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Hello Everyone!

My first post on Dakka Dakka came at the suggestion of a local game store owner when I was chatting with him about a small project of mine I am preparing to start. I have recently found myself with a great deal of free time and want to get back into the practice of creative writing. To ease into it I decided I wanted to write in someone else's sandbox solely for my own benefit/enjoyment/sanity with no intent to publish or pester, etc. As such I am in the outlining phase now, but wanted to get some neutral webbernets input on some concepts and some clarification on things in the 40k Lore.

So here is on half of the seed that has been driving the concept:

"The Lost Primarchs." Now admittedly, I've maybe fourtyish percent of the Horus Heresy Series (I just finished Deathfire yesterday and have started on Vengeful Spirit this morning) which from what I can gather no where does it definitively state that Leman Russ and the Vlka Fenryka exterminated the other two legions. (I believe the closest to what happened came from a conversation between Dorn and Malcador in which the latter stated "They are lost to us forever)

Now I do know that in the books covering the Burning of Prospero there is numerable mentions that this is not the first time he's been called to perform this duty for the Emperor, that being said He did give Magnus every chance he could within his code of honor to give him an excuse to prevent it (From what I understand) via that puppet remembrancer the Wolves restored. Seeing as this age of gods and myths lent itself to the incredible, I've been toying with the concept that Russ was sent to sanction the XI Legion/Primarch, succeeded in a way, which then prompted the II Legion\Primarch to take his Legion and perhaps elements of the XI out into the Galactic East beyond the light of the Astronomicon either in protest or perhaps to avoid Russ's censure.

The other half of the seed flashes forward to the 42nd Millennium, perhaps about 300 years in. Cadia has fallen and a Black Crusade (14th? or 15th?) has begun in earnest. The Golden Throne's entropic damage, The Emperor's frayed mind combined with the tumult in the warp as been causing the Astronomicon to "Flicker" making Warp Travel difficult. My goal with this set up is to create a galactic event that the Imperium views as a repeat to the Beast event in terms of severity if not more so, but is not entirely helpless to resist. On the large scale I see Abaddon's force making progress towards Terra, but not "quickly." Given this backdrop, I am toying with a set of characters belonging to a Rogue Trader Dynasty, far from the glut of the conflict, excavating (Plundering, they are plundering) a newly discovered world that is covered in prefabricated cities harkening back to the Great Crusade, but with no population. It's here that these characters would eventually embark upon their journey to find the Lost Primarch(s) and their Legions.

That being listed these are my questions/input requests and given that this is a personal project for fun, I do genuinely appreciate anyone taking the time to chime in on the content above and below this line.
(I put the questions/Inputs in a format that makes it easy to quote below)

-Question: When Horus went back in time/vision back in time and damaged a Primarch's growth chamber, what number was it?
-Question: Is Roboute Guilliman dead already? Or was he placed in Stasis quickly enough that he's half-moments from dying?
-Question: By extension, how long was Rogal Dorn dead before his corpse was placed in stasis?
-Question: When Fabius Bile resurrected Eidolon and Lucius was this an act of his own medical genius, warp-craft or perhaps a mix of both?
-Question: The city like structures on the back of Imperial Ships (And Chaos by extension) are these in fact cities full of the ships personnel and families?
-Question: The Rite of Pure Thought, is it an absolutism? And is it needed to progress up the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Reference would Archmagos Kotov created by Graham McNeill, he didn't seem very clear-thoughty to me.
-Question: How long did the Great Crusade Last? (From what I can gather between 200 and 300 years)
-Question: How many of the Primarch's are Psyker's exactly? Magnus was always known and to my knowledge Lorgar, Mortarion, and Fulgrim all gained such powers later? Is the potential in all Primarchs?


-Input Needed: If a Crusade Era fleet was to have left long before the onset of the Heresy, Do you think it's composition would be more of the old "Grand Cruiser" types than the newer armored prow types?
-Input Needed: I'm concerned about writing a "Primarch" I've played a great deal of Deathwatch/Black Crusade so I am comfortable easing into the mindset of an Astartes, but wary of that of a Primarch. Any input here is very desirable even if it's only for a specific one.
-Input Needed: How far would an Inquisitor tolerate a Rogue Traders...Rogue-trader-ness if said Rogue Trader's remit was one of the originals issued by the Emperor himself? I'm not talking Chaos Based Heresy, more along the lines of using Xenotech.
-Input Needed: In your opinion, how would the Imperium react to the return of a Primarch? One that was previously unknown? I'm especially curious to how people think various Astartes Chapters would react.
-Input Needed: How advanced was Cloning technology within the Imperium around the time of Heresy's outbreak? (Not counting Fabius) From what I gather, it could grow a fairly powerful human quickly, but could it ensure they were a Psyker?
-Input Needed: The Lost Primarch I am envisioning would have been especially close to Horus, Guilliman, Magnus, Peturbo and perhaps Fulgrim over shared interests. Would he be instantly distrusted by a living primarch such as Corax, Vulkan or Russ?
-Input Needed: How radical could the Warp alter a primarch when they were scattered? Sanguinius had Wings, Alpharus and Omegalon became two, Kruze got his future vision(?), How far could that change go before it "ceased" to be a Primarch at all in the Emperor's eyes?

