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 feeder wrote:


I think the problem here is that being trans is not an "issue" for you to agree with or not.

That is not what we're discussing at all. Being Trans is not THE issue. It's whether a person with a penis should be allowed to use the Women's bathroom. Penises use the Men's bathroom. THAT'S the issue.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I guess it comes down to whether the "men's" and "women's" signs are supposed to suggest sex or gender. We need footnotes on our signs. Frankly, the sex vs. gender issue is largely unimportant in the bigger scheme of what is wrong with public restrooms: hygiene. Where are the laws that forbid people to leave the room without washing? Or laws that state: if you sprinkle when you tinkle, be a sweetie and wipe the seatie? That needs codification.

Hear, hear. I'm one step away from publicly berating the next stranger I see leaving the can without washing hands with soap and water.

Since separate washrooms is a social construct and gender is a social construct, I suggest the sign is to denote gender.

So the issue could be solved with a simple sign change: penises or vaginas. Why didn't those lawmakers think of this? Silly penises.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So the issue could be solved with a simple sign change: penises or vaginas. Why didn't those lawmakers think of this? Silly penises.

LMAO, I've said this a million times!! And it's shot down every time!!

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 feeder wrote:


I think the problem here is that being trans is not an "issue" for you to agree with or not.

That is not what we're discussing at all. Being Trans is not THE issue. It's whether a person with a penis should be allowed to use the Women's bathroom. Penises use the Men's bathroom. THAT'S the issue.

Ok, fair enough.

Why is that the issue for you?

I've been using the men's room my entire life, and I've never seen a penis other than my own.

I just don't understand. Why what is literally the only obvious indicator of sex (the genitals) has to be the "correct" one for you, when all the others (hair, attire, mannerisms) do not.

 feeder wrote:
Hear, hear. I'm one step away from publicly berating the next stranger I see leaving the can without washing hands with soap and water.

Since separate washrooms is a social construct and gender is a social construct, I suggest the sign is to denote gender.

I don't think you even have to go into that. Unless you're going to establish a "groin check point" at the entrance of every bathroom, there's really no way to know if someone is transgender or not unless we stoop to absolutely ridiculous levels of profiling that are bound to be wrong. "Use the bathroom of your identified gender" is simply the most pragmatic solution at the moment.

To repeat a joke I made in another thread on this;

Clearly what we need is a new government agency; BSA. The Bathroom Safety Administration. Before entering a bathroom, you will be required to walk through a full body scanner that will check your junk (and anything else you might have) to ensure that you're not a threat to others. This government body will be mandated to hire only unpleasant, bitter, and angry human beings who will revel in their new found power to feth with everyone desperately trying to get to the Restroom. When criticized, they will simply reply "you must want to transgenders to win!" and thus no one will do anything to fix their ineffective system which regularly fails inspections and random testing, all of which independently suggests that the BSA does very little to ensure bathroom security or stop transgenders from threatening our freedom.

 feeder wrote:
and I've never seen a penis other than my own.

Then you aren't trying hard enough. Get out there and live life! *shoves feeder out the door*

Mdlbuildr wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:


My only personal exception to that stance would be K-12 public schools. In those instances I think additional gender neutral bathrooms make sense. I don't think it's a good idea to force children to make a definitive choice about gender when they're young and the medical community supports that so third bathrooms make sense instead of forcing difficult situations on children.

Which happened in a High School in the USA, were a Transgender Female insisted on using the Female Locker Room to change. He was offered a gender neutral place to change and shower and refused. It caused a national uproar. Sorry, but no.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/living/missouri-transgender-teen-feat/

That was in my back yard.

Because the other girls *should* have a say, the best outcome is to provide trans students access to the gender-neutral single occupant bathrooms (in this case, the teacher's bathroom). Or better yet, request fundings to remodel/rebuild the locker/bath rooms so that they're all single stalls.

In Schilling's case... whether you like it or not, he was an ESPN employee. ESPN, as a business, has every right to NOT be associated to Schilling if he does something contrary to ESPN's belief. So, unless ESPN has some contractural obligation to Schillings, ESPN is free to terminate his contract.

Yay for Businesses expressing their beliefs w/o governmental reprisal!

