER the Initiative 10 Modifier was applied to use a weapon with the Unwieldy Special Rule. The rules don't demand it, but the timing of the choice and the nature of the weapon demand it.

If there are no rules that demand it, then the timing of the choice and the nature of the weapon do not demand it. Without the rules to support it, the timing means nothing. Without the rules, the Weapon has no capacity to demand anything.

IllumiNini wrote:I do understand what you're saying about the rules relative to the order of application of Modifiers, but I'm not sure how I can make this clearer. So far all you've managed to do is say that I'm wrong based on a rule that is clearly fuzzy on this topic (otherwise this would have been solved by now or it wound't be an issue at all) and you haven't seemed to provide any specific solution to this particular problem (i.e. whether they strike at Initiative 10 or Initiative 1).

Actually I have. Did you bother to actually read any of my previous posts?

 Charistoph wrote:
I disagree. To me they are doing the same thing. If they are doing the same thing to different set values, then we review Basic vs Advanced which allows for the codex rule to have precedence over the BRB's Advanced rule.

 Charistoph wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:What I'm saying is that, in this case, Unwieldy gets applied later not because the rules demand it to be so but because of the case that a choice was made AFTER the Initiative 10 Modifier was applied to use a weapon with the Unwieldy Special Rule. The rules don't demand it, but the timing of the choice and the nature of the weapon demand it.

If there are no rules that demand it, then the timing of the choice and the nature of the weapon do not demand it. Without the rules to support it, the timing means nothing. Without the rules, the Weapon has no capacity to demand anything.

So in the context of my example, what you're saying 'can' happen (because, as you said, you're more concerned about what 'can' happen than what 'should') is that the Power Fist can strike at Initiative 10 because there's no order to the Modifiers? I still humbly disagree that in the context of the problem, the modifiers cannot applied at different times in the turn. But let's be honest: We could argue until the cows come home about this particular point and get nowhere.


And the above assumes that Unwieldy is a Modifier. Cheexta is right. It isn't a Modifier. I'm happy Cheexta brought it up and I'm pretty sure I've never been so glad to wrong about a rule (because I obviously made the mistake of thinking it was a Modifier). The description for Unwieldy is exactly as follows:

Warhammer 40,000: The Rulebook wrote:A Model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

That is it word for word. So as sure as I am that you're wrong about the timing in this case, this does the job of saying that it should be at Initiative step 1 anyway. It describes the fact that it strikes at Initiative step 1 makes no mention of the unit's actual Initiative (modified or not) or any exceptions.

With the way that unwieldy is worded, it trumps anything dealing with the models actual initiative value, since the model simply Strikes at I1.

Unwieldy does not set the models initiate to anything, the model still has whatever I value it has. However it still strikes at I1.

 Charistoph wrote:
Being a Special Rule means absolutely nothing. Furious Charge modifies a stat and it is a Special Rule.

Furious charge SAYS that it modifies a stat. Unwieldy does not. I said being a special rule allows unwieldy to modify the game mechanics, which it does. It modifies the timing of the fight sub-phase. It clearly says this right in the rules for itself. What it DOESN'T say is that it modifies the model's initiative characteristic.

 Charistoph wrote:
The Initiative Value is what normally determines this case. For all intents and purposes, both values are being modified when you modify the Initiative, Initiative for Characteristic Test and Pile In/Fight time.

The keyword there is "normally". The use of Unwieldy is not a normal circumstance,it is a special rule which CHANGES normal circumstances. NORMALLY a model's initiative value determines when it attacks. in this case, Unwieldy determines when the model attacks.

As a precedence that rules can change when models attack without modifying any of their characteristics; The Ork Painmob allows its units to pile in and fight during the Ork player's movement phase. This a rule that modifies when models may attack. Not let's compare the wording.

Painmob: (cutting out unrelated bits) - "At the start of your Movement phase, an Ork Painmob can 'Pile on Da Pain!'. ... allowed to Pile In and fight as if it were a Fight sub-phase..."

Unwieldy: "A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at the Initiative 1 step."

Both rules tell you 3 things. Who they effect (painmob, or model with weapon), what the model does (pile in and fight), and when it may do it (movement phase, or init 1 step). Neither rule mentions anything about characteristics, because they don't need to. Special rules can modify when things happen without needing to modify characteristics.

IllumiNini wrote:So in the context of my example, what you're saying 'can' happen (because, as you said, you're more concerned about what 'can' happen than what 'should') is that the Power Fist can strike at Initiative 10 because there's no order to the Modifiers? I still humbly disagree that in the context of the problem, the modifiers cannot applied at different times in the turn. But let's be honest: We could argue until the cows come home about this particular point and get nowhere.

You can argue till the cows come home, but without any actual rules to support your case... The simple fact is that Multiple Modifiers are not applied in order of application but by precedence. If it was by order of application, then Furious Charge could Modify a Set Value Modification. This is not the case, though. Furious Charge could not modify a Set Value Modification.

IllumiNini wrote:And the above assumes that Unwieldy is a Modifier. Cheexta is right. It isn't a Modifier. I'm happy Cheexta brought it up and I'm pretty sure I've never been so glad to wrong about a rule (because I obviously made the mistake of thinking it was a Modifier). The description for Unwieldy is exactly as follows:

Warhammer 40,000: The Rulebook wrote:A Model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

That is it word for word. So as sure as I am that you're wrong about the timing in this case, this does the job of saying that it should be at Initiative step 1 anyway. It describes the fact that it strikes at Initiative step 1 makes no mention of the unit's actual Initiative (modified or not) or any exceptions.