Thank you so much for your input ahead of time!

1. I believe it was eleven.
2. Roboute is moments from dying, if he was ever taken out of stasis he would die.
3. Rogal Dorn was never put into stasis, he is missing.
4. I have not read about this, can you link the story?
5. I think that those 'cities' on the back of 40k ships are in fact temples/churches where space marines go to worship the Emperor. (That is why several ships have stained glass windows on the back)
6. Many things in the imperium are required as an 'absolute' but you tend to find that the rules start to bend the further up the ranks you go.
7. About 207 years
8. AFAIK Magnus, Lorgar, Corax and Sanguinius were the only primarch with any real psychic abilities. Many of the others had traces psychic powers (because they're primarchs) but they weren't full psykers.


1. Yes.
2. It should be pretty similar to writing a legion. Just focus on one aspect of the emperor they have inhereted i.e. Angron's anger, Magnus' psychic abilities, Vulkan's perpetuality etc.
3. The inqisition would probably not even know of the emperor's traders because of destroyed data. So they would react in the same way they would react to any rogue trader.
4. Knowing the imperium they would probably denounce them as a heretic for impersonating a primarch in order to keep the lost legions secret.
5. Sorry i don't know.
6. Depending on when (if) Russ 'sanctioned' the primarch he may not even have met Horus, Guiliman etc. However, if he had met them, I think surviving primarchs would be more mistrusting of him depending on what he was sanctioned for.
7. As long as they were recognisably human and thei mind was still in tact (and none heretical) the emperor would be fine with it.

Hope that helped, please let us know when you are done with your story.

Reintroducing primarchs is a risky idea, imo. A huge part of the grimdark in 40k is the absence of guidance from any kind of authority, leaving men and astartes alone in a big, hostile galaxy. As soon as a loyal primarch arrives, that changes significantly, and potentially alters the whole tone of the background. I'm not trying to discourage you at all, but it is something to bear in mind whilst you are writing. The whole point of the vagary around the missing primarchs is to encourage exactly this sort of creativity. I'd imagine as well that if one turned up, the 7 daemon primarchs would soon be chasing him.

Keep us posted

I will add a bit, skipping the points that mrhappyface already covered sufficiently.

3. They inscribe the name of new Chapter Masters in the hand bones of Rogal Dorn (only one hand), they never found the rest of his body.
4. Seeing as how Eidolon had been beheaded, this is surely a mix of both as this was not seen before. Fabius Bile might be good, but it took a good while before the head or body were even treated by him, iirc they partied using Eidolon's head so... Same goes for Lucius, he was killed on a planet with no quick access to medical facilities.
5. The spires house the more key structures such as the bridge and shrines, where the body of the ship holds the engine, weapon batteries etc. Its also a design choice for the look of 40k, not necessarily a practical idea.
8. Cruze had visions of the future, so he was 'gifted' with powers too.

3. Similar, it depends if they still possessed the original Warrant of Trade given by the Emperor, most likely a holy relic that has been preserved. It also depends on the extent of heresy that has taken place. Is its use beneficial to the Imperium and would the inquisition allow it? Or is it only for personal gain etc. etc. It really depends.
4. They have dealt with false leaders and delusional human empires before. This 'returned Primarch' is nothing more than a heretic who should relinquish whatever human empire he possessed and turn himself to the inquisition for purity testing. If he returns alone, it avoids a war, if he returns with Xenos then its kill on sight. Astartes would most likely side with the Imperium on this. They had their own Primarchs, they have trouble enough with other Chapters as is in some cases, let alone an unknown Primarch. They have no reason to side with some unknown entity.
5. Its difficult to say if they could grow someone as a Psyker, as that would require a soul with a warp connection (unclear how that works with cloning). But they had the ability to create Culexus assassins without souls, blanks.
6. Being close to a traitor Primarch would not be an instant reason to be distrusted. At the onset of the HH more were close that eventually stood on opposing sides. The reason any Primarch would be distrusted is his absence over the years, and why he didn't return to defend the Imperium during the HH. Even if he was sanctioned (unless its heretic "burn him" levels bad), not coming back during the greatest time of need would surely be looked down upon, it might have even prevented the Emperor's death (just for arguments sake).

