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Gamgee wrote: The Eternal Fleet ships lightspeed is slow compared to Star Wars ships its far from sufficient to surpass any 40k ship as outlined through his whole thread by everyone. Their sub-light speeds seem comparable to the ships of the day.
As to the shields not working we have no way to know. However given the insane firepower of the ships in question it's unlikely to be a large factor in 40k ships. In the Saga Edition RPG it is explained though that ballistic weapons are seen as weak and inferior if cheap to make weapons. It is implied that armor got too advanced for ballistic weaponry to stay effective. This is however soft evidence.
It's still shown in SWTOR that the Eternal fleet, like most starwars space battles happen at close range. Close enough for the main hero in TOR to ram his ship into them. 40k would love that close range engagements. And I still haven't seen this insane firepower the SW ships have.
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Gamgee wrote: The Eternal Fleet ships lightspeed is slow compared to Star Wars ships its far from sufficient to surpass any 40k ship as outlined through his whole thread by everyone. Their sub-light speeds seem comparable to the ships of the day.
As to the shields not working we have no way to know. However given the insane firepower of the ships in question it's unlikely to be a large factor in 40k ships. In the Saga Edition RPG it is explained though that ballistic weapons are seen as weak and inferior if cheap to make weapons. It is implied that armor got too advanced for ballistic weaponry to stay effective. This is however soft evidence.
It's still shown in SWTOR that the Eternal fleet, like most starwars space battles happen at close range. Close enough for the main hero in TOR to ram his ship into them. 40k would love that close range engagements. And I still haven't seen this insane firepower the SW ships have.
Here's the cinematic in question. The entire planet was destroyed in minutes as stated by the lore and it was one of the largest city planets of the time up their with Coruscant among others. You've put up an admiral debate but your arguments are spent.
Gamgee wrote: The Eternal Fleet ships lightspeed is slow compared to Star Wars ships its far from sufficient to surpass any 40k ship as outlined through his whole thread by everyone. Their sub-light speeds seem comparable to the ships of the day.
As to the shields not working we have no way to know. However given the insane firepower of the ships in question it's unlikely to be a large factor in 40k ships. In the Saga Edition RPG it is explained though that ballistic weapons are seen as weak and inferior if cheap to make weapons. It is implied that armor got too advanced for ballistic weaponry to stay effective. This is however soft evidence.
It's still shown in SWTOR that the Eternal fleet, like most starwars space battles happen at close range. Close enough for the main hero in TOR to ram his ship into them. 40k would love that close range engagements. And I still haven't seen this insane firepower the SW ships have.
Here's the cinematic in question. The entire planet was destroyed in minutes as stated by the lore and it was one of the largest city planets of the time up their with Coruscant among others. You've put up an admiral debate but your arguments are spent.
The firepower on a unshielded planet, imagine what Lance strikes would do.
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Gamgee wrote: The Eternal Fleet ships lightspeed is slow compared to Star Wars ships its far from sufficient to surpass any 40k ship as outlined through his whole thread by everyone. Their sub-light speeds seem comparable to the ships of the day.
As to the shields not working we have no way to know. However given the insane firepower of the ships in question it's unlikely to be a large factor in 40k ships. In the Saga Edition RPG it is explained though that ballistic weapons are seen as weak and inferior if cheap to make weapons. It is implied that armor got too advanced for ballistic weaponry to stay effective. This is however soft evidence.
It's still shown in SWTOR that the Eternal fleet, like most starwars space battles happen at close range. Close enough for the main hero in TOR to ram his ship into them. 40k would love that close range engagements. And I still haven't seen this insane firepower the SW ships have.
Here's the cinematic in question. The entire planet was destroyed in minutes as stated by the lore and it was one of the largest city planets of the time up their with Coruscant among others. You've put up an admiral debate but your arguments are spent.
The firepower on a unshielded planet, imagine what Lance strikes would do.
This seems like a rather generous assumption given fluff descriptions of 40k fleets taking hours or even days to prepare for battle. Which is fine because, in 40k, everyone spends lots of time floating around in normal space before getting into firing range. They simply don't have the ability to precisely jump to a destination and immediately start shooting.
