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2 different powers.

Both are blessings that target a single vehicle model.

Both also have the allowance to cast while embarked but only on the enabarked transport. It is a clear and obvious copy-paste across all three without thinking about the different targeting of warpmetal.

Oh man... Ok so you're saying the card is wrong, and the RAI ruling is - even if embarked the entire vehicle squadron would be affected?

I'm still not sure that was the intent here but I'd let you play it that way. As I said before - whoever wrote these rules was HIGH AS ****!

This is like my RAI v RAW question about Warp Quake... it doesn't mention anything about 'Ignores Cover' ...but the next closest rule (destroying buildings) does specifically ignore cover... and when you are supposedly taking cover in the very stuff falling on your head - I don't think you should get a cover save.

These rules are just -- wacky.

I am saying the Card is poorly written; and that poor writing is being even more poorly applied.

Saying that the embarked psyker only targeting the transport he is embarked upon means that only the transport can benefit from that rule is fallacious as, the rule only effects Vehicle units targeted; and a single transport upon which the psyker is embarked within a squadron is not a vehicle unit on its own.

So either, in a Squadron of 3 Valkyries with the Libby in one of them; All 3 gain the +1 AV, or none of them do. The Valkyrie upon which the Psyker cannot gain the +1AV without the rest of them.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I am saying the Card is poorly written; and that poor writing is being even more poorly applied.

Saying that the embarked psyker only targeting the transport he is embarked upon means that only the transport can benefit from that rule is fallacious as, the rule only effects Vehicle units targeted; and a single transport upon which the psyker is embarked within a squadron is not a vehicle unit on its own.

So either, in a Squadron of 3 Valkyries with the Libby in one of them; All 3 gain the +1 AV, or none of them do. The Valkyrie upon which the Psyker cannot gain the +1AV without the rest of them.

Honestly I think several of these cards were poorly written... still, poorly written or not, if you read the card it tells you what the rule IS (perhaps not what you or I think it should be)...

To me this rule clearly reads, it targets Units --- HOWEVER, in the case of being embarked, (this is an exception) instead of targeting units, it then ONLY targets that one transport. I don't get what is fallacious?

It only targets the model, but effects only units. Otherwise you cant resolve the power at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It only targets the model, but effects only units. Otherwise you cant resolve the power at all.

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. You guys are really stretching the rules here. There are SEVERAL psychic powers (older ones) that target _just_ the Psyker; are you saying that all of those rules also affect the Psyker's "unit"?

So Precognition for example, targets the whole unit? ...by this line of reasoning, your answer should be yes.

Ok lets quote just the effect for you:
"If it targets a vehicle unit..."

Honestly I don't even need to go further into the effect: If there is a valkyrie squadron with Valkyries A, B, and C, and the libby is embarked on Valkyrie A; then following the bad copy-paste you did not target a vehicle unit so there is no effect.

If you want an effect; you have either consider targeting the vehicle he is embaked upon as targeting the whole unit, or at least sufficient for targeting the whole unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Precognition specifically targets the psyker.

Warpmetal armour targets a single friendly unit; and then has an effect dependent on whether targets a vehicle unit or a non-vehicle unit.

The effect is based on unit targeted and then even specifies(the rest I didn't bother with): "then whilst this power is in effect add 1 to all the the Armour Values of models in that unit."

No. Warpmetal armour targets a single friend unit OR in the case of being embarked (an exception to the normal application) - it says very clearly that it targets ONLY that transport; no longer targeting "units".

Your valkyrie example doesn't hold up when you look at other examples, like Precognition.

I think you're trying to make the argument that Blessings, typically target units. However, directly in the core rulebook there are a handful of psychic powers that have Blessings targeting individual models. Cut and Paste or not -- that's what it says.

And if it is targeting no unit; what does the effect say?

If you want to go Hard RAW, then by all means do so; but remain consistent.

If you only target the 1 transport you are embarked upon in a unit of multiple models; then the rules do not tell us of any effect.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And if it is targeting no unit; what does the effect say?

If you want to go Hard RAW, then by all means do so; but remain consistent.

If you only target the 1 transport you are embarked upon in a unit of multiple models; then the rules do not tell us of any effect.

How and why? ...there are many RAW examples where ONE model, in a unit, has some rule/power exclusive to just that model... as I said, there are examples right in the core Psychic powers. By your reasoning, Precognition, and several other 'Blessing' powers, would HAVE to affect the entire unit. If that's what you're saying that is some game breaking news.

This part of the rule:

targets a single friendly unit within 24"

Is NO Longer Relevant once the psyker is embarked, A) because it says so! ...B) --within 24"-- no longer matters, and C) it's dead clear "may ONLY target the vehicle he is embarked upon.

We have a general condition; followed by, IF (scenario X) THEN (something ELSE / different from the general condition happens).

I also think it is funny that you chose precognition to make your point.

Precognition is a Divination power that targets the psyker, and then details effects only to the psyker.

Divination has another power that targets only the psyker: perfect timing. Perfect Timing details an effect for the psyker and his unit.