Yay for freedom!

 feeder wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I guess it comes down to whether the "men's" and "women's" signs are supposed to suggest sex or gender. We need footnotes on our signs. Frankly, the sex vs. gender issue is largely unimportant in the bigger scheme of what is wrong with public restrooms: hygiene. Where are the laws that forbid people to leave the room without washing? Or laws that state: if you sprinkle when you tinkle, be a sweetie and wipe the seatie? That needs codification.

Hear, hear. I'm one step away from publicly berating the next stranger I see leaving the can without washing hands with soap and water.

Since separate washrooms is a social construct and gender is a social construct, I suggest the sign is to denote gender.

It is, and has been since forever, but we can change it. Here at dakka we can change it. Let it denote sex. Problem solved. It would actually make more sense. When I go to the car fix it place, I don't park in the transmission fixing line when I need to get my oil changed. When I go to Walmart, I don't go to the returns line to buy my provalactics. On second thought, maybe we have it all wrong. Maybe we should have a bathroom for just standing up (only urinals-"put used Bud here") or sitting down (only stalls-"put used Taco Johns here"). That way the lines for most of my public excrement business will get much shorter. I am so smrt. <we need a dancing ork on these darned forums>

 feeder wrote:


Ok, fair enough.

Why is that the issue for you?

I've been using the men's room my entire life, and I've never seen a penis other than my own.

I just don't understand. Why what is literally the only obvious indicator of sex (the genitals) has to be the "correct" one for you, when all the others (hair, attire, mannerisms) do not.

To be fair, it's not just an issue for "me". It is an issue for probably the majority of the population or we would not be having this discussion.

I posted an article about a man pretending to be transgender to get into a women's shelter and was abusing the women at the shelter. As much as everyone doesn't want to see the potential for this, it is possible.

Let me say this. If ALL bathrooms were gender neutral, I would have zero problem with that. ZERO.

The problem I have is that a Transgender Female refuses to use the Men's Bathroom AND the Gender Neutral Bathroom. They insist on only using the Women's bathroom. Why? What's the big deal with using the "Family Bathroom" or designated Gender Neutral Bathroom?

I don't want my 12 year old daughter in the bathroom alone with an adult male in a mall. If you can't understand why, I'm very sorry. Can this happen with a Gender Neutral bathroom? Nope. I could go in there as well, and be a look out. Yes, I would do that to assure my child's safety.

Prestor Jon wrote:

It's more about where you wear it than it being significantly different than other clothing like bathing suits. If somebody is wearing a thong on a public beach its different than wearing one in a parade down mainstreet. If you go to the beach you expect to see bathing suits and less clothing, if you're working or shopping downtown you don't expect to see it and have a more difficult time avoiding it or justifying it.

My counter arguments to that are yoga pants, volleyball shorts, biking shorts, rugby shorts, running shorts, mini skirts, kilts, Under Armour, Dri-FIT, American football pants, sliders, baseball pants...I can go on at length about how the American public is not only consistently exposed to titillating things, likes it, and won't admit it.

 whembly wrote:


Because the other girls *should* have a say, the best outcome is to provide trans students access to the gender-neutral single occupant bathrooms (in this case, the teacher's bathroom).

Absolutely agree! However, this Transgender student refused that accommodation. Why?

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 whembly wrote:


Because the other girls *should* have a say, the best outcome is to provide trans students access to the gender-neutral single occupant bathrooms (in this case, the teacher's bathroom).

Absolutely agree! However, this Transgender student refused that accommodation. Why?

Same reason why African Americans rejected the accommodation of separate drinking fountains? Why take a child which it is no business of anyone else due to HIPAA protections and isolate them and single them out to placate people afraid of a fictional boogeyman with laws which make *NO ONE* safer?

I love how you think my friend from HS should be forced to use the female bathroom when he was genetically male and had PAIS simply because you invalidate his existence due to 'junk check'. He was genetically male and recognized by the government and his doctors as male and physically developed male and during his time in the womb he developed a mostly developed vagina instead of a penis. He is a male but you say he needs to use the women's bathroom because your medical degree says 'junk check' is all that matters.