A 40k ship drops out of the Warp a hell of a long way from the target world - so it's not an issue.
As noted, it's essentially incompatible hand-wave physics - it's the same reason (In reverse) why, whilst the guard generally get murdered on the ground, the Imperial Navy has a tendancy to kick the Tau sideways in naval wars - FTL comms, FTL-capable destroyer-sized escort craft to do recon, faster strategic speed.
All of this is true in reverse to an even greater extent with Star Wars - even fighters can do (short) interstellar hops to act as your recon element, FTL communication is pretty much instantaneous, clear and reliable, and as noted an interstellar jump - even allowing for 'calculation time' seems to take a few minutes and brings you out in near-orbit rather than at the edge of the system.
The problem with SW FTL drive is that it needs very detailed and up-to-date star charts to function. Or else in the words of Han Solo: "we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" And as seen from the fact that the Star Wars civilisation has yet to explore half of its own system, the capabilities of Star Wars ships to fly to an uncharted destination are minimal to non-existant.
Which is also true in 40k. They rely on known Warp Routes to travel from planet to planet, which is why, within the borders of the Imperium, there are massive Xeno empires that have never been contacted, or even seen, by Mankind. There are no known/stable Warp Routes between these alien worlds and their human-controlled neighbors.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
kinratha wrote: The firepower on a unshielded planet, imagine what Lance strikes would do.
Which lance strikes are you referring to? The kind that are used in ship to ship combat, or the kind that crack planets? The ones that are in the TT range, or the ones that are in the mid 10's GT range?
Regarding Star Wars Shields: They're likely to be fairly ineffective vs 40k. They are based off scattering beam weapons while the a portion of the shield stops projectiles. Given the ludicrous amounts of lead IoM ships crap out, they are likely to overwhelm shielding in short order, assuming that the projectile shield can't be bolstered by reducing power to the ray shield. The Falcon was able to survive what are likely "glancing" turbolaser hits because of this same scattering principle. Its shields scattering ability was completely depleted after just a few hits though, and this is with all the shielding pushed to either the front or the back. Turbolasers are used against capital ships for full effect, which is why vs. small ships, Tie Fighters usually do the heavy lifting.
Star Destroyers actually don't fire Turbolasers at smaller ships. They have point defense lasers/blasters for that. Which is what likely hit the Falcon.
No Star Wars capital does. They are too hard to hit with them. Why do you think the Death Star Trench run was so effective with small fighters? It even says they planned for a large scale fleet attack.
So this is why they needed to send out the Tie fighters.
in terms of SW Capital ship weapon scale we have Turbolasers > Blasters/Lasers > Point Defense weaponry. Falcon could also have been hit by a medium blaster which is theoretically survivable considering all the extra upgrades Han has put into the ship.
Edit
It's not a substitute for a debate, but it sure as hell is a funny supplement. Considering my opponents hit circular logic level of the debate I think its all but over. They're just going back and saying the exact same thing that started the debate. Then another person just swatted my points out of hand. 'Oh that Firepower is nothing' except its clearly been shown to be more than sufficient for planet destroying properties which would be more than applicable in 40k ship to ship combat. What points have any of them made? Nothing. I'm more or less just having some fun at this point.
They are now running the whole "Star Wars shields are ineffective argument". How do you know? They certainly seemed to be effective in reducing the effectiveness of asteroid impacts. Anyways right here it says they do have shields to stop high velocity projectiles. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield Although I didn't need that. Of course shields stop projectiles you guys. They stop the missiles and torpedoes we always see them firing in the movie. Common sense man. Until they get taken out that is. Also every Star Wars game in existence with space ships has shields that protect from missile hits. I submit that as secondary evidence.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 17:38:11
@Gamgee: I saw the same article re: Deflectors Shields. I'm just saying I'm not sure that SW shields are capable of stopping the sustained wall of low-tech lead that the IoM type ships are lobbing at them. Broadsides of 1000's of sub-light projectiles is so laughably low tech that I'm not sure that SW shields are meant to stop this many physical shots without being depleted.
