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My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

There is an obscenely (yet appropriately) massive amount of threads on this very subforum explaining and lamenting how CSM are the worst army in the game, some of which you will find just by going further down the first page.

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

A warp talon is a 30 ppm assault marine with dual lightning claws and a 5+ invuln. A couple of other goodies, but those are the chief selling points.

Then there's that whole "blind everyone within 6 inches of where you deepstrike" stuff.

You really impressed by that?

Ask your friend to run the math of Necron Wraiths versus Warp Talons and see what happens. =)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ask your friend to run the math of Necron Wraiths versus Warp Talons and see what happens. =)

I played against those earlier! Those things are tough. Marines got their power armor saves, but those things just refused to go down for the longest time. Pedro got them, though (as well as a blob of marines).

The problem with warp talons is that it's only really good against T4 MEQs.

There's cheaper ways of killing marines.

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

I think you should not listen to your friends.

Either you or your mate are trolling
In my opinion

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

If your friend really believes that, then he's a giant, flaming donkeycave.

Chaos Marines are so bad right now, that even the Sisters of Bitter beat the ever living gak out of them!

I got to "saying Warp Talons are 'the best'", then I had to stop reading.

There is no way anyone (barring two very vocal people on this forum) can say that with a straight face, much less actually mean it, if they fought against or used Warp Talons. However your friend is right about the rest. Daemon Princes are still pretty scary, just not gamebreaking like they use to be. He might also be playing with the old version of the heldrake, where it had a 360 firing arc (and that was pretty broken).

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

Your friend is the undisputed king and champion of sarcasm, so much so that to squeeze anymore of said sarcasm into a single sentence may in fact cause the rapture and the end of all mankind. For the sake of humanity tell your friend to please stahp.

Either he's the most sarcastic individual I've ever heard of or he's the most clueless about the state of the game.

What a refreshing topic.

First off, I can't tell whether you're trolling or not. Warp talons in a thread asking if csm are overpowered? haha gave me chuckle, then I read on and I thought you might be asking this legit?

CSM can do alright in a closed environment with like minded friends. They remain a totally viable army. But only as long as the other players stay on a level playing field with CSM. Other codices have the potential to leave CSM in the dust in terms of power level. And when considering competitiveness you need to consider every edge you can get. CSM just can't play that game anymore. FW helps a lot, but even then they're still bottom-feeders.

The heldrake and daemon prince can still do some damage, but especially the prince is pretty squishy by today's standards considering how expensive he/she/it will inevitably become in order to be a threat.
And just to cover my bases here, in case MechaEmperor7000 is referring to me about the warp talons. I have defended them a few times. But somehow people always seem to miss the point that, even as I defend them, I know they are really really bad. I'm just trying to say that there are ways to use them if you really really want to use them. But saying warp talons are over powered? Wut Oo ? No, just.... no.

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

The last time I saw the Warptalons, they where pretty much dead as soon as they showed up. I see the local Hellchic die allmost every game because, we have a flyerheavy meta, that means, most games have plenty of AA. And the CSM-princes? They are not that good.
Probably sarcasm.

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

Seems legit.

Kappa.

TWC will stomp all over warp talons in melee. with a 3+ and a 5++ they are slightly worse than terminators in terms of durability and we all know quick terminators go down. They may blind stuff within 6" but its whats beyond 6" that will tear them up.

Ignoring points....Warp talons are pretty good melee units - but they have a major weakness which is no assault grenades; which means if they charge through any terrain they are attacking at initiative 1. But if there were 10 of them jumping around the board I would definitely put them high on my priority list to shoot, you don't want those things assaulting you. If you have a dreadnought though you can lock the unit in combat because they have no weapons that can hurt it.

Certain builds of demon princes can be nasty. Taking a bunch with psychic powers and flying them around the board is called a flying circus (usually from the daemons codex not the CSM one though). A demon prince of nurgle with shrouding and jink has a 2+ cover save (but there is a lot of ignore cover in the game now)

Heldrakes with baleflamers are still really nasty (though they were nerfed abit to only allow shooting in their front arch) they can pretty much take out a squad of marines each turn. But other flyers and anti air will not have to many problems taking them out.

There are ways to mitigate charging through cover, chaosmarauder.

Hit things with pinning weapons before assaulting with warp talons. A unit that has gone to ground doesn't benefit from the initiative penalty usually applied to chargers.

If this is not possible try pre-engage their target unit in combat in a turn previous to the one the warp talons charge.

The Slaanesh primaris power synergises pretty well with assault units that have no assault grenades (it has concussive/blind as well as pinning)... but only if it can land a wound!

Clearly your friend doesn't play CSM.

12"move can be pretty decent when trying to get into charge range. Just cause they can deep strike doesn't mean you always should. With a 12" move plus the thrust move that jet infantry get in the assault phase a clever general should be able to circle around and flank them with the warp talons if there is enough BLOS terrain out there. They would be pretty good counter deepstrike unit as well. Keep em around so they can assault anything that deepstrikes near you. That's a lot of points to tie up in a defense unit though...

Warp Talons are worse than Raptors on the charge against anything but T4 3+ outside of cover. Add the fact they have no Krak or Melta Guns you'd be stupid to take them.

 Xerics wrote:
12"move can be pretty decent when trying to get into charge range. Just cause they can deep strike doesn't mean you always should. With a 12" move plus the thrust move that jet infantry get in the assault phase a clever general should be able to circle around and flank them with the warp talons if there is enough BLOS terrain out there. They would be pretty good counter deepstrike unit as well. Keep em around so they can assault anything that deepstrikes near you. That's a lot of points to tie up in a defense unit though...