If you were going to make a point about a blessing that only targets a single model in the unit, and then only effects that model as being anywhere near comparable; I would have at least expected you to choose one where the power immediately preceding it doesn't prove your case wrong

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I also think it is funny that you chose precognition to make your point.

Precognition is a Divination power that targets the psyker, and then details effects only to the psyker.

Divination has another power that targets only the psyker: perfect timing. Perfect Timing details an effect for the psyker and his unit.

If you were going to make a point about a blessing that only targets a single model in the unit, and then only effects that model as being anywhere near comparable; I would have at least expected you to choose one where the power immediately preceding it doesn't prove your case wrong

That doesn't make any sense; you are saying that Blessings ONLY target units. I am saying they can target whatever the rule actually says... which in some cases is the unit, in some cases an Individual model and his unit if he has one, and in some other cases - just the Individual model, whether he has a unit or not --- these examples actually exist right in the core rules.

You think it's a bad cut and paste; maybe - still, it doesn't say what you want it to say.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:



This part of the rule:

targets a single friendly unit within 24"

Is NO Longer Relevant once the psyker is embarked

I didn't say that part of the rule was relevent.

I said this part:

If it is targeting a vehicle unit,

And this part:

add +1 to all the armour values of models in that unit

Were relevent.


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 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I also think it is funny that you chose precognition to make your point.

Precognition is a Divination power that targets the psyker, and then details effects only to the psyker.

Divination has another power that targets only the psyker: perfect timing. Perfect Timing details an effect for the psyker and his unit.

If you were going to make a point about a blessing that only targets a single model in the unit, and then only effects that model as being anywhere near comparable; I would have at least expected you to choose one where the power immediately preceding it doesn't prove your case wrong

That doesn't make any sense; you are saying that Blessings ONLY target units. I am saying they can target whatever the rule actually says... which in some cases is the unit, in some cases an Individual model and his unit if he has one, and in some other cases - just tother 2e Individual model, whether he has a unit or not --- these examples actually exist right in the core rules.

You think it's a bad cut and paste; maybe - still, it doesn't say what you want it to say.

I have never once said blessings only target units.

I even pointed out that the other 2 blessing target single vehicle models.

The power only affects "models in that unit" IF/when it "targets a vehicle unit"... however, when/IF the psyker is embarked, THEN its affects "may only target the vehicle he is embarked upon."

Seriously I get what you're trying to say, but it just doesn't work... and it really seems like severe rule stretching for benefit.

I am not reaching for a benefit.

I presented you with the 2 options based on the RAW.

The Raw changes the target to the transport that the psyker is embarked upon. That does nothing to change the effect of the power.

Option 1) You are targeting a model and not a unit; the effect does not tell us what to do when targeting anything less than a unit and therefore has no effect at all(waste of casting)

Option 2) You are targeting a model and not a unit; the effect does not tell us what to do when targeting anything less than a unit and therefore we apply the effect in full to all models in the unit that the targeted model is a part of(like perfect timing)

Note: and I want to be absolutely clear about this: these options are only present if the transport is part of a multiple model unit. If the Transport is a unit unto itself; than targeting the transport is targeting a unit.

No now you're just being obtuse dude. Perfect Timing specifically says "and his unit" for one thing, this rule does NOT.

The effect DOES tell us what to do when targeting anything less than a unit - it does the same thing; individual vehicles also have Armour values.

Ok so to make you happy: The rule should have said:

If the Psyker is embarked on a Transport vehicle, he may still attempt to manifest this psychic power, but may only target the vehicle he is embarked upon, then whilst it is in effect add 1 to all the Armour Values (Front, Sides and Rear) to the vehicle.

Is that right? ...do you really think that was necessary? ...does it really need to repeat that part twice?

This rule doesn't just say anything like and the unit; it says, very plainly, "of models in that unit."

Libby embarked on Valk A casts, targeting Valk A as he must; Is Valk B a model in that unit?

You are asking to change too many rules.

First you want to change the way it effects the target from "targeting a vehicle unit" to simply "targeting a vehicle". And I could go with that because it is the only way just targeting the embarked upon transport can have any listed effect.

But then you also want to change "add 1 to all the Armour values of models in that unit." to just "add 1 to all the Armour Values of this model."

And once again you are expecting every bit of the rule to change because the single section that is allowing you to cast a blessing while embarked uses the exact same verbiage as the 2 other blessings that only target single friendly vehicle models.

Holy cow dude... first I'm not changing "targeting a vehicle unit" to 'targeting a vehicle' --- that is actually what the rule says; "may only target the vehicle he is embarked upon" - Period.

This is very simple, the redundancy that you require is just silly. See my last post.

But really you can do whatever you want and read any rule as far fetched as you like.

No. The rule says to change "target a single friendly unit" to may only target the transport.


Then it says "if the target is a vehicle unit" which is what I said you are trying to change.

But it is clear at this point that you just have no freaking clue what the rule says at all.

