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So, a swarm list using the Unending Host detachment from Vraks. Can anyone think of a simple way to get an anti-air defence in here? Unending Host allows every infantry squad of 15 models or more to enter ongoing reserves on a 2+ when it's destroyed. When it comes back, it has all it's original upgrades and enters via Outflank. In addition, any cover saves from intervening models become a 3+.

So, all six squads of infantry run forward, surrounding the Baneblade in the centre, which advances to demolisher range. The Baneblade makes all units within 12" Zealot. Those 90 goons have to be dealt with by the enemy, but when they are they just become late-game objective grabbers. They're backed up by three Vanquishers for anti-tank and two Hellhounds for anti-infantry. The big squad of Plague Zombies stay in the backfield around the Warlord to take up space that might otherwise be deep-striked into. The small squad of mutants are just there because the Detachment requires 4 Troops.

Renegade Command Squad
··2 x Disciple w/ Lasgun, Flak Armour
··1 x Arch Demagogue [Covenant of Nurgle, Flak Armour, Laspistol, Master of the Horde, Warlord]
··1 x Lascannon Team

Plague Zombie Horde
··30 x Plague Zombie

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Lasguns, CCW, 3 Grenade Launchers]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 3 Flamers]

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Lasguns, CCW, 3 Plasmaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 3 Flamers]

Renegade Mutant Rabble
··10 x Mutant w/ Laspistol, CCW

Renegade Hellhound Squadron
··Renegade Hellhound [Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter]
··Renegade Hellhound [Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter]

Renegade Tank Squadron
··Leman Russ Vanquisher [Heavy Bolter, Militia Training]
··Leman Russ Vanquisher [Heavy Bolter, Militia Training]
··Leman Russ Vanquisher [Heavy Bolter, Militia Training]

Renegade Baneblade Super-heavy Tank [2x Lascannon & 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolter]

AA isn't something the heretics prioritized. You could replace the lascannon team with a Flak Missile Launcher, but that wouldn't be enough AA.

A different option is an ADL with a quadgun. Place the Vanquishers behind the line to get cover saves and let the command squad fire the quadgun. Given that RH can take the ADL, which I don't know.

RH offers the very cheap Rapier lascannon. You could replace one Vanquisher with three Rapiers and still have points for the ADL.

RH gets Spawns extremely cheap for a fearless meatwall to cover your infantery or rush key enemy units.

Your infantery is fearless while hugging the Baneblade - but after dying, reincarnating and infiltrating more than 12 inch from the B-blade they will be uncertain worth troops. Maybe add some LD boosters?

Dont use Plasma guns on the infantry squads.
You might need militia training.

According to a TO. When the arch demigogue dies so does the master of the horde ability. I have already started a thread months ago and the consensus is that this interpretation is wrong but that is just how they want to play it becaise that is what it says in the rule book they said. For the life of me can anyone help me prove them wrong?

I'm fairly familiar with AM, but not the specifics of renegades so anyone feel free to correct me. I'm just bored and have 2 cents to offer.

Grenade launchers sound okay, but in the game they suck. Your infantry doesn't have the armour to safely carry plasma. (Statistically, they will all melt before the end of the game.) Hellhounds are a paper tiger, too easy to take down for the points cost. Vanquisher's BS isn't great and greatly reduces their effectiveness. Pie platers or shot volume is where it's at. Demolisher/punisher/eradicator are the better choices, but your selection may be limited idk.

Also, split your vehicle squadrons into separate squadrons if you can. Squads work if you're using buffs like psyker powers or marklights, but no units buffs mean they'd be better off on their own. Extra hits won't get carried over to them and they could mix and match targets as the need arises.

Besides those, solid list. Not many armies have the flexibility to knock out a superheavy and mow through 130 models with a sprinkle of melta/flamers.

e: I guess the renegade hellhound is actually cheaper and 18" torrent instead of 12" according to some FAQ? I also figure they save you the cost of militia training. Maybe not such a bad choice here. Ignore the eradicator suggestion too, in light of the hellhound seizing the anti cover role with the renegades.

