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The entire Grey Knight unit would count as having Initiative 10 during the first round of combat, but anyone in the unit with an Unwieldy weapon would fight at Initiative Step 1. The guys with Thunder hammers still count as having Initiative 10 in that round, but they are forced to make their attacks at Initiative Step 1. Both rules are adhered to. Unwieldy doesn't modify anyone's Initiative it simply tells you when you make your attacks.

xlDuke wrote:
The entire Grey Knight unit would count as having Initiative 10 during the first round of combat, but anyone in the unit with an Unwieldy weapon would fight at Initiative Step 1. The guys with Thunder hammers still count as having Initiative 10 in that round, but they are forced to make their attacks at Initiative Step 1. Both rules are adhered to. Unwieldy doesn't modify anyone's Initiative it simply tells you when you make your attacks.

Exactly as written. There is nothing in Redeemer's rules telling you can strike at Initiative 10 after choosing TH as your weapon of choice. On the contrary, you are explicitly told when you are allowed to strike or pile in.

 Charistoph wrote:
However, you are looking at this from the end result modification having precedence regardless of the Characteristic or its modifiers. Do you have a rule to support this stance?

I am not looking at this from the end result modification, I am looking at this from a "do exactly as i am told" standpoint. I am told to fight at the initiative 1 step with Unwieldy weapons. I am not told to modify my initiative characteristic, so I don't. With the redeemer rules, i am told to modify my initiative to 10, so I do. And I am also told to fight at the initiative 1 step by Unwieldy, so I do. I now have an initiative 10 model fighting at the initiative 1 step, and I got here by following exactly what the rules told me to do.

 Charistoph wrote:
To put it bluntly, Unwieldy does not state that it overrides all other Initiative modifiers which in turn modify what Unwieldy modifies as well.

It doesn't say that because It's not an initiative modifier. It has no interaction with initiative modifiers, so there's nothing for it to ignore. It simply says the models fights at a specific time. To have the model fight at any other time is breaking the rule.

 Charistoph wrote:
I am well aware of the definition of Special Rules. If you may have noticed, that definition was never in question by myself.

What I was discussing is WHAT was changed and HOW. So rehashing the definition of Special Rules is both pedantic and obnoxious to the point of trolling.

I'm not trying to troll or upset you, and I'm sorry if I came across as such. I was just using the rule to support an argument. "This is my stance, and these are the rules to support it" is not obnoxious and pedantic, it's basic debate practice. I was pointing out that Unwieldy has permission to change the way you determine who fights and when, because Special rules have permission to do that. You are asking how the rule has permission to ignore Initiative modifiers, and that is how. It modifies The Fight Sub-phase by adding in the caveat that Unwieldy weapons strike at a specific time. It does not need to modify Initiative, because it has permission to modify how the game is played. WHAT has changed? The method for determining when a model fights. HOW has it changed? A special rule called Unwieldy modified it from "Initiative Step X, where X is the model's Initiative" to "Initiative Step 1".

necronlad42 wrote:

Bojazz wrote:

From page 156 - "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule." So special rules have permission to break the normal game rules and do whatever they say they do without having to adhere to the normal process. In this case, Unwieldy says that the model fights at initiative step 1. Nothing else in the game needs to be adjusted or modified to make this happen, because the special rule has permission to make it happen all by itself.

But then surely the rule from the redeemer also counts as a special rule - meaning that it can 'break or bend one of the main game rules' - resulting in a clash - the way I see it, neither appears to win over the other or trump the other - neither state that they can or cant be affected by the other rule for example

The redeemer indeed counts as a special rule and is allowed to break or bend the game rules. It does this by modifying the initiative characteristic of the models it affects. So instead of using the normal value, you use 10. Unwieldy, however says that it modifies when a model strikes. So instead of using the normal method (Initiative) you use the Initiative 1 step. Both rules can resolve in any order without conflict.


Another comparison is Kharn. He always hits on a 2+ in close combat. It does not mention anything about his Weapon Skill characteristic. You can give him +1 WS, or set is WS to 1, and he will still hit on a 2+ because his special rule modifies how the "to hit" roll is determined. Likewise, Unwieldy modifies when a model fights. It does not mention anything about it's Initiative characteristic. You can give the model +1 Initiative, or set its Initiative to 10 and it will still fight at the Initiative 1 step because it modifies how when a model fights is determined.

unwieldy says you strike at I1. If you cast warp speed on a librarian with a force axe you are technically I7, but you still strike at I1, because your weapon has the unwieldy rule.

 Charistoph wrote:
However, you are looking at this from the end result modification having precedence regardless of the Characteristic or its modifiers. Do you have a rule to support this stance?