Anyone care to cite the actual rule. That should clear things up quickly enough.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No. The rule says to change "target a single friendly unit" to may only target the transport.


Then it says "if the target is a vehicle unit" which is what I said you are trying to change.

But it is clear at this point that you just have no freaking clue what the rule says at all.

Hah wow... I'm not trying to change that, I know what the rule says, I quoted it DIRECTLY, and again "may only target the vehicle he is embarked upon". This is VERY simple.

At it's very best, your argument suggests that -- this rule doesn't tells us what to do with an individual vehicle.

However, it DOES tell us because it is EXACTLY the same application whether we are talking about 1 vehicle or a unit of 100 vehicles. Why would they need to be redundant here? ...who wouldn't understand this?

Let me ask you, do you think your 'interpretation' will be accepted at major events, tournaments and by the greater community at large? ...is it possible that you are being a little unreasonable for the sake of driving home your 'logic'? I'll even accept that perhaps the RAI is what you think it _should be_. I'll also accept that each of these new rules could've been written much better.

Fragile wrote:
Anyone care to cite the actual rule. That should clear things up quickly enough.

I believe it's still against the forum-rules to post full game rules here.

The thing is though, Kel isn't wrong.

It might target a model, but it effects the unit.
Unless you're trying to say everyone has been playing Foreboding, Perfect Timing, Levitation and even Cursed Earth, Telekine Dome and Shrouding wrong, and only the Psyker can be effected as he's the only model targeted (even if it says it also effects his unit or other units near him).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The thing is though, Kel isn't wrong.

It might target a model, but it effects the unit.
Unless you're trying to say everyone has been playing Foreboding, Perfect Timing, Levitation and even Cursed Earth, Telekine Dome and Shrouding wrong, and only the Psyker can be effected as he's the only model targeted (even if it says it also effects his unit or other units near him).

Except in those examples, like you said, it "says it also effects his unit". Precognition is an example of one that ONLY affects the psyker and NOT his unit.

Of course he is wrong, in this power (warp metal) it says it affects units OR it affects the transport. Am I the only one with the actual rules in front of me here?

Tone it down by at least 3 notches, folks.

This rule has 3 conditions...

It can target non-vehicle units
Or
It can target vehicle units
Or
It _must_ target "the vehicle he is embarked upon" if the Psyker is embarked.

Kel's argument is this as far as I can tell - the rule tells us how apply the power to non-vehicle units and to vehicle units... but not to individual vehicles.

However, the power is applied exactly the same whether we are talking about 1 vehicle or 1000 vehicles in a unit.

Further, this reasoning would mean that this power cannot work on individual (non-vehicle) models like certain heroes, and that the power cannot work on individual vehicle models like Dreadnoughts or a lone land-raider... because 'targeting' is not the issue; it specifically states, "may only target the vehicle" (not unit)... the issue is the application of the power, apparently.

Precognition is an example of a power that only effects the Psyker because its effect states that it only effects the Psyker.

Acute senses would be a special rule comparable to the power. One or more models in the unit have it, the whole unit benefits(but again that assumes that the qualifiers for which effect is received is met from tageting a single model within a unit. I am speaking about Warpmetal here)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the power wrong.

It can target in 2 conditions:

It can target a friendly unit.

Or

It can target the transport upon which the psyker is embarked.

It then has 1 of 2 effects:

1 is dependent upon targeting a vehicle unit.

The other is dependent upon targeting a non-vehicle unit.

Then the actual effects effect all models in the unit.

Right, Precognition says in only targets the Psyker. Warp Metal says it "may only target the vehicle he is embarked upon" if the Psyker is embarked...

Acute senses is very different and not even a psychic power.

Ok so you're almost there... by your own device... It can target a unit OR it can target an individual vehicle. Those are the conditions as you've said.

Next it tells us how to apply the power to a non-vehicle unit, and to a vehicle unit.

However for condition 2 (the individual vehicle), how to apply the rule is not explicitly duplicated - and that is clearly because it works _exactly_ the same.

Further, again - if you can target individual vehicles, which you agree we can, but can not apply the psychic power to them because they don't tell us how (even though they actually do) - then you also cannot use this power on individual vehicles, like Dreadnoughts, regardless of being embarked or not (because we don't know how - even though we do).

An individual vehicle, like a Dreadnought, is a Vehicle Unit.

Imho i think the wording is clear.

You can't cast blessings at all while embarked in transport.

Warpmetal allow you to do so but the target must be the transport itself.

This will mean if you cast Warpmetal while embarked the Transport (Or the whole squadron if there is one) get the blessing, but not the libby itself.


Warpmetal grant you a permission to target and cast a power against normal rules, after the cast the effects of the power apply as normal as it's written in the description of it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
An individual vehicle, like a Dreadnought, is a Vehicle Unit.

What about a non-IC hero?

In either case, so if an individual vehicle is a unit, and the rule targets the 'individual vehicle' then the rules that work for 'vehicle units' should also work, exactly the same, for individual vehicles.