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So beginning to assemble my BaC marines, here's what I'm thinking.
For now I opt to go PotL and Veterans simply because I don't have enough to do large tac sqds anyway. However, vets get so expensive for 3+ PA marines!
10 Vets, 2 HB w acid rounds, vexilla, Vet sgt with calibanite blade, art armour, combi-gren w stasis. 295pts!!
Since these guys all have blades, and with their special rule for hitting on 3s with equal WS (plus stasis shell possibility allowing them to strike before normal tacs) it seems they should be geared for close combat. With that being the case, I think Furious Charge would be the better Vet skill, right? Hitting first, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, should give me a slight edge, no?
Also, with so many points invested in just 10 dudes, a rhino seems almost mandatory.
Am I approaching this wrong? Seems like an awful amount of points to invest in 10 dudes. I do like the HBs with acid rounds, as being assault 3 at 18", and if I roll a 1 or 2 for their AP, it gives me a chance to kill that Art armour vet leading enemy sqds hoping to tank shots.
Anyway, my plan was to have 2 of these in rhinos, but that's already 660pts for base rhinos.
welcome to the core problem with running PotL as your core
as for your vets, if you are gonna go heavy on them, you will probably need rhinos so they don't die en mass (since they already are a glass cannon squad), Furious charge would be fun, though maybe look into fearless as well, since that would come in handy against certain units and legions.
maybe go tacticals, and build like this instead:
HQ Praetor
Centurion
Troops 15-man tactical squad
10-man tactical squad
(expand both of these later?)
Elites 5-man cataphractii terminators w/ p. fist and combi-grenade launchers (maybe P. weapon if you can get the bits?)
1 contemptor w/ kheres/fist
Heavy Support 5-man Heavy Support squad w/ ML or Heavy bolters
this way you get your stasis rounds, have an easier platform to expand from, and don't have to deal with the stupid costs or limitations of a PotL list with vets. This is not to say vets. are terrible, but they seem to shien better as support rather than your core line infantry.
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
Dont use vets as line infantry at all. You will hurt yourself in the long run. To be honest calth is best bought in groups, two calth boxes lets you build enough marines for a heavy bolter squad a ml squad 2 x vet squads and a 20 man tac squad so that you can run them as 2 x 20 tacs, you also have enough marines left over to make support squads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you are gonna use vets you cant march forward into fire which essentially limits you to deffence for a couple of turns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 14:48:27
What Rite of War do you think you'd eventually expand into with the DA?
Personally I'd use the BaC contents to start building towards the Ironwing. Build two 10 man Tactical Squads, and then split the remaining 10 into Support Squads. Probably wont be as effective as Bren's suggestion of the 15 and a 10, but two 10's you can fit into Rhinos. And eventually fill in Heavy Support with the additional tanks you'd need.
I don't like either of the first Rites of War (already play ravenwing so don't want to repeat in 30K and Ironwing doesn't interest me), but I assume DAs will get better ones when expanded.
as for not running vets, does it really hurt me in the short term? I can always expand to tacticals later, it's not like their weapons change. For now, it allows me to use what I have and be a legal list. It's just really hard for me to get my head around a sqd of 20 tactical marines that has no special weapon of any kind. Granted, massed bolter fire can be effective, but there's a lot that can ignore this. I tend to play small elite armies anyway, and not blobs (was originally going to play DG where blobs would have been fine!) so the idea of running around with veterans appeals to me.
As for the terminators, I already converted the character to have a blade (just removed chainfist and replaced with a large blade). I was planning on giving all terminators a blade but realized I need some AP2 in the list somewhere.
As it stands, I'm trying to get the use out of the DAs rules (to be fluffy) so that's why I'm including calibanite blades, stasis grenade launchers, acid Hvy bolters and will have a Terranic greatsword on leader.
Your army bud, but you're probably gonna be waiting a year or two for the rest of the army. If having only one beneficial rule for your army is fine with you than ok. Still do small squads and shove them in Drop Pods with Orbital Assault?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:29:54
I wouldn't count on many more legion specific RoWs (as I don't see them going beyond 2 or 3 max for most all of the legions), and you WILL be waiting a long while for them.
Vets. through PotL does more harm than good. when all of your squishy small squads die, your opponent gets bonus VPs (which pairs well with the fact that if they have more men standing, they get EVEN MORE VPs). Vets. don't have the durability (even with a rhino) or fire power to be an effective core.
as for tactical squads: get out of the 40k mind set of special weapons Give them all extra CCWs and now you can demolish most other marines in Close combat, you have the numbers to take heavy losses without much negative effect (compare loosing 5 vets. to 5 tactical marines), you can bring them without using an iffy RoW, and even with massed bolters, they do an amazing job.
