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This thread is basically a response to comments in the Simple Balance for Codex: Eldar.

In that thread, various recommendations were made for nerfs/points adjustments. I would like to enumerate what I think are basically fair nerfs for Codex: Space Marines.

1. A full battle company should only confer free rhinos.

2. Command squads should not be able to purchase a dedicated transport if they elect to travel on bikes.

3. Scout bikes should cost 21 ppm.

4. Space Marine bikers should cost 24 ppm.

5. The librarians should not be able to not use powers which reroll saves or cause teleportation.

6. Devastator Centurions should cost 70 ppm.

7. Grav-guns should be rapidfire weapons with 24 inch range.

8. Grav cannons should be renamed "Heavy Grav Guns," and they should be 36" range, heavy 3. In compensation for this, a heavy grav gun only costs 20 ppm. A grav amp may be taken for an additional 10 ppm.

9. Drop pods should cost 45 ppm.

10. Storm shields should cost 15 ppm as an upgrade.

11: A buff, not a nerf, but one that's sorely needed: Flakk missiles should cost 5 ppm as an upgrade to missile launchers, not 10 ppm.

12. Sternguard veterans shall cost 24 ppm.

13. Assault centurions shall cost 70 ppm.

14. Honor guard shall cost 27 ppm.

15. Terminators go back to costing 40 ppm.

16. Shield eternal costs 60 ppm.

Boom. Codex fixed.

This message was edited 35 times. Last update was at 2016/04/24 23:17:51


 
   
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I say leave the razorbacks off the free list entirely, and make it "5 models for a Rhino, 10 for a drop pod." Then Make inertial guidance only reduce scatter if the pod would hit terrain (something a guidance system would actually account for) and I'd say most of the stuff is fine. Oh, and give Templars a Detachment, because it's dumb that they don't have one.

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 Swampmist wrote:
I say leave the razorbacks off the free list entirely, and make it "5 models for a Rhino, 10 for a drop pod." Then Make inertial guidance only reduce scatter if the pod would hit terrain (something a guidance system would actually account for) and I'd say most of the stuff is fine. Oh, and give Templars a Detachment, because it's dumb that they don't have one.


It's a points equivalence thing. According to the codex, rhino = drop pod. Razorback is somewhat worse than 2 rhinos.

To justify your "nerf," you'd have to make drop pods cost more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:26:23


 
   
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california

Don't agree with some of this. A drop pod that lands on impassible terrain should be considered a loss, for instance.
No free Razorbacks. To easy to spam. No free pods either. Only rhinos and only with 10 man units.
Grav gun should be 5 points more
26 ppm on the bikes.
Centurions should still be t4 but with a 6+ invul

Simply because you think your answers are the best does not mean "boom codex fixed"
You hardly nerfed it at all.

Also drop pods 10 points more

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:30:53


 
   
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Don't agree with some of this. A drop pod that lands on impassible terrain should be considered a loss, for instance.
No free Razorbacks. To easy to spam. No free pods either. Only rhinos and only with 10 man units.
Grav gun should be 5 points more
26 ppm on the bikes.
Centurions should still be t4 but with a 6+ invul

Simply because you think your answers are the best does not mean "boom codex fixed"
You hardly nerfed it at all.

Also drop pods 10 points more


1. If 10 man squads were a requirement for razorbacks, the minimum investment to spam those razorbacks would be the ten 10 man squads in the battle company (with just bolters; no upgrades) (1400 points), the captain (90 points) with no upgrades and a chaplain with no upgrades (90 points)...and let's say 3 units of scouts (165 points). 1400 + 90 = 1490. 1490 + 90 = 1580. 1580 + 165 = 1745. 1745 points of completely bare bone squads for 10 razorbacks.

You couldn't even add lascannons to the devastator squads in an 1850 game.

I think that this is entirely fair, of course, and it would prevent razorback spam.

2. My thinking on the bikes is the same as the eldar jetbikes. For eldar jetbikes, I just added 10 to the points value of of dire avengers (with the additional 10% increase to the dire avenger's cost, of course). For scout and space marine bikes, I just added 10 points to the value of scouts and tactical marines. Do you think bikes are worth more than that as an upgrade?