IMHO, SW's advantage is in hit/run and they shouldn't really have to worry about getting hit to begin with. I feel it really is telling how my earlier post about 40k being at a huge disadvantage due to political reasons was completely ignored.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 17:59:19
Proton Torpedos get stopped and without shields a proton torpedo hit can do serious damage. So don't go thinking all they stop is asteroids.
There are many Starfighters carrying Proton Torpedos, Consussion Missiles, and other missile like weapons. X-Wings carry about 4-8 Proton Torpedos and just one can cause significant structural damage if it hits. These are powerful weapons and are used to destroy the Death Stars core.
The Star Wars ships firepower is so superior to 40k the 40k ships are in extreme danger of dying before any drop pods can be launched. A last ditch kamikaze teleportarium attack would work but lose momentum without reinforcing it since the ship launching it is dead. There will be no protracted battle for the 40k ships since they will be dying from the SW ships superior firepower.
The Star Wars ships have them out gunned and out maneuvered. So not only can they use overwhelming force but they can chase and harass them to death with hit and run. They might even possible outnumber them since the Star Wars universe will better able to response to attacks in force due to its greater FTL speeds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 18:09:56
Gamgee wrote: The Star Wars ships firepower is so superior to 40k the 40k ships are in extreme danger of dying before any drop pods can be launched. A last ditch kamikaze teleportarium attack would work but lose momentum without reinforcing it since the ship launching it is dead. There will be no protracted battle for the 40k ships since they will be dying from the SW ships superior firepower.
40k Superfans would fight you to the death with a red whippy stick on this one. The high end calcs for 40k's "observed" feats from the black library puts their firepower yields in the high Teraton to the low Petaton levels. Outside of superweapons, Star Wars is stuck in the 10's to low 100's Gigaton range per shot. I for one think the high end calcs for 40k are utter nonsense, but I would place their firepower at about on par with one another.
Honestly the only reason the IoM would win that fight is because of space marines and terminators. I would bet a squad of ten terminators could take out the death star from the inside.
Teleport in, do corridor fighting, exactly what they were designed to do, shrug of puny laser based weapons, plant melts charges or anti matter charges on the death star or what ever ships core, teleport out, boom!
Gg what ever ship they were on. Chat IoM lacks in ship to ship combat, they make up for drastically in blitzkrieg style attacks.
Backspacehacker wrote: Honestly the only reason the IoM would win that fight is because of space marines and terminators. I would bet a squad of ten terminators could take out the death star from the inside.
Teleport in, do corridor fighting, exactly what they were designed to do, shrug of puny laser based weapons, plant melts charges or anti matter charges on the death star or what ever ships core, teleport out, boom!
Gg what ever ship they were on. Chat IoM lacks in ship to ship combat, they make up for drastically in blitzkrieg style attacks.
Well, it's a good thing that power and terminator armor can shrug off the plasma pistols, guns and cannons that everyone is going to be firing at them.
Backspacehacker wrote: Honestly the only reason the IoM would win that fight is because of space marines and terminators. I would bet a squad of ten terminators could take out the death star from the inside.
Teleport in, do corridor fighting, exactly what they were designed to do, shrug of puny laser based weapons, plant melts charges or anti matter charges on the death star or what ever ships core, teleport out, boom!
Gg what ever ship they were on. Chat IoM lacks in ship to ship combat, they make up for drastically in blitzkrieg style attacks.
Well, it's a good thing that power and terminator armor can shrug off the plasma pistols, guns and cannons that everyone is going to be firing at them.
Are plasma weapons even canon in SW any more? Because I'm assumeing we are using canon Star Wars.
If we are assuming its SW during the height of the empire then we would also need to have them fighting the IoM at its height which would be pre HH so they will also need to fight full strengthed legions with primarchs and the Big E
Why would you have them fight IoM at its height... Just have them fight a three pronged war where the Tyranids, Necrons and the IoM are invading their space and every infantry is a warp powered psyker equipped with void shields and twin linked blackstone fortresses.
keezus wrote: Why would you have them fight IoM at its height... Just have them fight a three pronged war where the Tyranids, Necrons and the IoM are invading their space and every infantry is a warp powered psyker equipped with void shields and twin linked blackstone fortresses.