Thank you for all the input! I can't wait to read more!

This is helping a great deal with the outline process. Especially the clarification of Rogal Dorn and that he is missing presumed dead.I am curious if the same interest can be applied to the Khan?

mrhappyfacewrote:

4. I have not read about this, can you link the story?

I don't have a link to the story, but I do believe it was the novel Angel Exterminatus.

In regards to the Inquisition's tolerance of Rogue Trader's use of Xenotech, I was toying with the idea of the Rogue Trader's vessel making use of a Xenodevice that vastly empowers her Navigator, allowing her to find quick, safe passage through the Warp and keep track of the Astronomicon at great distances. Beyond this I imagine the Rogue Trader may have a cache of Xenotech onboard that was for intended sale to the Adeptus Mechanicus or other parties within the Imperium, Eldar Weapons, Samples of Wraithbone, Tau Technology, etc.

From what I can gather from the comments and the Rogue Trader RPG source books, Unless it was a die hard puritan Inquisitor, the Rogue Trader might just get dirty looks in this case, maybe?

 VictorVeneratus wrote:
I am curious if the same interest can be applied to the Khan?

Khan is lost too, with some rumours that he was captured by the Dark Eldar.

 VictorVeneratus wrote:
In regards to the Inquisition's tolerance of Rogue Trader's use of Xenotech, I was toying with the idea of the Rogue Trader's vessel making use of a Xenodevice that vastly empowers her Navigator, allowing her to find quick, safe passage through the Warp and keep track of the Astronomicon at great distances. Beyond this I imagine the Rogue Trader may have a cache of Xenotech onboard that was for intended sale to the Adeptus Mechanicus or other parties within the Imperium, Eldar Weapons, Samples of Wraithbone, Tau Technology, etc.

From what I can gather from the comments and the Rogue Trader RPG source books, Unless it was a die hard puritan Inquisitor, the Rogue Trader might just get dirty looks in this case, maybe?

That kind of tech? The inquisition and the AdMech would be all over that. The good that this kind of device would do for the Imperium means that there would be no chance the Ordo Xenos together with AdMech would not take it, to conduct research and possible reverse engineer the device. For the other items, depending on if a deal can be made with an inquisitor in question for either something from the cache or assistance in another way it should not be that big of a deal. The inquisition and the AdMech both research Xenos tech, there is of course the chance it would just be requisitioned depending on how strong/powerful the rogue trader is.

 VictorVeneratus wrote:
mrhappyfacewrote:

4. I have not read about this, can you link the story?

I don't have a link to the story, but I do believe it was the novel Angel Exterminatus.

Correct.

regarding writing a primarch........

Don't. don't write in his head. you're not a Primarch level super genius so it will be challanging to do so, rather write from the prespective of someone observing his actions anmd occasionally asking questions. someone who can stand back watch what he does and at the end go "holy moley, this was his plan all along!"

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding writing a primarch........

Don't. don't write in his head. you're not a Primarch level super genius so it will be challanging to do so, rather write from the prespective of someone observing his actions anmd occasionally asking questions. someone who can stand back watch what he does and at the end go "holy moley, this was his plan all along!"

Definitely agree with this. Deliverance lost was one of the worst HH novels because Gav Thorpe took it upon himself to write from Corax' inner perspective. He is not at all qualified to do so, nobody living is, except maybe Cristiano Ronaldo (). Definitely have a close observer instead

Most things seems to have been covered but I'll at least try to help with the cloning issue a bit.

Regarding cloning there's evidence to support it's existence in 40k and thereby most likely in 30k. Reasons for this are:

Soft evidence: Death Korps of Krieg are said to look remarkably similair to one another and have inhuman stoicm where death is concerened. Their homeworld was purged with atomic bombing and it's said that use cities and enormous tech labs stretch beneath the surface. They are one of the famous guard regiments most noteworthy of making large use of bionics as well as mounting bionic steeds. Mounts from a planet with very little living on it where most people live underground. The theory is that they are using a mass cloning facilities to extend the Emperors armies in penance to their earlier heresies.

Soft evidence: Servitors are usually re-grown from the remains of a once living human but can in some cases be created with a dead humans template. This makes it likely the mechanicus can grow organs and, with the ability to download consiousnesses (done by the mechanicus in the novel: Gunheads) this would suggest this proccess could be used for cloning.