3. If grav guns are rapidfire weapons, 15 points would make them exactly points equal to plasma guns. I think that's basically fair. The lowering of their RoF, combined with their situational nature, would make them roughly equivalent in terms of utility to plasma guns.

4. What's the reasoning behind the centurion thing?

5. I agree about increasing points costs for the drop pods.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:44:43


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
 Swampmist wrote:
I say leave the razorbacks off the free list entirely, and make it "5 models for a Rhino, 10 for a drop pod." Then Make inertial guidance only reduce scatter if the pod would hit terrain (something a guidance system would actually account for) and I'd say most of the stuff is fine. Oh, and give Templars a Detachment, because it's dumb that they don't have one.


It's a points equivalence thing. According to the codex, rhino = drop pod. Razorback is somewhat worse than 2 rhinos.

To justify your "nerf," you'd have to make drop pods cost more.



I realize the points cost argument, but the simple fact is that a Drop Pod is very much more useful than a Rhino for it's cost. Also, letting only 10-man squads take a transport with only 6 Carrying Capacity feels unintuitive, to say the least. and, honestly, I don't think Drop Pods would be terrible at 45-50 points, simply by virtue of how good thay make the marine alpha strike and how much they invalidate Assault Marines and terminators in their role as "behind-enemy-lines" specialists.

Edit: Pain, would you mind explaining your changes? Because personally, they seem INCREDIBLY harsh, and I'd like to hear your reasoning. Traditio's too, I suppose, but his are pretty much in-line with what I think is op in the codex, though hearing his reasons would probably still

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:42:59


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Traditio wrote:
1. ... A full 10 man squad is needed to field a free razorback....

9. The "Intertial Guidance System" for the drop pod should be rewritten to say "keep rerolling the scatter dice until you legally can land and deploy."

10. The shield eternal should be 90 ppm.



I have issue with these three points.

That part of Point (1) makes no sense to me because A Razorback has a Transport Capacity of 6. So what that is essentially saying to me is "Have a free transport/support vehicle that the squad can't utilise properly".

Point (9) completely disallows for Deep Strike Mishaps and also guarantees the Drop Pod will arrive on the turn it passes its Reserve Roll (or 1st Turn)., which is not right at all.

Point (10) is just a wild over-pricing of the item. Think about it: If it costs 90 points, then you could either get a baseline Captain (or a Baseline Librarian with ML2), or you could give an eligible model a Shield Eternal for the same amount of points, which is stupid. A Storm Shield that confers Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior is not worth anywhere near 90 points.



Traditio wrote:
Boom. Codex fixed.


Not arguing that the codex needs fixing, but these changes definitely have not fixed the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what are your reasons for these changes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:45:13


 
   
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 IllumiNini wrote:
Traditio wrote:
1. ... A full 10 man squad is needed to field a free razorback....

9. The "Intertial Guidance System" for the drop pod should be rewritten to say "keep rerolling the scatter dice until you legally can land and deploy."

10. The shield eternal should be 90 ppm.



I have issue with these three points.

That part of Point (1) makes no sense to me because A Razorback has a Transport Capacity of 6. So what that is essentially saying to me is "Have a free transport/support vehicle that the squad can't utilise properly".

Point (9) completely disallows for Deep Strike Mishaps and also guarantees the Drop Pod will arrive on the turn it passes its Reserve Roll (or 1st Turn)., which is not right at all.

Point (10) is just a wild over-pricing of the item. Think about it: If it costs 90 points, then you could either get a baseline Captain (or a Baseline Librarian with ML2), or you could give an eligible model a Shield Eternal for the same amount of points, which is stupid. A Storm Shield that confers Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior is not worth anywhere near 90 points.



Traditio wrote:
Boom. Codex fixed.


Not arguing that the codex needs fixing, but these changes definitely have not fixed the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what are your reasons for these changes?


I would say the Shield, along with every Storm shield, SHOULD be more expensive, if only because 3++ saves being that ubiquitous and cheap can very quickly become abusive. That, and Smashfether exists, and this WOULD be a way to nerf him without nerfing the individual Chapters, which does not seem to be the point of this update.

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IllumiNini wrote: have issue with these three points.

That part of Point (1) makes no sense to me because A Razorback has a Transport Capacity of 6. So what that is essentially saying to me is "Have a free transport/support vehicle that the squad can't utilise properly".