Because if the empire is going to go back in time the IoM would as well.
We don't need the snarky comments, they are in warranted.
Edit
It's not a substitute for a debate, but it sure as hell is a funny supplement. Considering my opponents hit circular logic level of the debate I think its all but over. They're just going back and saying the exact same thing that started the debate. Then another person just swatted my points out of hand. 'Oh that Firepower is nothing' except its clearly been shown to be more than sufficient for planet destroying properties which would be more than applicable in 40k ship to ship combat. What points have any of them made? Nothing. I'm more or less just having some fun at this point.
They are now running the whole "Star Wars shields are ineffective argument". How do you know? They certainly seemed to be effective in reducing the effectiveness of asteroid impacts. Anyways right here it says they do have shields to stop high velocity projectiles. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield Although I didn't need that. Of course shields stop projectiles you guys. They stop the missiles and torpedoes we always see them firing in the movie. Common sense man. Until they get taken out that is. Also every Star Wars game in existence with space ships has shields that protect from missile hits. I submit that as secondary evidence.
You never beat my argument, that why I keep saying the same things, all you said was my lasers are so strong that they can glass a planet in a minute. Show me evidence of your superior firepower, that I haven't already proven you wrong on.
guess this video shows that 40k can kill a planet in a minute also.... plus watch the video at 0:51 you can see the impact of a lance strike. Much more power full then a barrage of lasers.
roton Torpedos get stopped and without shields a proton torpedo hit can do serious damage. So don't go thinking all they stop is asteroids.
There are multiple games and books that show and state torpedoes going though shields with little resistance. Hell, the empire even build missile scrambling technology into there smaller support ships because torpedoes pose such a threat.
Post 2016/04/22 18:08:29 Subject: Star wars or 40k Proton Torpedos get stopped and without shields a proton torpedo hit can do serious damage. So don't go thinking all they stop is asteroids.
There are many Starfighters carrying Proton Torpedos, Consussion Missiles, and other missile like weapons. X-Wings carry about 4-8 Proton Torpedos and just one can cause significant structural damage if it hits. These are powerful weapons and are used to destroy the Death Stars core.
The Star Wars ships firepower is so superior to 40k the 40k ships are in extreme danger of dying before any drop pods can be launched. A last ditch kamikaze teleportarium attack would work but lose momentum without reinforcing it since the ship launching it is dead. There will be no protracted battle for the 40k ships since they will be dying from the SW ships superior firepower.
You still need to prove it, repeating it over and over does not make it true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/23 00:26:56
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keezus wrote: Why would you have them fight IoM at its height... Just have them fight a three pronged war where the Tyranids, Necrons and the IoM are invading their space and every infantry is a warp powered psyker equipped with void shields and twin linked blackstone fortresses.
Because if the empire is going to go back in time the IoM would as well.
We don't need the snarky comments, they are in warranted.
Oh... I hadn't realized that snark was expressly disallowed. Pity, as snark is my best attribute.
If going back in time is totally kosher, why don't you go back before the Dark Age of Technology. Curbstomp then, amirite? Or he Old ones vs the Necrontyr at the height of their empires... Blackstone Fortress in every garage. Double curbstomp amirite? Why stop at height of IoM... its hardly the best the setting can offer... heck, even the Eldar before the fall makes the IoM's pinnacle seem pathetic in comparison.
Heck... Why not all the above, and all at once? The topic is Star Wars vs 40k... and 40k covers the whole lore right? If Star Wars can talk about the Eternal Empire, and KOTOR, no reason not to bring in the old guns along side the new guns!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/04/23 02:58:05
Okay so they have equal firepower as the ancient KotoR ships from 4000 years ago. In TOR the ships are even more powerful and the silencer weapon that is developed one shots ships sometimes multiple ones at once.
In only a few years the silencer entered large scale production and was being used in as much fleets as possible in the Sith Fleet.