Could you add in a secondary R+H detachment to get some hydras in the heavy support slots? Run in individual units if at all possible

Are all these new renegade lists from the new Chaos book black legion?

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Are all these new renegade lists from the new Chaos book black legion?

Nah, its mperial armour 13 or the Siege of vraks second edition.

You need to buy Imperial Armor : Siege of Vraks to get the rules for the Unending Host Detachment and the Purge Detachment.

Thanks for all the help, guys!

superkuf wrote:A different option is an ADL with a quadgun. Place the Vanquishers behind the line to get cover saves and let the command squad fire the quadgun. Given that RH can take the ADL, which I don't know.
Your infantery is fearless while hugging the Baneblade - but after dying, reincarnating and infiltrating more than 12 inch from the B-blade they will be uncertain worth troops. Maybe add some LD boosters?

I think the ADL is a good call. The Unending Host detachment requires 4 Troops, but only gets 1 HS and FA, so taking Rapiers would replace all my tanks - it's still an option as their AT is probably almost as good as the vanquishers, but they might have a 'running away' problem!!

Agreed that the Ld issue might surface later in the game - giving them Sigils is the only option, but this would lose special weapon slots!

Grief wrote:Dont use Plasma guns on the infantry squads. You might need militia training.
According to a TO. When the arch demigogue dies so does the master of the horde ability. I have already started a thread months ago and the consensus is that this interpretation is wrong but that is just how they want to play it becaise that is what it says in the rule book they said. For the life of me can anyone help me prove them wrong?

"Whenever a Renegade Infantry Squad bought as part of the same army as a Demagogue with this devotion, and numbering at least 15 models at the start of the game, is removed from play as a casualty, or flees off the table....."

They've gone to great lengths here to specify that the ability is contingent on the Infantry unit being bought as part of the same army, not the Warlord being on the table. Furthermore, if it's contingent on the Warlord being alive, this would not work for any of the other devotions - your Ordnance Tyrant allows Bombards as Elites but if he dies they become illegal choices?

Agreed, the plasma squad might need training. I don't care if they die after one volley, though - more likelihood that the squad comes back from the sides!!

slip wrote:Grenade launchers sound okay, but in the game they suck. Your infantry doesn't have the armour to safely carry plasma. (Statistically, they will all melt before the end of the game.) Hellhounds are a paper tiger, too easy to take down for the points cost. Vanquisher's BS isn't great and greatly reduces their effectiveness. Pie platers or shot volume is where it's at. Demolisher/punisher/eradicator are the better choices, but your selection may be limited idk.

Also, split your vehicle squadrons into separate squadrons if you can. Squads work if you're using buffs like psyker powers or marklights, but no units buffs mean they'd be better off on their own. Extra hits won't get carried over to them and they could mix and match targets as the need arises.

I was mainly looking at Vanquishers because of the ranged anti-tank - I guess I could give them coaxial stubbers, which would massively increase my chances of hitting with them? Otherwise, yes, I could replace them with Demolishers, but then I'm relying on the three Demolisher Cannons in the list as anti-tank. With this detachment I have one HS and one FA, so they'll always be one squadron. Other options are to replace all three with a squad of Rapiers or take Leman Russ Annihilators (TL Lascannon turrets).

Hellhounds don't have any advantages over the IG ones apart from being 115pts as they don't need Militia Training. Other options in that slot are Arvus Lighters (crap) or taking six Sentinels...

DoomMouse wrote:Could you add in a secondary R+H detachment to get some hydras in the heavy support slots? Run in individual units if at all possible

Yup, could do. Presumably I'd lose the Vanquishers to achieve this? Hell, if I'm doing that I might as well take a CSM detachment and field my Hell Blades...

Yes, rock the coaxial stubbers if you are intent on rolling vanquishers. With all that though you're looking at like 450 points of tank for 3 S8 AP2 armourbane shots. That actually kinda sucks. They can't split fire can they? So they're capped at one vehicle per turn at best. A vet squad in chimera would be what, a third of that an just as effective as all three tanks combined? Or maybe a unit of 3 TL S9 AP1 ordinance rapier lasers for <80 points.