1. Ruleswise, it's a points consideration. Razorbacks are 55 ppm. Given the choice between getting a free 35 ppm model and a free 55 ppm, of course you're going to go for the 55 ppm model if it's free.

2. Fluffwise? It's not completely unreasonable. In a traditional space marines tactical squad, you have 10 men. That includes a sergeant, a heavy weapons guy and a special weapons guy. Combat squad. Put the special weapons guy in the razorback. Heavy weapons squad hangs back and provides cover fire.

Point (9) completely disallows for Deep Strike Mishaps and also guarantees the Drop Pod will arrive on the turn it passes its Reserve Roll (or 1st Turn)., which is not right at all.


That did not occur to me. I'll edit the OP.

Point (10) is just a wild over-pricing of the item. Think about it: If it costs 90 points, then you could either get a baseline Captain (or a Baseline Librarian with ML2), or you could give an eligible model a Shield Eternal for the same amount of points, which is stupid. A Storm Shield that confers Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior is not worth anywhere near 90 points.


It's to kill smashfether.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:51:57


 
   
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 Swampmist wrote:
Traditio wrote:
 Swampmist wrote:
I say leave the razorbacks off the free list entirely, and make it "5 models for a Rhino, 10 for a drop pod." Then Make inertial guidance only reduce scatter if the pod would hit terrain (something a guidance system would actually account for) and I'd say most of the stuff is fine. Oh, and give Templars a Detachment, because it's dumb that they don't have one.


It's a points equivalence thing. According to the codex, rhino = drop pod. Razorback is somewhat worse than 2 rhinos.

To justify your "nerf," you'd have to make drop pods cost more.



I realize the points cost argument, but the simple fact is that a Drop Pod is very much more useful than a Rhino for it's cost. Also, letting only 10-man squads take a transport with only 6 Carrying Capacity feels unintuitive, to say the least. and, honestly, I don't think Drop Pods would be terrible at 45-50 points, simply by virtue of how good thay make the marine alpha strike and how much they invalidate Assault Marines and terminators in their role as "behind-enemy-lines" specialists.

Edit: Pain, would you mind explaining your changes? Because personally, they seem INCREDIBLY harsh, and I'd like to hear your reasoning. Traditio's too, I suppose, but his are pretty much in-line with what I think is op in the codex, though hearing his reasons would probably still


Ok so my reasoning on the centurion thing is actually survivability. T5 is great and all but ap2 as we now is abundant and by lowering a toughness but adding an invul I feel they still justify same points cost while increasing survivability. If you don't like the lowering of toughness then keep it but increase them 5 ppm for the invul.
The drop pod is incredibly under costed. I do not feel 10 points is much to ask for it. It would still be incredibly spammed.
Disregard my biker increase, 24 ppm is fine.
I will say that 10 man squads should be what needs a razorback if it is to be free. Combat squad if you wanna make marines fit. Spamming Razorbacks is something that def needs to be looked at
   
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Get rid of Skyhammer.

Get rid of Gladius.

Get rid of Librarian Conclave.

Make it so invisibility can't target models with more than one wound or vehicles of any kind.

No ICs from codex A can join units from codex B.

Ban Angels of Death outright.

Units from codex A can't ride in transports from codex B.

Eliminate shield eternal and gorgon's chain.

All this coupled with fixes for Eldar and Tau, of course.
   
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I am part of the camp that thinks the shield is fine at 50 points, but I would not be adverse to a points increase. But let's be honest: 90 points is a ridiculous price.
   
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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 Swampmist wrote:
Traditio wrote:
 Swampmist wrote:
I say leave the razorbacks off the free list entirely, and make it "5 models for a Rhino, 10 for a drop pod." Then Make inertial guidance only reduce scatter if the pod would hit terrain (something a guidance system would actually account for) and I'd say most of the stuff is fine. Oh, and give Templars a Detachment, because it's dumb that they don't have one.


It's a points equivalence thing. According to the codex, rhino = drop pod. Razorback is somewhat worse than 2 rhinos.

To justify your "nerf," you'd have to make drop pods cost more.



I realize the points cost argument, but the simple fact is that a Drop Pod is very much more useful than a Rhino for it's cost. Also, letting only 10-man squads take a transport with only 6 Carrying Capacity feels unintuitive, to say the least. and, honestly, I don't think Drop Pods would be terrible at 45-50 points, simply by virtue of how good thay make the marine alpha strike and how much they invalidate Assault Marines and terminators in their role as "behind-enemy-lines" specialists.