Then by the time of the Eternal Fleet a mere five years later weapons and defenses have progressed further since even the Silencer is said to have problems attacking them. It was even having trouble against experimental Republic shield technology.
This trend shows a clear progression of existing technology. By the time of the original trilogy it's said a single Star Destroyer can easily destroy the surface of a planet and render it uninhabitable. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero & http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero/Legends The Star Destroyer is not called a Star Destroyer because it bakes cookies for wookies. It's a Star Destroyer because it DESTROYS planets if need be. Okay it can't blow one up but destroyed in all other ways than being blown up. It's in the name. As few as three Star Destroyers can do it to a planet in a few hours. Certainly seems like a progression to me. From needing an entire fleet 4000k years ago to only three ships. And I proved the power of the ships 4000k years ago is equal to the 40k ships and that the new ships are stronger it is good game Imperium. The planets they BDZ'ed also contained shielding and other defenses and had a more advanced infrastructure. So harder targets much harder.
A detailed wookiee article here clearly states some shields can stop missiles and capital ships were often equipped with both types while fighters had to make do with one type. So yes most capital ships are going to resist fire from both types.
And I proved the power of the ships 4000k years ago is equal to the 40k ships
At what point did you prove this? Again saying it doesn't make it true.
This trend shows a clear progression of existing technology. By the time of the original trilogy it's said a single Star Destroyer can easily destroy the surface of a planet and render it uninhabitable. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero & http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero/Legends The Star Destroyer is not called a Star Destroyer because it bakes cookies for wookies. It's a Star Destroyer because it DESTROYS planets if need be. Okay it can't blow one up but destroyed in all other ways than being blown up. It's in the name. As few as three Star Destroyers can do it to a planet in a few hours. Certainly seems like a progression to me. From needing an entire fleet 4000k years ago to only three ships. And I proved the power of the ships 4000k years ago is equal to the 40k ships and that the new ships are stronger it is good game Imperium. The planets they BDZ'ed also contained shielding and other defenses and had a more advanced infrastructure. So harder targets much harder.
Well, 40K and Star Wars both have some really dumb fluff.
I mean, 10 Space Marines can take over a planet.... so yeah.
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commander dante wrote: I prefer the "Halo vs 40k" Argument
Its funny to watch Fanboys defend Halo withot knowing anything about 40k
Depends on the argument. Forerunners would beat the crap put of both sides discussed on this thread, but current factions like the UNSC and the Covenant are unbelievably outnumbered by the IoM.
Gamgee wrote: I rest my case until new evidence is presented. It's been fun Kin.
I'll give it up to you. Honestly I'm a huge fan of the Kotor part of starwars. being some of my childhood was playing kotor 1 & 2. But I still feel IoM's got it. either way, this is a good time to end this debate. It's been fun.
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40k wins because in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war, every faction has super weapons of mass destruction, and everyone knows only how to wage war. Also it depends on which era of star wars, The Empire would lose to 40k because they have similar logistical issues like The Imperium, also Storm Troopers are about as equal to Guardsmen, so no problem there. The republic would be a bit more difficult but would still lose because they're pansies that can't commit planetary genocide to save the galaxy. But Clone Troopers would be a bit more like the elite Militarum Tempestus Scions.
I just realized why 40k will always win. We have something the SW universe will never be able to match.
A weapon so powerful none can stand it's might, countless armies have fallen under their hammers. It has ravaged world, protected billions, slated countless more. There are many names to this legendary weapon, but one stand out above all....
So, Just curious, if the shields of a star destroyer can stop projectile weapons, why can fighters and other small ships buzz threw those same shields all day? just curious if there is even a reason for that? Or if they actually DON'T stop projectiles, and are only designed to stop energy weapons? .
Dyslexican32 wrote: So, Just curious, if the shields of a star destroyer can stop projectile weapons, why can fighters and other small ships buzz threw those same shields all day? just curious if there is even a reason for that? Or if they actually DON'T stop projectiles, and are only designed to stop energy weapons? .
Also every Star Wars game in existence with space ships has shields that protect from missile hits. I submit that as secondary evidence.
