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Had a Question about Warpmetal Armour

If a Psyker is embarked on a transport, that is a part of a Squadron would this buff the whole unit or just the vehicle that the Psyker is in?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Had a Question about Warpmetal Armour

If a Psyker is embarked on a transport, that is a part of a Squadron would this buff the whole unit or just the vehicle that the Psyker is in?

From 'Psykers and Transports' (pg. 25, main rulebook):

Psykers embarked on a Transport can only target enemy units with witchfire psychic powers, and only then if the vehicle has a firing point that has line of sight to the target unit. Psykers embarked on a Transport cannot attempt to manifest any other type of psychic power.

So its a moot point as the psyker would not be able to cast Warpmetal Armour.

Warpmetal Armour specifically gives permission for the psyker to cast on the transport he is embarked on.

And the power also specifically says it gives +1 AV to "all models in that unit."

So no questions or problems, move along, move along.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Had a Question about Warpmetal Armour

If a Psyker is embarked on a transport, that is a part of a Squadron would this buff the whole unit or just the vehicle that the Psyker is in?

From 'Psykers and Transports' (pg. 25, main rulebook):

Psykers embarked on a Transport can only target enemy units with witchfire psychic powers, and only then if the vehicle has a firing point that has line of sight to the target unit. Psykers embarked on a Transport cannot attempt to manifest any other type of psychic power.

So its a moot point as the psyker would not be able to cast Warpmetal Armour.

You have not read Warpmetal armor I see.

The Power gives specific allowance to cast while embarked, but can only target the psykers transport.

Who cares whether he's read it or not? Is it really necessary to point out that fact? I would say that it is not, if only in hopes of having a more amicable discussion.

The book I'm reading right now says that to have healthy relationships you should "change the focus from what didn't happen to what you want." For example, instead of saying, "You didn't wash your hands," you can say, "I'd like you to wash your hands before dinner."

Yeah, my bad. I failed to read the second paragraph the first time through but I think the second paragraph is pretty conclusive that it would only effect the transport he is on and not the others in the squadron.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Warpmetal Armour specifically gives permission for the psyker to cast on the transport he is embarked on.

And the power also specifically says it gives +1 AV to "all models in that unit."

So no questions or problems, move along, move along.

It only gives the +1 AV to all models if the target is the unit.

If embarked, the target can only be the transport. Ergo, the unit is no longer the target, the one transport is.

Only the psyker's transport gets it in that case.

Do not forget that the power targets Units.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not forget that the power targets Units.

Unless the psyker is embarked upon a transport vehicle. In which case they may only target the vehicle they're embarked upon, which may only be one model in a unit.

It's usually best to read the rules carefully before enquiring about them, as you may otherwise miss something that answers your question before you need to ask it. That makes you look a bit silly and can annoy other uses.

However if someone does commit the minor solecism of asking a quesiton that has a pretty clear answer in the rules, it's nicer just to point them to the bit they've missed, rather than get annoyed and blame them.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not forget that the power targets Units.

Unless the psyker is embarked upon a transport vehicle. In which case they may only target the vehicle they're embarked upon, which may only be one model in a unit.

\

Yes it targets the vehicle the psyker is embarked upon, but the power still effects units.

Wrong again. It specifically states that it only affects the whole unit if the whole unit is the target. Since the target in that case is not the whole unit, only the transport receives the buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're just reiterating that it CAN affect units. Then yeah.

BossJakadakk wrote:
Wrong again. It specifically states that it only affects the whole unit if the whole unit is the target. Since the target in that case is not the whole unit, only the transport receives the buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're just reiterating that it CAN affect units. Then yeah.

Since you are trying to go that route, the effects only happen to Vehicle units, and non-vehicle units.

If you want to claim that the caveat of only targeting the vehicle he is embarked upon means only that vehicle gains any effect; then the power effects no vehicles in a squadron(since it has targeted no unit).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, or just having trouble making my point. Are squadrons units?

The power says it affects a unit only if it targets a unit.

So if it doesn't target the unit (by only targeting the transport), then it doesn't affect the whole unit.

It allows the psyker to target his transport, but at that point the target has changed from the "unit" to only the "transport," and the requirement within the very first paragraph of the power which talks about the power affecting a unit "if a unit is the target" is not met.

I'm either explaining this poorly or the exact wording of the power needs to be shown here.

Or the argument you guys are making is that regardless of the requirement of affecting a unit only by targeting the full unit, targeting one vehicle will affect the whole unit, which is not RAW as I read it, due to it explicitly requiring you to target the whole unit at once to affect the whole unit.

Ues, squadrons are units of vehicles. They have a couple different rules such as coherency and how damage is worked out.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Since you are trying to go that route, the effects only happen to Vehicle units, and non-vehicle units.

I don't understand how that comes from what I said. My argument is not that it only effects units, but that it only does so if it actually targets a full unit, per the wording of the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


If you want to claim that the caveat of only targeting the vehicle he is embarked upon means only that vehicle gains any effect; then the power effects no vehicles in a squadron(since it has targeted no unit).