Edit: Pain, would you mind explaining your changes? Because personally, they seem INCREDIBLY harsh, and I'd like to hear your reasoning. Traditio's too, I suppose, but his are pretty much in-line with what I think is op in the codex, though hearing his reasons would probably still


Ok so my reasoning on the centurion thing is actually survivability. T5 is great and all but ap2 as we now is abundant and by lowering a toughness but adding an invul I feel they still justify same points cost while increasing survivability. If you don't like the lowering of toughness then keep it but increase them 5 ppm for the invul.
The drop pod is incredibly under costed. I do not feel 10 points is much to ask for it. It would still be incredibly spammed.
Disregard my biker increase, 24 ppm is fine.
I will say that 10 man squads should be what needs a razorback if it is to be free. Combat squad if you wanna make marines fit. Spamming Razorbacks is something that def needs to be looked at


Ah, ok, yeah the bike thing was one of the big ones I understand. Personally, I think 5 ppm but giving them an invuln would work, though I think leaving them T5 but making them 1W with the 6++ (with the current cost) might work better, would have to test it to find out for sure.

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 IllumiNini wrote:
I am part of the camp that thinks the shield is fine at 50 points, but I would not be adverse to a points increase. But let's be honest: 90 points is a ridiculous price.


What you're paying for is eternal warrior. The named characters in the codex who have eternal warrior pay a premium for it. Big Papa Smurf costs 275 points. Captain Lysander costs 230 points.

By the time you finish tacking on all of those upgrades to Smashfether, how much is it worth to you for him not to get one-shotted?

Probably more than 50 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:55:27


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
IllumiNini wrote: have issue with these three points.

That part of Point (1) makes no sense to me because A Razorback has a Transport Capacity of 6. So what that is essentially saying to me is "Have a free transport/support vehicle that the squad can't utilise properly".


1. Ruleswise, it's a points consideration. Razorbacks are 55 ppm. Given the choice between getting a free 35 ppm model and a free 55 ppm, of course you're going to go for the 55 ppm model if it's free.

2. Fluffwise? It's not completely unreasonable. In a traditional space marines tactical squad, you have 10 men. That includes a sergeant, a heavy weapons guy and a special weapons guy. Combat squad. Put the special weapons guy in the razorback. Heavy weapons squad hangs back and provides cover fire.


But it can't just be a points consideration. Yes, points have to come into it, but I don't think it's every that simple.

And yes: fluff-wise it may make sense, but there's not a huge amount of sense it making it work fluff-wise if it doesn't really make sense on the tabletop.


Traditio wrote:
Point (10) is just a wild over-pricing of the item. Think about it: If it costs 90 points, then you could either get a baseline Captain (or a Baseline Librarian with ML2), or you could give an eligible model a Shield Eternal for the same amount of points, which is stupid. A Storm Shield that confers Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior is not worth anywhere near 90 points.


It's to kill smashfether.


Well an increase in points to 60 or 70 points may do that better without making it over-priced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:
 IllumiNini wrote:
I am part of the camp that thinks the shield is fine at 50 points, but I would not be adverse to a points increase. But let's be honest: 90 points is a ridiculous price.


What you're paying for is eternal warrior. The named characters in the codex who have eternal warrior pay a premium for it. Big Papa Smurf costs 275 points. Captain Lysander costs 230 points.

By the time you finish tacking on all of those upgrades to Smashfether, how much is it worth to you for him not to get one-shotted?

Probably more than 50 points.


Goddamn people are posting fast haha. See above.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 00:57:30


 
   
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I think 60 is a fine place for it, and increase the cost of all storm shields except on termies by 5 or 10 points. a 3++ should not cost like 10 ppm

 Tamereth wrote:

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IllumiNini wrote:1. Ruleswise, it's a points consideration. Razorbacks are 55 ppm. Given the choice between getting a free 35 ppm model and a free 55 ppm, of course you're going to go for the 55 ppm model if it's free.


At the very least, can we at least agree on the following point?

It is grossly unfair to have a 550 points advantage (in terms of models) over your opponent (if you only take 1 battle company), over and in addition to the free combat doctrines.