I guess you don't mind adult men in the bathroom with your 12-year old daughter as long as they don't have a penis to rape her? How very 'medical field' of you.

 dogma wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

It's more about where you wear it than it being significantly different than other clothing like bathing suits. If somebody is wearing a thong on a public beach its different than wearing one in a parade down mainstreet. If you go to the beach you expect to see bathing suits and less clothing, if you're working or shopping downtown you don't expect to see it and have a more difficult time avoiding it or justifying it.

My counter arguments to that are yoga pants, volleyball shorts, biking shorts, rugby shorts, running shorts, mini skirts, kilts, Under Armour, Dri-FIT, American football pants, sliders, baseball pants...I can go on at length about how the American public is not only consistently exposed to titillating things, likes it, and won't admit it.

It is the irony of America. We want titilation and the freedom to feel guilt. We want individualism and homegenity. We want salads and burgers. We want a party to be economically conservative and socially liberal. We want the end to abortions because life matters and the death penalty because screw them (or vice versa). We want....wait a minute. You think baseball pants are attractive? What weird twisted universe do you live in that establishes baseball pants as attractive? You are sick. I like you. I'm an American.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:


I have seen people fired for expressing personal thoughts and experiences on their FB accounts.

One worker has an anaphylactic reaction to bleach...the contact and even smell of it could potentially kill her. People are aware of this. Work was aware of this.

At work, someone in her area cleaned with bleach and she had to go to use her epi-pen.

On her FB account she ranted about what happened..without saying "my employer" or "my co workers" or any really identifying information. Granted...it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that this happened at work.

She was fired because of that post.

I perceive this differently than the Schilling incident.

She was complaining about an incident actually at work and about her work place. I can see how that could cause problems.

Schilling was giving a personal opinion about nothing to do with his job, his job description or about his workplace at all.

To me, there is a difference.

Aren't there any lavatories at ESPN?

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 feeder wrote:


Ok, fair enough.

Why is that the issue for you?

I've been using the men's room my entire life, and I've never seen a penis other than my own.

I just don't understand. Why what is literally the only obvious indicator of sex (the genitals) has to be the "correct" one for you, when all the others (hair, attire, mannerisms) do not.

To be fair, it's not just an issue for "me". It is an issue for probably the majority of the population or we would not be having this discussion.

I posted an article about a man pretending to be transgender to get into a women's shelter and was abusing the women at the shelter. As much as everyone doesn't want to see the potential for this, it is possible.

Let me say this. If ALL bathrooms were gender neutral, I would have zero problem with that. ZERO.

The problem I have is that a Transgender Female refuses to use the Men's Bathroom AND the Gender Neutral Bathroom. They insist on only using the Women's bathroom. Why? What's the big deal with using the "Family Bathroom" or designated Gender Neutral Bathroom?

I don't want my 12 year old daughter in the bathroom alone with an adult male in a mall. If you can't understand why, I'm very sorry. Can this happen with a Gender Neutral bathroom? Nope. I could go in there as well, and be a look out. Yes, I would do that to assure my child's safety.

I find it funny you keep singling out men in a women's restroom, but not women assaulting men in a men's restroom. How very forward thinking of you

nkelsch wrote:


Same reason why African Americans rejected the accommodation of separate drinking fountains? Why take a child which it is no business of anyone else due to HIPAA protections and isolate them and single them out to placate people afraid of a fictional boogeyman with laws which make *NO ONE* safer?

I love how you think my friend from HS should be forced to use the female bathroom when he was genetically male and had PAIS simply because you invalidate his existence due to 'junk check'. He was genetically male and recognized by the government and his doctors as male and physically developed male and during his time in the womb he developed a mostly developed vagina instead of a penis. He is a male but you say he needs to use the women's bathroom because your medical degree says 'junk check' is all that matters.

I guess you don't mind adult men in the bathroom with your 12-year old daughter as long as they don't have a penis to rape her? How very 'medical field' of you.

Whoa. Straw man much? You are seriously comparing segregation of drinking fountains between Blacks and Whites with Transgenders using bathrooms? Was there violence against whites or blacks at drinking fountains? I can't fathom the parallel you're trying to make.

There are exceptions to every rule. Again, Straw Man. Your argument about your "friend" isn't the one I'm making. Making the exception the rule is the problem.

Please dispense of the stabs at me personally. Rule #1. Thanks.