NEW LIST - Ok, lots of suggestions taken on board. The two Leman Russ can be any sort that is most useful. I still have 20 points left, and I can swap around special weapons in the two Infantry platoons get a few more (maybe no plasma?). I could use these points to give the second command squad more of a role, or improve morale with some banners or something??

Renegades of Vraks - Unending Host Detachment

Renegade Command Squad
··2 x Disciple w/ Lasgun, Flak Armour
··1 x Arch Demagogue [Covenant of Nurgle, Flak Armour, Laspistol, Master of the Horde, Warlord]
··1 x Lascannon Team

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Lasguns, CCW, 3 Grenade Launchers]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 3 Flamers]

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Lasguns, CCW, 3 Plasmaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 3 Flamers]

Plague Zombie Horde
··20 x Plague Zombie

Plague Zombie Horde
··20 x Plague Zombie

Renegade Tank Squadron
··Leman Russ Battle Tank
··Leman Russ Battle Tank

Renegade Baneblade Super-heavy Tank [2x Lascannon & 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Militia Training]


Renegades & Heretics - Combined Arms Detachment

Renegade Command Squad
··4 x Disciple w/ Lasgun, Flak Armour
··1 x Arch Demagogue [Flak Armour, Laspistol]

Mutant Rabble
··10 x Mutant Rabble

Mutant Rabble
··10 x Mutant Rabble

Renegade Rapier Battery
··3 x Rapier Laser Destroyers (Additional Crew, Militia Training)

Renegade Hydra Battery
··Hydra (Militia Training)
··Hydra (Militia Training)

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 Bignob wrote:
List looks good. Curious if shotguns are a good choice over lasguns.

It's mostly just to I can differentiate squads!!

Just had a 'dodgy rule' thought - the Vraks Warlord has a Devotion of Nurgle, which means 'the army' can take Plague Zombie squads as troops. Now, what does 'the army' refer to? Just his detachment, or the whole army? If it's the whole army, then all the Mutant Rabbles become Plague Zombies!!!

NEW TWEAKS!

- Minimised the Plague Zombies in favour of more re-generating Infantry. The Flamer platoon go in front as mobile cover for the Meltas. The Flamer squads have Sigils as they're likely to get out of range of the Baneblade quickly, and also be the first ones to Outflank back onto the board. The Melta squads have Militia training. The third platoon are just to hold in my deployment zone. The three squads of Zombies go in reserve, ready to plug gaps in the deployment zone when things start being taken off and appearing from the sides.

- One Leman Russ swapped for a second Rapier Team. The other one upgraded to a super-killy Executioner.

- Both Command Squads are now basically Autocannon teams. The two Arch-Demagogues join the Rapier teams to bolster morale and fire a gun at BS4. The Tzeentch one means one team will be hitting flyers on a TL 5+.


Renegades of Vraks - Unending Host Detachment

Renegade Command Squad
··2 x Disciple w/ Lasgun, Flak Armour
··1 x Arch Demagogue [Covenant of Nurgle, Flak Armour, Laspistol, Master of the Horde, Warlord]
··1 x Autocannon Team

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [Militia Training, Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Militia Training, Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Militia Training, Krak Grenades, 12 Shotguns, CCW, 3 Meltaguns]

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 2 Flamers, Chaos Sigil]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 2 Flamers, Chaos Sigil]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [Krak Grenades, 12 Laspistols, CCW, 2 Flamers, Chaos Sigil]

Renegade Infantry Platoon
··Platoon Command Squad - 15 x Renegades [14 Lasguns, CCW, Grenade Launcher]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [14 Lasguns, CCW, Grenade Launcher]
··Renegade Infantry Squad - 15 x Renegades [14 Lasguns, CCW, Grenade Launcher]