Small elite armies can work in 30k, though they need to be durable, and they need decent fire power: something that vet. tacticals cannot really do. The DA RoWs could help you out: ravenwing for low model count CC beasties (rad grenades are really fun en masse), and Ironwing's buffs to tanks and close quarters shooting are also nice.
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
I forgot about the rule for extra VPs for having less units at end of game. Combine that with PotL and I could get in a hole quick (although if I've lost both vet sqds and the term sqd, I probably have lost anyway). Right now our group is playing 1500pts.
It would be possible to take 2 10 man tac sqds with extra ccws and tricked out sgt (although he can't get combi-gren launcher AND calibanite blade) leaving me with enough points to get a 5 man hvy sqd with acid round HBs. Not sure if that is much better tbh. Would allow me to go orbital assault perhaps.
Here is what I quickly put together with original idea...
HQ Praetor, cataphract term arm, terranic greatsword, digi-lasers, combi-gren w stasis 177
10 man vet, 2 HB w acid, vexilla, vet sgt - art arm, combi-gren w stasis, cal blade 295
rhino, dozer 40
10 man vet, 2 HB w acid, vexilla, vet sgt - art arm, combi-gren w stasis, cal blade 295
rhino, dozer 40
5 cataphract term sqd, 3 calibanite blades, gren harness, 2 chainfists 205
Contemptor dread, kheres assault, Hvy flamer 200
Sicaran, las, ceramite 195
1447pts, leaving me enough to add maybe a rapier laser destroyer (what are stats of this btw...surely cannot be the same one as the vindicator?)
other options include dropping 1 vet w HB and replacing him with apothecary (lose the FP of the acid HB for 5+ FNP). Could do this to both sqds.
I'll see if I can draw up a different list with tac marines instead.
1) You can give regular tac. sergeants a special melee weapon + a combi-weapon no issue.
2) the list looks passable, but it's still super fragile. Also, from what I've seen, you gotta put the warblades on characters, so you can't have 3 in the terminator squad, though I could be wrong. As for a list maybe this:
Spoiler:
+++ New Roster (1500pts) +++
++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (1500pts) ++
+ HQ (175pts) +
Legion Praetor (175pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Digital Lasers, Grenade Harness, Terranic Greatsword]
+ Troops (530pts) +
Legion Tactical Squad (270pts) [14x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
··Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Calibanite War Blade, Combi-Weapon]
Legion Tactical Squad (260pts) [9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade]
··Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier [Havoc Launcher]
··Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Calibanite War Blade, Combi-Weapon]
Legion Terminator Squad (240pts) [2x Chainfist, 4x Combi-Weapon, 4x Legion Terminators, Tartaros Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon]
··Legion Terminator Sergeant [Calibanite War Blade, Combi-Weapon, Grenade Harness]
+ Heavy Support (345pts) +
Legion Heavy Support Squad (170pts) [4x Legion Space Marines, Molecular Acid Shells]
··Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour]
Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (175pts) [Lascannons]
+ Legion +
Legion Astartes [I: Dark Angels, Loyalist]
the combi-weapons are grenade launchers, and overall, this is easier to expand from, you have more durability (though I would find a way to fit in an apothecary or console once you grow), and your heavy bolters can be used to their fullest extent.
Alternativley: fit a plasma-repeater support squad in a rhino and melt some termies
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 16:30:57
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
1) unless you swapped his gun for something, you've got 5 meltas in that support squad, though if you're gonna have them in a rhino, I'd think about swapping to those repeaters, since tons of AP: 2 shots is silly
2) since you're seemingly going mechanized, you may want to pick up a simple transport for your terminators
3) I'd keep the praetor. while also a buff (through RoWs) he's also a stabby beast
4) from the red book: "the legion tactical squad's sergeant may exchange their bolter and/or chainsword for one of the following: ....."
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
1) unless you swapped his gun for something, you've got 5 meltas in that support squad, though if you're gonna have them in a rhino, I'd think about swapping to those repeaters, since tons of AP: 2 shots is silly
He's only got 4 Meltas shown in that list out of the 5 required.
2) since you're seemingly going mechanized, you may want to pick up a simple transport for your terminators
Yes he should.