What Modifier? Unwieldy does not modify the models I value...

Charistoph, the basic rule is that the model fights at the Initiative Step equal to its Initiative value. The Unwieldy special rule tells you that the model fights at Initiative Step 1.

Your argument is that the only way it can do this is by modifying the Initiative. However, the rules do not back this up, and it's a false leap in logic to assume that this is the case. See my previous analogy of children's bedtimes to see why.

As others have mentioned, there are other rules that affect an end result without modifying the base mechanic that normally defines it: Fleshbane doesn't modify the model's Strength, even though it changes the To Wound requirement; Khârn doesn't modify WS values, even though he always hits on a 2+; Fearless doesn't modify the Ld characteristic, even though it forces you to auto pass the relevant Ld tests.

You are right in that Unwieldy doesn't say "regardless of its Initiative value", but this is because it doesn't have to. It would be clearer if it did so, but it's not strictly necessary. It is clear that Unwieldy modifies the end result of your Initiative value without modifying the actual value itself.

 Charistoph wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:So in the context of my example, what you're saying 'can' happen (because, as you said, you're more concerned about what 'can' happen than what 'should') is that the Power Fist can strike at Initiative 10 because there's no order to the Modifiers? I still humbly disagree that in the context of the problem, the modifiers cannot applied at different times in the turn. But let's be honest: We could argue until the cows come home about this particular point and get nowhere.

You can argue till the cows come home, but without any actual rules to support your case... The simple fact is that Multiple Modifiers are not applied in order of application but by precedence. If it was by order of application, then Furious Charge could Modify a Set Value Modification. This is not the case, though. Furious Charge could not modify a Set Value Modification.

I can argue until the cows come home, but I won't not only because this argument is no longer relevant to the conversation, but more importantly: It was rendered irrelevant by the fact that Unwieldy isn't a Modifier. Plus it seems that both of us are too set in our thought processes to be convinced by the other. I will now consider this issue done unless you wish to PM me or start another thread.

 Charistoph wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:And the above assumes that Unwieldy is a Modifier. Cheexta is right. It isn't a Modifier. I'm happy Cheexta brought it up and I'm pretty sure I've never been so glad to wrong about a rule (because I obviously made the mistake of thinking it was a Modifier). The description for Unwieldy is exactly as follows:

Warhammer 40,000: The Rulebook wrote:A Model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

That is it word for word. So as sure as I am that you're wrong about the timing in this case, this does the job of saying that it should be at Initiative step 1 anyway. It describes the fact that it strikes at Initiative step 1 makes no mention of the unit's actual Initiative (modified or not) or any exceptions.

So when a model Piles In Fights in Initiative is not something to be modified? If that is the case then Unwieldy does nothing because it changes nothing.

As a number of other people have already said, it is not modifying anything, but instead giving the model bearing a weapon an instruction to fight at a certain time regardless of its Initiative value. So I agree with everyone else: The Unwieldy Special Rule takes precedence here, which means that the model(s) strike at Initiative Step 1.

And it doesn't change nothing, it does.

DeathReaper wrote:What Modifier? Unwieldy doe not modify the models I value...

I did not state it modifies the Initiative Characteristic, but it modifies the Initiative Step the model can act in the Fight Sub-Phase. By modifying the Initiative Characteristic you are also modifying the Initiative Step the model acts in the Fight Sub-Phase.

Cheexsta wrote:Your argument is that the only way it can do this is by modifying the Initiative. However, the rules do not back this up, and it's a false leap in logic to assume that this is the case.

Care to actually quote me actually stating this?

It's a false leap of logic to assume that just because I consider an Initiative Modifier to be a modifier for the Initiative Step, that the Initiative Modifier is the ONLY way to modify the Initiative Step.

Cheexsta wrote:As others have mentioned, there are other rules that affect an end result without modifying the base mechanic that normally defines it: Fleshbane doesn't modify the model's Strength, even though it changes the To Wound requirement; Khârn doesn't modify WS values, even though he always hits on a 2+; Fearless doesn't modify the Ld characteristic, even though it forces you to auto pass the relevant Ld tests.

You are right in that Unwieldy doesn't say "regardless of its Initiative value", but this is because it doesn't have to. It would be clearer if it did so, but it's not strictly necessary. It is clear that Unwieldy modifies the end result of your Initiative value without modifying the actual value itself.

I believe I stated Initiative Modifiers, which I explained earlier and above.

IllumiNini wrote:As a number of other people have already said, it is not modifying anything, but instead giving the model bearing a weapon an instruction to fight at a certain time regardless of its Initiative value. So I agree with everyone else: The Unwieldy Special Rule takes precedence here, which means that the model(s) strike at Initiative Step 1.