Warp talons aren't jet infantry, they're plain old jump. They either get to move 12 inch in the movement OR charge with hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance. They can't do both, let alone move in the assault phase.

As for only being better only against T4 3+, that's not true. Talons will do better vs 4+ too and they'll still do better against those if they have higher toughness. But this is true only if you include shooting, which you might not want to do depending on how far the charge is. In pure melee they're better against anything 3+ or worse. Of course this is assuming you can charge at initiative, which is definitely possible despite not having grenades.
The effort to pull that off and the liability it entails mean that talons just aren't worth the effort and points unless you specifically want to use them. Raptors will just get the job done on their own and can't be crippled in the same way that talons can be. In addition they are more versatile. There is simply no reason to take warp talons unless you have to have them for any given reason. And even with a list that enables you to charge with them at iniative, there is no guaranty that will work. Grenades on the other hand, don't care about pinning or blind, they just work.

Gee guys... I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER BEEN IN THIS THREAD BEFORE

Roknar wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
12"move can be pretty decent when trying to get into charge range. Just cause they can deep strike doesn't mean you always should. With a 12" move plus the thrust move that jet infantry get in the assault phase a clever general should be able to circle around and flank them with the warp talons if there is enough BLOS terrain out there. They would be pretty good counter deepstrike unit as well. Keep em around so they can assault anything that deepstrikes near you. That's a lot of points to tie up in a defense unit though...

Warp talons aren't jet infantry, they're plain old jump. They either get to move 12 inch in the movement OR charge with hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance. They can't do both, let alone move in the assault phase.

As for only being better only against T4 3+, that's not true. Talons will do better vs 4+ too and they'll still do better against those if they have higher toughness. But this is true only if you include shooting, which you might not want to do depending on how far the charge is. In pure melee they're better against anything 3+ or worse. Of course this is assuming you can charge at initiative, which is definitely possible despite not having grenades.
The effort to pull that off and the liability it entails mean that talons just aren't worth the effort and points unless you specifically want to use them. Raptors will just get the job done on their own and can't be crippled in the same way that talons can be. In addition they are more versatile. There is simply no reason to take warp talons unless you have to have them for any given reason. And even with a list that enables you to charge with them at iniative, there is no guaranty that will work. Grenades on the other hand, don't care about pinning or blind, they just work.

Jump Infantry can reach targets just fine. Not including shooting means you're not including another pro of the Raptor: it can actually do something if you don't need them to charge and just want to sit on an objective or something.

 SixT4Pixels wrote:
My friend keeps going on about how powerful the CSM codex is, saying Warp Talons are "the best" melee units in the game, heldrakes being invincible and Daemon Princes are unstoppable. What do you guys think about this? Are chaos really that good?

Your friends needs to face a very competitive Tau, Eldar, or Space Marine list.

Warp Talons are expensive as hell for what they do, and they don't do what they do well. Heldrakes with Baleflamers are still good, but can get shot down fairly easily to the three armies I listed. Daemon Prince have to get into assault to do anything. If they are in flying mode to get close to you, they have to spend a round switching to hover, and THEN a round to finally assault. That's more time to shoot them down.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Roknar wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
12"move can be pretty decent when trying to get into charge range. Just cause they can deep strike doesn't mean you always should. With a 12" move plus the thrust move that jet infantry get in the assault phase a clever general should be able to circle around and flank them with the warp talons if there is enough BLOS terrain out there. They would be pretty good counter deepstrike unit as well. Keep em around so they can assault anything that deepstrikes near you. That's a lot of points to tie up in a defense unit though...

Warp talons aren't jet infantry, they're plain old jump. They either get to move 12 inch in the movement OR charge with hammer of wrath and re-roll charge distance. They can't do both, let alone move in the assault phase.

As for only being better only against T4 3+, that's not true. Talons will do better vs 4+ too and they'll still do better against those if they have higher toughness. But this is true only if you include shooting, which you might not want to do depending on how far the charge is. In pure melee they're better against anything 3+ or worse. Of course this is assuming you can charge at initiative, which is definitely possible despite not having grenades.
The effort to pull that off and the liability it entails mean that talons just aren't worth the effort and points unless you specifically want to use them. Raptors will just get the job done on their own and can't be crippled in the same way that talons can be. In addition they are more versatile. There is simply no reason to take warp talons unless you have to have them for any given reason. And even with a list that enables you to charge with them at iniative, there is no guaranty that will work. Grenades on the other hand, don't care about pinning or blind, they just work.

Jump Infantry can reach targets just fine. Not including shooting means you're not including another pro of the Raptor: it can actually do something if you don't need them to charge and just want to sit on an objective or something.

I was correcting Xerics, who seems to be under the impression that warp talons are jet infantry.

And I wasn't ignoring shooting. I was just saying that, occasionally you want to opt out of shooting lest you risk failing the charge and becoming a sitting duck. It's rare but it does happen. The raptors loose their edge in that case as far as inflicting wounds goes.
Being able to sit on an objective is part of the versatility I mentioned. Although in that case the difference between talons and raptors is marginal unless you happen to be running 2 plasma guns. A couple of bolt pistols isn't exactly the most scary ranged output and they make for an abysmal overwatch. And if they are the ones getting charged, talons win since they can strike at iniative now and the ranged options don't make a difference. Although having said that, I have already managed to lose a chaos lord due to a single melta overwatch shot lol.

Raptors can quite decently hunt tanks though and still assault what's inside. Now that's a huge advantage compared to talons.
Though for OP, we're talking bad vs worse. Sure we can have melta that can get behind a tank, but the top armies don't care about armour value or facing at all. At a distance csm can only dream of. Even in melee where we supposedly excel we get our ass handed to us with the exception of one or two units.

I'm assuming due to him never coming back that this was a troll thread.