Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
An individual vehicle, like a Dreadnought, is a Vehicle Unit.

What about a non-IC hero?

In either case, so if an individual vehicle is a unit, and the rule targets the 'individual vehicle' then the rules that work for 'vehicle units' should also work, exactly the same, for individual vehicles.

All models in your army are organised into units. that includes squads, squadrons, independent characters, and single model units, whether vehicle or non vehicle.

ItsPug wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
An individual vehicle, like a Dreadnought, is a Vehicle Unit.

What about a non-IC hero?

In either case, so if an individual vehicle is a unit, and the rule targets the 'individual vehicle' then the rules that work for 'vehicle units' should also work, exactly the same, for individual vehicles.

All models in your army are organised into units. that includes squads, squadrons, independent characters, and single model units, whether vehicle or non vehicle.

Ok, so your Librarian is a unit, as is the individual vehicle he is embarked upon. (from the rulebook):

A unit usually consists of several models that have
banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war
engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

When the psyker is embarked - the power targets his transport (only) because that is what the rule says. The rule tells us how to apply the power to vehicle units (which this individual vehicle is)

If the transport he is embarked upon is part of a vehicle squadron it individually is not a unit, as the entire squadron is.

Therefore, even though only the individual transport is targeted, the entire squadron benefits.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If the transport he is embarked upon is part of a vehicle squadron it individually is not a unit, as the entire squadron is.

Therefore, even though only the individual transport is targeted, the entire squadron benefits.

Where is that written? I can tell you, it's not. ...so by this reasoning, that also means that if a Blessing targets just the Psyker (like Precognition), and he is part of a unit, that 'even though only the individual is targeted, the entire unit benefits'. That's not how it works though.

This particular rule (warpmetal) is conditional ...it can target the unit OR it can target the individual transport, your conclusion is just wishlisting and perhaps even RAI but that's not what the rule says.

The difference is, Precognition targets the Psyker and only says it effects the psyker.

Warpmetal when casted while embarked targets the individual transport but still says it effects the unit.

Again, Perfect Timing is worded in a similar way to Warpmetal. It targets only the Psyker but it says it effects him and his unit.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The difference is, Precognition targets the Psyker and only says it effects the psyker.

Warpmetal when casted while embarked targets the individual transport but still says it effects the unit.

Again, Perfect Timing is worded in a similar way to Warpmetal. It targets only the Psyker but it says it effects him and his unit.

Perfect Timing specifically says, "and his unit" ...warpmetal says it can target the "unit" OR conditionally it can target the individual transport (which also happens to be a unit).

Both Perfect Timing and Precognition are great examples because they show that there is no explicit rule for "units (plural) being implied" - the only thing telling us what to do is the power itself, and warpmetal couldn't be any more clear - "may only target the vehicle".

Again, just because it targets a model, it doesn't mean the power can only effect that model, hence why I used Pefect Timing as an example.

The reason the power effects the vehicle unit even if the individual transport is targetted is because the power states it applies it's benefits to all vehicles in the unit.

I think Kel explained it clearly enough: the power only has an effect listed when it targets a unit. If it targets a model that is not by itself a unit, such as a vehicle in a squadron, then the power does not apparently have any effect, since there's not description of what happens when that's the case.
This clearly cannot be the case, so we revert to using the effect as described: all the vehicles in the unit gain +1AV.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
An individual vehicle, like a Dreadnought, is a Vehicle Unit.

What about a non-IC hero?

In either case, so if an individual vehicle is a unit, and the rule targets the 'individual vehicle' then the rules that work for 'vehicle units' should also work, exactly the same, for individual vehicles.

WTF are you talking about?

A Rhino the Psyker is on, and a single Predator are Both individual units of 1 model. For the Targeting of the power both wind up targeting a vehicle unit(in slightly different ways); these are all fine.

The Predator is a unit of 1 model, the Power targets not the Predator, but rather the Predator Unit(which in essence is targeting the Predator Model).

The Rhino upon which the Libby is embarked is also a unit of 1 model, The caveat to the power says it may target that 1 model as opposed to the unit, but in essence you have still targeted the unit as it is comprised of 1 model(the rhino upon which the Libby is embarked).

A Valkyrie unit comprised of 3 Valkyries is always a unit of 3 models(barring immobilized/destruction) Targeting a Single Valkyrie with Blessing of the Machine only effects the target vehicle. Targeting that same Valkyrie(due to being embarked upon it) with warpmetal effect no one, or also the rest of the vehicles because of the effects of the warp metal rules.

I am now at home in front of my computer so i will provide some full quotes and highlights as I hate attempting those on my phone popping back and forth between apps to get the entire syntax correct and remembering color codes and other HTML(F* working for it, i will do that for actual post-apoc survival skills, Pre-apoc I have an f-ing puter to clarify HTML skills):

First, the Full rules for Warpmetal, as you seem to be unclear:

Warpmetal Armour is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". If this power targets a vehicle unit, then whilst it is in effect add 1 to all the Armour Values (Front, Sides and Rear) of models in that unit. If this power targets a non-vehicle unit, then whilst it is in effect add 1 to the Toughness of all models in the target unit.

If the Psyker is embarked on a Transport vehicle, he may still attempt to manifest this psychic power, but may only target the vehicle he is embarked upon.