And it doesn't change nothing, it does.

If Unwieldy doesn't modify anything, then it doesn't work. It may not be a Characteristic Modifier, but it is still a modifier. It modifies the timing of an action.

 Charistoph wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What Modifier? Unwieldy doe not modify the models I value...

I did not state it modifies the Initiative Characteristic, but it modifies the Initiative Step the model can act in the Fight Sub-Phase. By modifying the Initiative Characteristic you are also modifying the Initiative Step the model acts in the Fight Sub-Phase.

But that of course does not matter, as only Characteristics are covered under the Multiple Modifiers rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic..." (Models and units Chapter, Multiple Modifiers section).

Therefore, since Unwieldy does not actually modify the I characteristic of the model, then Multiple Modifiers does not come into play.

Therefore you always strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon regardless of your actual I value.

Case closed.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But that of course does not matter, as only Characteristics are covered under the Multiple Modifiers rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic..." (Models and units Chapter, Multiple Modifiers section).

Therefore, since Unwieldy does not actually modify the I characteristic of the model, then Multiple Modifiers does not come into play.

Therefore you always strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon regardless of your actual I value.

Case closed.

So nothing actually covers it then if it is not a Characteristic, which makes it a pure House Rule territory instead of "case closed".

However, I do disagree that while it is not a main characteristic, it is a characteristic or attribute applied to the model which is base defined by Initiative.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
But that of course does not matter, as only Characteristics are covered under the Multiple Modifiers rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic..." (Models and units Chapter, Multiple Modifiers section).

Therefore, since Unwieldy does not actually modify the I characteristic of the model, then Multiple Modifiers does not come into play.

Therefore you always strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon regardless of your actual I value.

Case closed.

So nothing actually covers it then if it is not a Characteristic, which makes it a pure House Rule territory instead of "case closed".

However, I do disagree that while it is not a main characteristic, it is a characteristic or attribute applied to the model which is base defined by Initiative.

Why are you still trying to argue this? I mean, with all due respect, this has been solved.

As others have said, the Unwieldy Special Rule makes you strike at a certain time (in this case, a time defined as "Initiative Step 1") rather than actually Modifying the Initiative of the model. No Modifiers, no other fancy stuff: Unwieldy forces the model(s) to strike at Initiative Step 1 regardless of their actual Initiative and without modifying their Initiative. That means the Original Poster's question, which asks whether or not the unit/model(s) strike at Initiative 10 or Initiative 1 has been answered, and the answer is Initiative 1.

Case Closed. Done!

No, it sets the actions.

The models I characteristic is modified, the model acts at I step 1.

Just like a model with Hammer of wrath can also be under the effect of a -1 I modifier: the hammer of wrath attack will still always be at I step 10.

A modified I 10 will still always pile in and attack at I step 1. There are rules that cover this: the unweildy rule.

You really need to start reading whole rules because all of your "but then..." responses are either just plain covered in the rules, based on you assuming/equating the rules as saying something else entirely, or just plain nonsense.

If everyone could stop "declaring" the thread to be over again and again while still posting again and again that would be great. If you disagree with another user's point, either refute it and enter the eternal holding pattern between ideas we call the YMDC forum, or make your point and then go check out some other threads. Either way, stop just declaring it done.

 Charistoph wrote:

So nothing actually covers it then if it is not a Characteristic, which makes it a pure House Rule territory instead of "case closed".

Not at all. The wording of Unwieldy covers it just fine...

However, I do disagree that while it is not a main characteristic, it is a characteristic or attribute applied to the model which is base defined by Initiative.

What exactly is "a characteristic or attribute applied to the model which is base defined by Initiative."?

necronlad42 wrote:
Hello all,

So, I was recently looking at rules for the Grey knight land raider redeemer of forge world - and one of the rules is as follows
'when assaulting directly out of the land raider, a grey knights squad counts as having initiative 10 for the first round of an assault'
My question is - if you had a unit of terminators with the (unwieldy) hammers, would they count as I 10 or I 1?
Thanks

Seems to me that the special rule modifies the disembarking model's Initiative to be 10. Unwieldy basically says you make your pile in and attacks at I1 with no concern for what a models initiative actually is. Modifying a model's initiative doesn't change the fact that your forced to swing at I1 due to the unwieldy rule. Also unwieldy isn't actually modifying your initiative, it just specifies when you can make your attacks. So for that combat a squad of all hammers would make their pile ins and attacks at I1 but any initiative checks, sweeping advances, etc would test off the model's initiative which would be 10 due to that vehicle's special rule.