So when a model Piles In Fights in Initiative is not something to be modified? If that is the case then Unwieldy does nothing because it changes nothing.

DeathReaper wrote:With the way that unwieldy is worded, it trumps anything dealing with the models actual initiative value, since the model simply Strikes at I1.

Unwieldy does not set the models initiate to anything, the model still has whatever I value it has. However it still strikes at I1.

Bojazz wrote:The keyword there is "normally". The use of Unwieldy is not a normal circumstance,it is a special rule which CHANGES normal circumstances. NORMALLY a model's initiative value determines when it attacks. in this case, Unwieldy determines when the model attacks.

As a precedence that rules can change when models attack without modifying any of their characteristics; The Ork Painmob allows its units to pile in and fight during the Ork player's movement phase. This a rule that modifies when models may attack. Not let's compare the wording.

Painmob: (cutting out unrelated bits) - "At the start of your Movement phase, an Ork Painmob can 'Pile on Da Pain!'. ... allowed to Pile In and fight as if it were a Fight sub-phase..."

Unwieldy: "A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at the Initiative 1 step."

Both rules tell you 3 things. Who they effect (painmob, or model with weapon), what the model does (pile in and fight), and when it may do it (movement phase, or init 1 step). Neither rule mentions anything about characteristics, because they don't need to. Special rules can modify when things happen without needing to modify characteristics.

I disagree. To me, they intrinsically connected. It is probably a case of interpretations, then.

By that logic, the Fleshbane special rule would modify the model/weapon's strength value to 2 higher than whatever it is rolling to wound against. Because that's normally how the "to wound" roll requirement is determined. This is clearly not the case, it simply ignores the normal procedure and makes you wound on a 2+ no matter what. Likewise, Unwieldy ignores the normal procedure and makes you attack at the init 1 phase no matter what initiative you have.

Let's compare it to other special rules that actually modify characteristics.

Concussive - "A model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon with this special rule is reduced to initiative 1 until the end of the following assault phase." Note how it states that it modifies the model's initiative to 1.

Furious Charge - "In a turn in which a model with this special rule charges into combat, it adds +1 to its Strength characteristic until the end of the Assault phase." Note how it states that it modifies the model's strength by adding 1.

Unwieldy - "A model fighting with this weapon piles in and fights at initiative step1" Note the clear difference in the wording here. There is no set modifier, or addition or subtraction to any characteristic, it just states a time in which the model may pile in/fight.

From page 156 - "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule." So special rules have permission to break the normal game rules and do whatever they say they do without having to adhere to the normal process. In this case, Unwieldy says that the model fights at initiative step 1. Nothing else in the game needs to be adjusted or modified to make this happen, because the special rule has permission to make it happen all by itself.

Bojazz wrote:
By that logic, the Fleshbane special rule would modify the model/weapon's strength value to 2 higher than whatever it is rolling to wound against. Because that's normally how the "to wound" roll requirement is determined. This is clearly not the case, it simply ignores the normal procedure and makes you wound on a 2+ no matter what. Likewise, Unwieldy ignores the normal procedure and makes you attack at the init 1 phase no matter what initiative you have.

Let's compare it to other special rules that actually modify characteristics.

Concussive - "A model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon with this special rule is reduced to initiative 1 until the end of the following assault phase." Note how it states that it modifies the model's initiative to 1.

Furious Charge - "In a turn in which a model with this special rule charges into combat, it adds +1 to its Strength characteristic until the end of the Assault phase." Note how it states that it modifies the model's strength by adding 1.

Unwieldy - "A model fighting with this weapon piles in and fights at initiative step1" Note the clear difference in the wording here. There is no set modifier, or addition or subtraction to any characteristic, it just states a time in which the model may pile in/fight.

An interesting point. Something to consider, definitely. And yes, I understand that is what some have been trying to present.

However, you are looking at this from the end result modification having precedence regardless of the Characteristic or its modifiers. Do you have a rule to support this stance?

I am looking at it as the Initiative modifier also modifying the Fight Pile In and Fight Step as well as the Characteristic. Just as Furious Charge improves the To-Wound step as well as the Str Characterstic.

To put it bluntly, Unwieldy does not state that it overrides all other Initiative modifiers which in turn modify what Unwieldy modifies as well.

As an interesting side note, Poisoned (2+) is actually better than Fleshbane due to the affects that Str may have on the result.

Bojazz wrote:
From page 156 - "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule." So special rules have permission to break the normal game rules and do whatever they say they do without having to adhere to the normal process. In this case, Unwieldy says that the model fights at initiative step 1. Nothing else in the game needs to be adjusted or modified to make this happen, because the special rule has permission to make it happen all by itself.

I am well aware of the definition of Special Rules. If you may have noticed, that definition was never in question by myself.

What I was discussing is WHAT was changed and HOW. So rehashing the definition of Special Rules is both pedantic and obnoxious to the point of trolling.

Bojazz wrote:

From page 156 - "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule." So special rules have permission to break the normal game rules and do whatever they say they do without having to adhere to the normal process. In this case, Unwieldy says that the model fights at initiative step 1. Nothing else in the game needs to be adjusted or modified to make this happen, because the special rule has permission to make it happen all by itself.

But then surely the rule from the redeemer also counts as a special rule - meaning that it can 'break or bend one of the main game rules' - resulting in a clash - the way I see it, neither appears to win over the other or trump the other - neither state that they can or cant be affected by the other rule for example