Goddamn people are posting fast haha. See above.


I'm not really married to the "90" number. I just made it the cost of a captain. 70 is probably fine too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anybody disagree with number 13 listed above?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 01:08:34


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
IllumiNini wrote:1. Ruleswise, it's a points consideration. Razorbacks are 55 ppm. Given the choice between getting a free 35 ppm model and a free 55 ppm, of course you're going to go for the 55 ppm model if it's free.


At the very least, can we at least agree on the following point?

It is grossly unfair to have a 550 points advantage (in terms of models) over your opponent (if you only take 1 battle company), over and in addition to the free combat doctrines.

Goddamn people are posting fast haha. See above.


I'm not really married to the "90" number. I just made it the cost of a captain. 70 is probably fine too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anybody disagree with number 13 listed above?


On the Flakk missile change? Yup! honestly, there ARE things that sorely need a buff in C:SM (most Heavy weapons not named the Grav-Cannon and Termies come to mind,) and flakk being not utter gak for it's cost would go a long way with that.

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Swampmist wrote:On the Flakk missile change? Yup! honestly, there ARE things that sorely need a buff in C:SM (most Heavy weapons not named the Grav-Cannon and Termies come to mind,) and flakk being not utter gak for it's cost would go a long way with that.


I don't think that any of the heavy weapons other than the missile launcher (except perhaps the heavy bolter, but I'm not convinced of this) need a buff. The problem isn't the power level of the weapons. The problem is the condition of the meta. Tau and Eldar need nerfs.

The missile launcher is the only exception. At 25 ppm for a missile launcher with flakk missiles, it's hard to justify taking it over lascannons or plasma cannons. 20 ppm flakk missile launchers would at least put them on parity with lascannons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 01:19:56


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
Swampmist wrote:On the Flakk missile change? Yup! honestly, there ARE things that sorely need a buff in C:SM (most Heavy weapons not named the Grav-Cannon and Termies come to mind,) and flakk being not utter gak for it's cost would go a long way with that.


I don't think that any of the heavy weapons other than the missile launcher need a buff. The problem isn't the power level of the weapons. The problem is the condition of the meta. Tau and Eldar need nerfs.

The missile launcher is the only exception. At 25 ppm for a missile launcher with flakk missiles, it's hard to justify taking it over lascannons or plasma cannons. 20 ppm flakk missile launchers would at least put them on parity with lascannons.


I would argue that the Plasma Cannon still needs a buff, as it is the only weapon that can under no circumstance be snap-fired (except your version of the Grav Cannon) and pays up the butt for s7, so even the new grav-cannon out-does it for the cost. Maybe make it hit a larger area? idk, it's a weird weapon to balance without out-competing the grav-cannon...

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Swampmist wrote:I would argue that the Plasma Cannon still needs a buff, as it is the only weapon that can under no circumstance be snap-fired (except your version of the Grav Cannon) and pays up the butt for s7, so even the new grav-cannon out-does it for the cost. Maybe make it hit a larger area? idk, it's a weird weapon to balance without out-competing the grav-cannon...


It's situational. Against vehicles, T5 and weak armor saves, the plasma cannon would be as good or better than my version of grav cannons. Grav cannons would only shine against MCs (which they could now hit at range) and really tough elite infantry.

Come to think of it, it would make plasma cannons pretty much better than grav cannons most of the time.

The only obvious benefit to grav is the lack of the gets hot rule.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 01:26:48


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
Swampmist wrote:I would argue that the Plasma Cannon still needs a buff, as it is the only weapon that can under no circumstance be snap-fired (except your version of the Grav Cannon) and pays up the butt for s7, so even the new grav-cannon out-does it for the cost. Maybe make it hit a larger area? idk, it's a weird weapon to balance without out-competing the grav-cannon...


It's situational. Against vehicles, T5 and weak armor saves, the plasma cannon would be as good or better than my version of grav cannons. Grav cannons would only shine against MCs (which they could now hit at range) and really tough elite infantry.


that's why I think it could do with being a bigger blast, or even s6 Heavy 2 (keeping it a blast weapon.) It would give it a point in killing things like massed SMs, hordes outside of cover, ect. again, it would need playtesting, but it would differentiate the weapon enough to justify risking Gets Hot! when compared to the Grav Cannon.