Soft evidence: The custodes are said to be grown much like the primarchs. I recall a marine (possibly primarch) refering to a custodes as "genetic waste". It's stated that the custodians where an early version of the primarchs (who in turn where an early version of the space marines). Seeing how the primarchs where grown in tubes it makes sence that the custodes would have been too. The exact prosedure of creating a custodes has not been revield but through the above it's been hinted that they're grown in vats. Therefore it makes sence that the Emperor either improved upon already existing cloning technology or invented his own.

Hard evidence: In Dark Heresy if a character dies and you have strong mechanicus ties there's an option of "re-growing" your character in a lab. pieces of the characters body must be presented. This suggest an ability to re-grow most of a characters body, since the prosedure can be made despite very little of it has been presented. Thus if it can be "re-grown" you can probably clone it while your at it, though the result will always clearly be marginally diffrent from the original host.

Theory: Mass cloning was most likely invented during the golden age of mankind (M5-ish) when mankind first set out to fill in the void left by the shattered Eldar empire. During this time the technological marvels of man made them superior to all their opposition. They fought with robots, titans and warships. Mostly having their AI (the fabled men of steel) do their fighting for them. It's also a time when diplomacy with xenos was most likely far more acceptable. During this time it makes perfect sence for clones loaded with an AI conciousness to be fielded in both menial tasks and in war. Add to this the dark age of technology, the age of strife and then the rise of the Emperor and your looking at a piece of tech that just might have made it into 30m in the shape of servitors, custodians and the little known and much less talked about space marine leader warrior cast.

That's about all the facts I have on cloning. Basicly think half metal body and clone away. I'm 100% sure a mechanicus adept could keep a few spare husks lying around for the inevitable fail of his physical body parts. No sence why a primarch, if he choses to put some metal in his head, couldn't do the same.

EDIT: forgot about the psychic part. I've yet to come across anything that suggests you could clone a psyker or even leave his psychic powers intact after cloning him. As a matter of fact it makes sence to me that you could strip someone of their psychic powers through cloning. The Emperor created Magnus the read however and though there's a high chance of chaos trickery being involved here it definetly leaves it open for debate. In nemesis there's a created humanoid beast that absorbs the power of what it devours. If such a thing could be created then I suppose a similar ability could be incorpirated into a clone and thus by sacrifising a psyker or just adding psychic material (IE, parts of a psyker) you might be able to spawn a psychic clone. Not sure about this one, it's hard to speculate on psykers without entering the realm of chaos trickery.

I hope you find this helpfull.

There's another psychic primarch that everyone's glossed over so far - Leman Russ was a very powerful psychic. The main difference being that all of his psychic powers were tied up in his self-image, and he was in denial about them. Thus, he could only use them to affect his own body and protect himself from other psychic powers.

That's why he was able to defeat Magnus the Red on Prospero. When Magnus tried to attack him psychically, he instinctively dispelled everything, and when it came to physical blows, his psychic powers made him significantly stronger than his body would have let him be, thus he was capable of brawling on an even level with Magnus, who was significantly bigger than him.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's another psychic primarch that everyone's glossed over so far - Leman Russ was a very powerful psychic. The main difference being that all of his psychic powers were tied up in his self-image, and he was in denial about them. Thus, he could only use them to affect his own body and protect himself from other psychic powers.

That's why he was able to defeat Magnus the Red on Prospero. When Magnus tried to attack him psychically, he instinctively dispelled everything, and when it came to physical blows, his psychic powers made him significantly stronger than his body would have let him be, thus he was capable of brawling on an even level with Magnus, who was significantly bigger than him.

IIRC one of the primarchs in a HH novel, I wanna say the Khan in Scars, remarks that ALL Primarchs are psykicly gifted even if some are in denial about it

Thank you all so much for your input! this has been very helpful! This has made outlining far easier!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's another psychic primarch that everyone's glossed over so far - Leman Russ was a very powerful psychic. The main difference being that all of his psychic powers were tied up in his self-image, and he was in denial about them. Thus, he could only use them to affect his own body and protect himself from other psychic powers.

That's why he was able to defeat Magnus the Red on Prospero. When Magnus tried to attack him psychically, he instinctively dispelled everything, and when it came to physical blows, his psychic powers made him significantly stronger than his body would have let him be, thus he was capable of brawling on an even level with Magnus, who was significantly bigger than him.

IIRC one of the primarchs in a HH novel, I wanna say the Khan in Scars, remarks that ALL Primarchs are psykicly gifted even if some are in denial about it

Plus all of them being psykically gifted makes sense since they were created from the genetic material of The Emperor (you know, one of (if not, the most) powerful psyker in existence) and from the Power of the Chaos Gods.