Now lets break that down for you in anything other than the libby on a transport:

Warpmetal Armour is a blessing

Name of the Power; Warpmetal Armour,
What is it? a Blessing; A type of Psychic power that officially only targets unit, but we can ignore that via the Next bit.
Who does it Target? Single friendly units(Hold on I will get there in a second) within 24"
What Does it do? If the target is a Vehicle unit , it adds 1 to all armour values in all facings MODELS in THAT UNIT. If the target is a non-vehicle unit it adds 1 to their Toughness.

So what Happens if you are embarked upon a Transport?

That depends.

You can still Cast the blessing, just not on anything other than the transport embarked.

But, if that transport is not the only model in its UNIT you have Targeted neither A VEHICLE UNIT Nor a NON-VEHICLE UNIT, So what does the above rules tell us to do?

FETHING NOTHING, the rules say Nothing about anything other than Units targeted.

But what if we Apply the Targeting restrictions in that last Paragraph to tweek the effected targets?

Then you "adds 1 to all armour values in all facings MODELS in THAT UNIT". You have Changed who is targeted but not who is effected, MODELS in THAT UNIT are who add 1 to all Armour Values. Models that are not the Targeted Transport embarked upon Are MODELS in THAT UNIT of the embarked upon Transport.

Is it Easier to understand now that I have had to Color-shout the pertinent bits?

 Gunzhard wrote:


Perfect Timing specifically says, "and his unit" ...warpmetal says it can target the "unit" OR conditionally it can target the individual transport (which also happens to be a unit).

Both Perfect Timing and Precognition are great examples because they show that there is no explicit rule for "units (plural) being implied" - the only thing telling us what to do is the power itself, and warpmetal couldn't be any more clear - "may only target the vehicle".

I think you are confusing a permission against normal rules with a restriction.

The last part of Warpmetal allows you to target and cast a Blessing against normal rules (No powers others than witchfire can be casted while embarked).

I gotta say, seriously after all that, Matt.Kingsley has swayed me.

Kel's argument put the focus in the wrong place and still really doesn't make sense because it excludes certain individual models. But it doesn't matter, I'm thinking he is right in the end...

Turns out I'm TFG after-all Hah...

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
This clearly cannot be the case, so we revert to using the effect as described: all the vehicles in the unit gain +1AV.

Why?

Is it not just as acceptable by that reasoning to say, "This clearly cannot be the case, so we revert to applying the effect to the target described: the target transport model gains +1AV." ?

*changing the effect, you mean
Least change and all that. THe target changing doesnt mean you also change the effect.

Yep, what Nos said.

It cannot be the case that the effect doesn't do anything. RAW that may happen, but it is literally impossible for that to be RAI. The effect must do something, so we follow what the effect says it does. It effects a unit. so we apply the effect.

We don't change the wording of the rule.

Given the effect relates directly to the target, i.e. "models in that unit" relating to the conditional vehicle unit, why is not equally RAI-possible that the effect affects the target, i.e. only the psyker's transport vehicle?

You say we don't change the wording of the rule, but in either way necessarily you are doing so. In your case you are changing the wording to, "If the target is a vehicle model..." while in my case I am changing the wording to, "...but may only target and affect the vehicle he is..."

I'm not saying either is correct, but I fail to see how one should be regarded as more or necessarily correct than or versus the other.

The effect is in 2 parts(well 4)

The first is the targeted unit-type unit(in this case vehicle unit)

The second is what happens to the first(+1 to all AVs in the unit).

The transport section of the rules restricts the target(it is really saying you cannot cast it on a non-vehicle unit at all, and cannot cast it at any other vehicle units either), to the specific transport. But that does nothing to what happens to that target: +1 to all AVs on models in the unit.

It is rather clearly written that every facing AV of Every Model in the unit targeted gains the point.

That is the other thing: targeting a specific model is still targeting the unit, it is just that most effects that come from targeting a specific model also only occur on that model.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The effect is in 2 parts(well 4)

The first is the targeted unit-type unit(in this case vehicle unit)

The second is what happens to the first(+1 to all AVs in the unit).

The transport section of the rules restricts the target(it is really saying you cannot cast it on a non-vehicle unit at all, and cannot cast it at any other vehicle units either), to the specific transport. But that does nothing to what happens to that target: +1 to all AVs on models in the unit.

It is rather clearly written that every facing AV of Every Model in the unit targeted gains the point.

That is the other thing: targeting a specific model is still targeting the unit, it is just that most effects that come from targeting a specific model also only occur on that model.

So if I have a psychic power where a model must pass a Leadership test on 3D6 and on a fail taking that many wounds, no saves allowed, then the excess wounds would go to other models in the unit?

Does that power's effect say anything about models in the unit?

My issue is that in the non-transport situation the effect is consistent with the target, both in a practical sense (the unit targeted is recipient of the power's effect) but also linguistically in that we have "a vehicle unit" and then "models in that (i.e. the vehicle) unit".

The suggestion is that we should break that consistency specifically because the recipient of the effect is "models in that unit" - but what unit? There is no unit, only the specific transport which is not (necessarily) a vehicle unit. Hence why I argue it seems equally possible and sensible RAI to keep target and recipient of effect consistent in both cases - if the target is a vehicle unit then the whole unit, which is to say all models in it, are affected, and if the target is the transport the psyker is embarked upon then the transport the psyker is embarked upon is affect.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Does that power's effect say anything about models in the unit?

I think he was specifically referring to where you said "targeting a specific model is still targeting the unit".