Now if the special rule for that vehicle said something like "Models that disembarked from this vehicle make their attacks at Initiative 10" then it would be a completely different story as both rules would be modifying when the attacks are made (and there would be no clear answer as it basically comes down to which rule takes precedent)

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
But that of course does not matter, as only Characteristics are covered under the Multiple Modifiers rules...

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic..." (Models and units Chapter, Multiple Modifiers section).

Therefore, since Unwieldy does not actually modify the I characteristic of the model, then Multiple Modifiers does not come into play.

Therefore you always strike at I1 with an unwieldy weapon regardless of your actual I value.

Case closed.

So nothing actually covers it then if it is not a Characteristic, which makes it a pure House Rule territory instead of "case closed".

However, I do disagree that while it is not a main characteristic, it is a characteristic or attribute applied to the model which is base defined by Initiative.

Firstly, the Initiative Step is not a Characteristic as defined by the rules. It is a "characteristic" in a general sense of the word, but not in the context of Multiple Modifiers.

Secondly, even if it were a Characteristic, Unwieldy is then modifying a different Characteristic to the Land Raider. The Land Raider is modifying the Initiative characteristic, while the Unwieldy rule is "modifying" the Initiative Step "characteristic".

I think it's a very deliberate wording to say that the model Piles In and fights at Initiative Step 1, rather than simply saying that the model counts as having Initiative 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:Care to actually quote me actually stating this?

It's a false leap of logic to assume that just because I consider an Initiative Modifier to be a modifier for the Initiative Step, that the Initiative Modifier is the ONLY way to modify the Initiative Step.

It's the impression I get from reading things like this:

Charistoph wrote:If you think that Unwieldy is not modifying the Initiative, then how can it force the change in Pile In and Initiative Step? In the Assault Phase that is all Initiative normally affects (yes, I know there are some weapons which do funky things with Initiative tests, that is why I am saying "normally").

Charistoph wrote:And it does not state "regardless of its actual Initiative" because in most cases, it does not need to. The Initiative Value is what normally determines this case. For all intents and purposes, both values are being modified when you modify the Initiative, Initiative for Characteristic Test and Pile In/Fight time.

Charistoph wrote:So when a model Piles In Fights in Initiative is not something to be modified? If that is the case then Unwieldy does nothing because it changes nothing.

Charistoph wrote:I am looking at it as the Initiative modifier also modifying the Fight Pile In and Fight Step as well as the Characteristic. Just as Furious Charge improves the To-Wound step as well as the Str Characterstic.

Looking at it again, this may have just been a case of misinterpretation - if that's true, I apologise.

It seems as though most posters on here have not bothered to pick up IA2-2nd; the Grey knights Vortimer pattern Redeemer does not even do what is being discussed here. Psyk-out assault launchers actually lower the I characteristic of psykers and daemons to 1.

The discussion is still relevent for wargear, psychic powers, or special rules that do raise a model's I value to 10; but in the OP's case, the Grey Knight Crusader(only found in the update) technically doesn't even have Frag assault launchers(just frag grenades, which are useless to the passengers and only add a weapon to be fired by the tank).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It seems as though most posters on here have not bothered to pick up IA2-2nd; the Grey knights Vortimer pattern Redeemer does not even do what is being discussed here. Psyk-out assault launchers actually lower the I characteristic of psykers and daemons to 1.

Are the rules in IA 2 2nd edition the most recent rules for it?

As far as I am aware, yes.

I will double check the IA apoc books, but 2-2nd has hull points whereas the update(which again has even less of a version of such rules) doesn't even have hull points.

Edit: doublechecked all IA apoc books; only the Redeemer appears in any of them other than the Update pdf, and IA2-2nd is the most current(IA-Apoc ii has it with the I 10 modifying psyk-out launchers but is so out of date that it refers you to codex daemonhunters for wargear descriptions).

So the most current psy-out assault launchers is in IA2-2nd.

The Grey Knights Redeemer isn't in the current Apocalypse book so I assume IA2 2nd is the most recent.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It seems as though most posters on here have not bothered to pick up IA2-2nd

I don't do FW for the very reason shown here in the last posts; can't be bothered.

But is there anything in any rules that would allow Unwieldy to act during any other Initiative step than 1? Can't think of anything.

MCs and Walkers.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
MCs and Walkers.

Besides those, as they are specified in the rule itself?

The closest situation available would be a model that has Hammer of wrath and charging through difficult terrain without assault grenades.

In this case you have the charge through terrain tells us that the unit strikes and piles in at I step 1, hammer of wrath grants an attack at I step 10.

Of course hammer of wrath being a special rule, it takes precedence; but it is a common enough situation with mcs and gmcs.