Plague Zombie Horde
··10 x Plague Zombie

Renegade Rapier Battery
··3 x Rapier Laser Destroyers (Additional Crew, Militia Training)

Renegade Baneblade Super-heavy Tank [2x Lascannon & 2x Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Militia Training]


Renegades & Heretics - Combined Arms Detachment

Renegade Command Squad
··2 x Disciple w/ Lasgun, Flak Armour
··1 x Arch Demagogue [Flak Armour, Laspistol, Covenant of Tzeentch]
··1 x Autocannon Team

Plague Zombie Horde
··10 x Plague Zombie

Plague Zombie Horde
··10 x Plague Zombie

Renegade Rapier Battery
··3 x Rapier Laser Destroyers (Additional Crew, Militia Training)

Renegade Hydra Battery
··Hydra (Militia Training)
··Hydra (Militia Training)

Rengade Tank Squadron
··Leman Russ Executioner (Plasma Sponsons, Lascannon, Extra Armour)

Rapiers are Ordinance. No snapshots allowed. Sorry, but you don't get excellent AT and AA from the same unit.

In a Horde list you must press the opponent - leaving 1/3 of your infantery (the very reason you play a Horde list) behind is a no-no. Your opponent should simply not have time to send forces into your territory (and if he turboboost an unit last turn the platoon that stayed behind would probably not be able to do anything about it.

So move the points into offensive. More squads for platoon 1 and 2? Mutants with a LD boost? Deep striking veterans?

Zombies are too slow for "plugging gaps". Either you send the zombies forward turn 1 or you have them guarding your artillery/HQ/whatever against deep strikers/outflankers. And the bigger unit the better.

I mentioned Spawns before, and will do it again. 3 Spawns for less than the price of 2 Spawns in other armies. Bulletcatchers, fast interdiction, assault units - a very cost efficient unit. And there are some MC Spawns in the Heavy section that could provide cover for your Baneblade+fotsloggers the first turns.

Artillery is your friend in a R&H list. Use the big guns to compensate for what the rest of the army lacks. Thudd guns for anti-infantery work? Medusas with breacher shells to bring the hammer down on everything (within range)? Wywerns to teach players to not relie on cover saves?

superkuf wrote:
Rapiers are Ordinance. No snapshots allowed. Sorry, but you don't get excellent AT and AA from the same unit.

In a Horde list you must press the opponent - leaving 1/3 of your infantery (the very reason you play a Horde list) behind is a no-no. Your opponent should simply not have time to send forces into your territory (and if he turboboost an unit last turn the platoon that stayed behind would probably not be able to do anything about it.

So move the points into offensive. More squads for platoon 1 and 2? Mutants with a LD boost? Deep striking veterans?

Zombies are too slow for "plugging gaps". Either you send the zombies forward turn 1 or you have them guarding your artillery/HQ/whatever against deep strikers/outflankers. And the bigger unit the better.

I mentioned Spawns before, and will do it again. 3 Spawns for less than the price of 2 Spawns in other armies. Bulletcatchers, fast interdiction, assault units - a very cost efficient unit. And there are some MC Spawns in the Heavy section that could provide cover for your Baneblade+fotsloggers the first turns.

Artillery is your friend in a R&H list. Use the big guns to compensate for what the rest of the army lacks. Thudd guns for anti-infantery work? Medusas with breacher shells to bring the hammer down on everything (within range)? Wywerns to teach players to not relie on cover saves?

Gah! OK, no need for the Tzeentch covenant, then. I'll keep him in the Rapier squad to give them a morale boost though.

Good point about the speed of the zombies. You're right, it's better to use them as bubble wrap for my hydras and rapiers, or to take up deep striking space. I can certainly sent the third platoon forward (there's no benefit to putting all the squads in one bigger platoon). It's just I imagine they'll be the third wave, and given the amount of models in the deployment zone, they won't be engaging until Turn 3 or 4, by which point I hope to have outflanks arriving too. But yes, totally get your point about keeping up pressure.