Then yeah maybe I'll have to read up on vehicle squadron rules, because I have almost no experience of them. If a squadron doesn't fully count as a unit per rules, then what I am saying is that only one target vehicle gains the benefit.

In this case, what I am saying is that no matter what, only the psyker's transport gains a buff, because he is embarked.

Otherwise if a squadron counts as a unit, and he is not embarked, then the whole squadron gets it.

I'm confused about what you guys are confused about...

It normally targets units, non-vehicle and vehicle alike... however if embarked in a transport - it then ONLY targets that transport (not any type of unit) that the psyker is embarked upon.

If I'm correct, I believe what people are trying to say is that regardless of target, it will buff the whole unit or squadron. Even though it specifically says it affects a unit if a unit is the target.

BossJakadakk wrote:
If I'm correct, I believe what people are trying to say is that regardless of target, it will buff the whole unit or squadron. Even though it specifically says it affects a unit if a unit is the target.

Yeah it does, EXCEPT in the case of the psyker being embarked in a transport, in which case, the power ONLY affects that transport (it does NOT say anything about "unit" here).

 Gunzhard wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
If I'm correct, I believe what people are trying to say is that regardless of target, it will buff the whole unit or squadron. Even though it specifically says it affects a unit if a unit is the target.

Yeah it does, EXCEPT in the case of the psyker being embarked in a transport, in which case, the power ONLY affects that transport (it does NOT say anything about "unit" here).

Exactly my argument. Preach!

What unit is a squadron of transports?

Since this is a SM power, we only need to look at IoM squadrons. SM flavors don't have a transport squadron to my knowledge. Mechanicus, =][=, and Assassins don't. Does AS or AM?

Squadron of land raiders somehow?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
What unit is a squadron of transports?

Since this is a SM power, we only need to look at IoM squadrons. SM flavors don't have a transport squadron to my knowledge. Mechanicus, =][=, and Assassins don't. Does AS or AM?

Militarum Tempestus has Valkyrie squadrons

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
What unit is a squadron of transports?

Since this is a SM power, we only need to look at IoM squadrons. SM flavors don't have a transport squadron to my knowledge. Mechanicus, =][=, and Assassins don't. Does AS or AM?

Even if there was a squadron/unit of transports... the psyker could only target them while on the table, NOT while embarked in a transport, regardless of whether it's part of a squadron or not.

Once he is embarked... the rules specifically change - he is no longer targeting 'units' he is targeting ONLY that ONE TRANSPORT that he is embarked upon.

That seems to be the consensus, yes. Why the repetition?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
That seems to be the consensus, yes. Why the repetition?

Looks like it was my bad, actually. I misunderstood what Kel was saying (I think) the first couple times I read it.

So basically we are all arguing that we all agree with the same conclusion? Hahaha... that's hilarious.

Valkyries and Vedettas are both able to be taken as a Squadron and are transports.

A Squadron is a unit, an individual model within a squadron is not a unit.

If the libby is in a valkyrie and you are taking the "can only target the transport he is embarked upon" too literally, then the power will have no effect as you should also be taking the effect just as literally("if the target is a vehicle unit").

In reality the transport bit is just a bad cut-and-paste from the other 2 blessings that only target vehicle models. If the target is the embarked transport, then the target must be the embarked transport's unit for the rule to have any effect(at which point it effects all models in the unit).

Do I think we will see many Libbys in valk/vend squadrons? No, the point is likely moot; but you cannot claim that the power targeting the 1 model can only effect that model when the powers effects are dependent on targeting units.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Valkyries and Vedettas are both able to be taken as a Squadron and are transports.

A Squadron is a unit, an individual model within a squadron is not a unit.

If the libby is in a valkyrie and you are taking the "can only target the transport he is embarked upon" too literally, then the power will have no effect as you should also be taking the effect just as literally("if the target is a vehicle unit").

In reality the transport bit is just a bad cut-and-paste from the other 2 blessings that only target vehicle models. If the target is the embarked transport, then the target must be the embarked transport's unit for the rule to have any effect(at which point it effects all models in the unit).

Do I think we will see many Libbys in valk/vend squadrons? No, the point is likely moot; but you cannot claim that the power targeting the 1 model can only effect that model when the powers effects are dependent on targeting units.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Because the power only even mentions that it takes any effect when it is referencing a time when it targets a vehicle unit. Meaning it doesn't actually mention a point in time when it gives a buff to a single vehicle, only that it states the target becomes only the transport, making the effect moot because the effect is dependent upon targeting a unit. Right?

I thought the first paragraph says it can affect a single vehicle, though. Am I mistaken? I don't have it in front of me.

A different power in the tree does say that it affects a single vehicle.
Some blessings target the Psyker in a unit, or a Character, so it's not impossible to target a specific model in a unit with a blessing, rather than the whole unit.

My question about squadrons was aimed at what Kel said outright: it's likely moot, because Libbys are probably not going to be embarking in vehicle squadrons.