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I actually think marines are very mediocre once you kill the formations. Like the only thing really going for them after that is grav, and if they take a lot of it, they auto lose to daemons and orks.

You don't really need the point changes unless you plan on keeping the formations, which is silly IMO.

Also fixing psychic powers would reign in crazy stars.

Oh one last thing, no bike anywhere in any army should be a troop choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 02:24:27


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 niv-mizzet wrote:
I actually think marines are very mediocre once you kill the formations. Like the only thing really going for them after that is grav, and if they take a lot of it, they auto lose to daemons and orks.

You don't really need the point changes unless you plan on keeping the formations, which is silly IMO.


Formations need a re-work or need to be removed. They're part of why every Space Marine Chapter (whether or not they have their own codex or supplement) can be made to be OP as hell.


 niv-mizzet wrote:
Oh one last thing, no bike anywhere in any army should be a troop choice.


Can't agree with this more.
   
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 niv-mizzet wrote:
I actually think marines are very mediocre once you kill the formations. Like the only thing really going for them after that is grav, and if they take a lot of it, they auto lose to daemons and orks.

You don't really need the point changes unless you plan on keeping the formations, which is silly IMO.


Keep formations. Remove the shenanigans. I think that the OP goes some degree to doing this.

Oh one last thing, no bike anywhere in any army should be a troop choice.


Why not?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 02:43:33


 
   
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@traditio
Bikes are super fast, tough, and can jink. They are much better than standard troops. Whatever, they pay a little more and don't have obsec because they aren't troops, that's alright.

Giving them obsec by being a troop choice in a Cad removes any reason whatsoever to take the foot guys.

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Traditio 688340 8604581 nul wrote:
Oh one last thing, no bike anywhere in any army should be a troop choice.


Why not?


For the same reason things like Librarians being a Troops Choice aren't a thing - to be that would make any sense.
   
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 niv-mizzet wrote:
@traditio
Bikes are super fast, tough, and can jink. They are much better than standard troops. Whatever, they pay a little more and don't have obsec because they aren't troops, that's alright.

Giving them obsec by being a troop choice in a Cad removes any reason whatsoever to take the foot guys.


This can't be ameliorated by adjusting points costs?

Would you prefer the 14 ppm tactical marine or the 24 ppm bike (they're currently only 21 ppm)?

14 ppm dire avenger or 24 ppm windrider bike (they are currently only 17 ppm)?
   
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Traditio wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
@traditio
Bikes are super fast, tough, and can jink. They are much better than standard troops. Whatever, they pay a little more and don't have obsec because they aren't troops, that's alright.

Giving them obsec by being a troop choice in a Cad removes any reason whatsoever to take the foot guys.


This can't be ameliorated by adjusting points costs?

Would you prefer the 14 ppm tactical marine or the 24 ppm bike (they're currently only 21 ppm)?

14 ppm dire avenger or 24 ppm windrider bike (they are currently only 17 ppm)?


Eh might as well say 27 ppm for windriders as, yes I'm even guilty, we usually load them up with scatter lasers. But even if we do the cannon it's still 27 ppm. Only when it's the catapult is it 17 ppm
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Traditio wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
@traditio
Bikes are super fast, tough, and can jink. They are much better than standard troops. Whatever, they pay a little more and don't have obsec because they aren't troops, that's alright.

Giving them obsec by being a troop choice in a Cad removes any reason whatsoever to take the foot guys.


This can't be ameliorated by adjusting points costs?

Would you prefer the 14 ppm tactical marine or the 24 ppm bike (they're currently only 21 ppm)?

14 ppm dire avenger or 24 ppm windrider bike (they are currently only 17 ppm)?


The issue there is that it's possible to have them not be troops. By adjusting point cost, you're either making them undercosted obsec troop bikes or overcosted fast attacks.

I'm happy with the bikes current cost until you hand it obsec and get to knock your subpar tacticals out of the list. The change in efficiency for the list there is quite drastic. More than any slight point adjustment will cover.

Windriders would be cool at their current cost as fast attacks, but the ability to cross the board and win the game in addition to not having to take foot troops is where it gets crazy. People focus on the lasers a lot, but they're just a red herring. It's that obsec 48" move that will end up taking the game from you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 02:59:48


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