3) I'd keep the praetor. while also a buff (through RoWs) he's also a stabby beast
At the very least he should have a Delegatus
4) from the red book: "the legion tactical squad's sergeant may exchange their bolter and/or chainsword for one of the following: ....."
Yep.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 17:20:17
While the extra attack and furious charge is good, most of the things you will want to charge with the Vets or will charge the Vets will destroy them due to lack of numbers.
A 20 man Tac Squad might only be hitting on 4s against them, but they will still have 2 attacks a piece standing still. And if you are moving into charge range they will have used FotL against you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 17:27:07
in the list I'm looking at (Book 1), it has the support sqd having the special weapons on the marines only, the sgt has different weapons (ccw/bp). That's why I only upgraded 4, as that's all there are (unless this has also changed)
Delagatus? not sure what this is.
I think I will eventually get a transport for the terms, but points are low right now so no big rush.
I may try the larger tac sqds in the meantime, just to avoid buying rhinos maybe put 1 in a rhino. (so 15 + 10 in rhino)
that would probably be the best pattern: the 15 gun stuff down/advance slowly, and the 10 are for objective grabbing/area stalling. just remember that dark angels, while good in CC, are not CC beasts. As to the book 1 issue: you can swap the sergeants special weapon away, but he always has one base, and it's the same as the rest of the squad.
delegatus is a book 6 console that gives you the ability to take rights of war. They are okay, I like praetors more though.
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
The Delegatus is in Book 6 and the FWFAQ from January. He's essentially the discount Praetor, you take him if you want to save points from the HQ section but still be able to take RoW. He also allows RoW to be used under 1k points and has a special RoW that allows Vet Tactical as troops.
Brennonjw wrote: that would probably be the best pattern: the 15 gun stuff down/advance slowly, and the 10 are for objective grabbing/area stalling. just remember that dark angels, while good in CC, are not CC beasts. As to the book 1 issue: you can swap the sergeants special weapon away, but he always has one base, and it's the same as the rest of the squad.
.
I'm confused though, as I'm looking at Book 1 now and the support sqd has the following equipment: power armour, flamers (space marines only), bolt pistol, combat blade or chainsword (sergeant only), frag and krak grens. This indicates a sgt with bp and ccw, then 4 marines with flamers.
Brennonjw wrote: that would probably be the best pattern: the 15 gun stuff down/advance slowly, and the 10 are for objective grabbing/area stalling. just remember that dark angels, while good in CC, are not CC beasts. As to the book 1 issue: you can swap the sergeants special weapon away, but he always has one base, and it's the same as the rest of the squad.
.
I'm confused though, as I'm looking at Book 1 now and the support sqd has the following equipment: power armour, flamers (space marines only), bolt pistol, combat blade or chainsword (sergeant only), frag and krak grens. This indicates a sgt with bp and ccw, then 4 marines with flamers.
Legions astarted crusade list red book has them all with flamers, and the sergeant may swap his special weapon for a CCW or bolter + augury scanner.
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
Brennonjw wrote: that would probably be the best pattern: the 15 gun stuff down/advance slowly, and the 10 are for objective grabbing/area stalling. just remember that dark angels, while good in CC, are not CC beasts. As to the book 1 issue: you can swap the sergeants special weapon away, but he always has one base, and it's the same as the rest of the squad.
.
I'm confused though, as I'm looking at Book 1 now and the support sqd has the following equipment: power armour, flamers (space marines only), bolt pistol, combat blade or chainsword (sergeant only), frag and krak grens. This indicates a sgt with bp and ccw, then 4 marines with flamers.
Legions astarted crusade list red book has them all with flamers, and the sergeant may swap his special weapon for a CCW or bolter + augury scanner.
so what you're saying is, I really need to get this red book!
You deffinetly need to have access to it yes, i would not suggest buying it as its almost certainly getting updated this year.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the Delegatus, he is amazing, you get to take vet squads as compulsory troops but dont need to take them so 1 fully kitted out in a rhino and a 20 man tac is awesome, another awesome choice is the new standard bearer consul as he gets master of the legion and has to be general but he cant be the compulsory HQ so you need to take someone else to fill that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 21:34:41
You only get to take Vet Squads as troops if you take his Specific RoW. Which most of the time, you probably wouldn't be using. But for your army would probably work fine.
Also King Amroth, you do need to take 2 Veteran Tactical Squads if you run the Chosen Duty RoW available only to the Delegatus. It says as much in the entry.