Aren't there any lavatories at ESPN?

EDIT: dakka is being weird...

 jreilly89 wrote:


I find it funny you keep singling out men in a women's restroom, but not women assaulting men in a men's restroom. How very forward thinking of you

Aren't the majority of sexual predators male? I think they are based on my readings. If you know differently, I'd love to hear it.

Oh and please dispense with the personal attacks. Rule #1, remember?

Are there or are there not any lavatories at ESPN?

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

ESPN is a private company and should be able to hire and fire how they see fit. It is also known they are a bastion of liberal progressive ideology. Schilling can't be too surprised.

I think it's sad that the SJWs only seem to fight for one side. The dominate trend is for these 'tolerant and inclusive' businesses and organizations to only tolerate those that agree with them. Which is exactly the opposite of tolerance.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Are there or are there not any lavatories at ESPN?

The penises and vaginas have to go across the street.

Then clearly it isn't a workplace issue and Schilling should be reinstated at once.

I guess you don't mind adult men in the bathroom with your 12-year old daughter as long as they don't have a penis to rape her? How very 'medical field' of you.

As a father, trying to figure out what I am supposed to be worried about here.

1. In a school they have rules against adults outside of staff being in the school to begin with.
2. Whats the difference between a T and your generic ugly grandmother? If this person is trying to peep there are laws against that and nothing keeping her from macing the SOB. If I understand correctly, T's are just like everyone else in the restroom, just hairier. Have you seen a Slavic grandmother? We're freaking bearded dwarves.
3. Spoke to the Genghis Connie about the subject. Her crew is completely unconcerned about this, but real "creepers." This is not an issue for them at all.
4. You owe me money as she confiscated a Tubman as a fee for the conversation.

Mdlbuildr wrote:
No, sir. People use the bathroom based on their equipment. Women use the Ladies bathroom because they have a Vagina. Men use the Men's bathroom because they have a Penis.

Why?


Serious question.

Ask a male child why they go to the Men's bathroom. They won't say "because I feel like a man". They will say because they have a penis.

Because that's what they've been taught by their parents. The real reason that they go to the Men's bathroom is that their parents insist that they go to the Men's bathroom.

I've taken my daughter into a Men's room when we've been out without her mum and there's been no Parent's room available... And oddly enough, the world hasn't ended. She doesn't care which bathroom she goes into, so long as she gets to go with one of us. The 'need' to use the 'right' bathroom is a trained behaviour, not an immutable law of the universe.

Doesn't Rule #1 say something about no personal attacks?

I think I read that somewhere on these forums...

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


I find it funny you keep singling out men in a women's restroom, but not women assaulting men in a men's restroom. How very forward thinking of you

Aren't the majority of sexual predators male? I think they are based on my readings. If you know differently, I'd love to hear it.

Oh and please dispense with the personal attacks. Rule #1, remember?

Finding accurate statistics was difficult, so YMMV, but it looks like at least 25% of all sexual assaults are by women, so enough to be a concern if you're going to be so concerned about trans people abusing the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_child_molesters

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/02/20/too-many-restrictions-on-sex-offenders-or-too-few/female-sex-offenders-are-often-overlooked

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/oct/04/uk-female-child-sex-offenders

https://www.nsopw.gov/en-US/Education/FactsStatistics?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Also, you keep repeating Rule #1, when I've seen maybe one or two personal attacks. The yellow triangle button exists for a reason.

 insaniak wrote:

Because that's what they've been taught by their parents. The real reason that they go to the Men's bathroom is that their parents insist that they go to the Men's bathroom.

I've taken my daughter into a Men's room when we've been out without her mum and there's been no Parent's room available... And oddly enough, the world hasn't ended. She doesn't care which bathroom she goes into, so long as she gets to go with one of us. The 'need' to use the 'right' bathroom is a trained behaviour, not an immutable law of the universe.

My kids learned to go to the bathroom at home where the bathrooms are gender neutral.

When my children were very young, I also took my daughters to the Men's bathroom and my wife has taken our son to the Women's bathroom.

At a certain age they told us they would rather go to the bathroom corresponding with their anatomy and on their own. This had nothing to do with my "teaching" them this. It was their request.

Eventually your daughter will care. Wait until she's about 6-8 years old.