Spawn are good, I agree, and big enough to give cover to the Baneblade. However, did FW ever clear up the working over their 'Master of Renegades' interaction? Both books list them as Elites that may only be selected with the Master of Renegades rule. Vraks then doesn't give the option to unlock them at all, and IA13 unlocks them as troops with a Tzeentch covenant.

Agreed again on artillery, but what would you lose in the list for that? I currently have all HS slots filled. I'd have to lose the Executioner or one of the Rapier units. At the moment it seems like there is a lot of anti-horde (Baneblade, billions of small arms) and a fair amount of anti-tank (Rapiers, Baneblade) and a bit of anti-air (Hydras). I figured the executioner would be good as an anti-MEQ/TEQ unit. However I could certainly replace this with Earthshakers, for example...

 ArbitorIan wrote:


Spawn are good, I agree, and big enough to give cover to the Baneblade. However, did FW ever clear up the working over their 'Master of Renegades' interaction? Both books list them as Elites that may only be selected with the Master of Renegades rule. Vraks then doesn't give the option to unlock them at all, and IA13 unlocks them as troops with a Tzeentch covenant.

I've seen an email that someone posted supposedly from Forgeworld that said the restriction is a mistake. As it seems to be so clearly an error when I've a TO before they are fine to allow the spawn the be taken as an elites choice. Even if you try to interpret it RAW it says:

"May only be selected through the Master of Renegades special rule"

Without any guidance on how this selection is made I would argue that simply having the Master of Renegades special rule allows the Spawn to be selected, and you gain the special rule by having the Demagogue be your Warlord.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Agreed again on artillery, but what would you lose in the list for that? I currently have all HS slots filled. I'd have to lose the Executioner or one of the Rapier units. At the moment it seems like there is a lot of anti-horde (Baneblade, billions of small arms) and a fair amount of anti-tank (Rapiers, Baneblade) and a bit of anti-air (Hydras). I figured the executioner would be good as an anti-MEQ/TEQ unit. However I could certainly replace this with Earthshakers, for example...

Have you considered spamming Leman Russ Conquerors? 110pts (so cheaper than a hellhound!) for an AV14 fast vehicle with a st8 ap3 small blast which means you don't need militia training. I feel like 6 Conquerors ( or even more, why not?) racing up and down supporting you massed infantry would be really effective. Take the Unending horde detachment as your primary detachment, then take a Purge detachment with Spawn as the required elites and Conquerors in Heavy Support. Not many armies can deal with massed infantry and massed armour.

I'd personally ignore anti-air, just take more spawn or more infantry.

Krak grenades are only one use per phase even in combat. So you cant have 15 krak str 6 ap4 attacks in melee.

It is simply not worth the 10pts for a single str6 ap4 attack in melee.

Grief wrote:
Krak grenades are only one use per phase even in combat. So you cant have 15 krak str 6 ap4 attacks in melee.

It is simply not worth the 10pts for a single str6 ap4 attack in melee.

I thought about that!

Confirmed with the tournament organisers - they're NOT using the 'draft' FAQ, as it came out too close to the tournament date.

I doubly confirmed that they will be playing that only one may be thrown but each model can use one in assault - like everyone has been playing anyway. Hopefully the 'real' FAQ will amend this as it's caused a bit of uproar...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pyrrhus wrote:
Have you considered spamming Leman Russ Conquerors? 110pts (so cheaper than a hellhound!) for an AV14 fast vehicle with a st8 ap3 small blast which means you don't need militia training. I feel like 6 Conquerors ( or even more, why not?) racing up and down supporting you massed infantry would be really effective. Take the Unending horde detachment as your primary detachment, then take a Purge detachment with Spawn as the required elites and Conquerors in Heavy Support. Not many armies can deal with massed infantry and massed armour.

I'd personally ignore anti-air, just take more spawn or more infantry.

Interesting - I might mock up a couple of lists. At the moment, I was leaning towards Undending Host and The Purge, with all the artillery in the Purge, and spawn as you say. Might post two alternate lists for comparison.