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My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

What's the question?

Outside of needing a second detachment to get Drop Pods for Scouts, I don't see any issues here.

There is a rule that states: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." Arriving From Reserves is during the Start of the Turn, nothing separates the timing of the Roll with the timing of the deployment. So, while the Vanguard could still come in, technically they would not be able to use the Scouts to be On Target.

...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

 ArmyC wrote:
.... Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders......

You deserved it

If you don't like this to happen buy screeners or play reserve chicken it isn't that hard not to get charged by them and you would murder all those vets in one or two rounds of shooting.

 ArmyC wrote:
My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

I do not see anything in that formation that allows the Vanguards to arrive turn 1.

Was there something else that allowed the vets to arrive turn 1?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

I do not see anything in that formation that allows the Vanguards to arrive turn 1.

Was there something else that allowed the vets to arrive turn 1?

You missed the bold part.

Lets speed things up :
The reason why you can reserve on turn 1
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-62fZyQNC-GU/Vi0DVtxfjAI/AAAAAAAAQlg/iEgmBheYRH0/s1600/01.PNG

The reason why you can assault on the deepstrike turn .
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1mbt4w0ksss/Vi0DvphtqJI/AAAAAAAAQmA/M6uG4a6-Qxg/s1600/04.PNG

It works get over it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

I do not see anything in that formation that allows the Vanguards to arrive turn 1.

Was there something else that allowed the vets to arrive turn 1?

You missed the bold part.

Weird, I didn't see that in the formations rules.

Because it isn't it is a raven decurion style benefit its not in the killteam formation.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Because it isn't it is a raven decurion style benefit its not in the killteam formation.

So the reserve rolls do not work for the Shadowstrike Kill Team formation.

So how did he bring in Shadowstrike Kill Team members when they are not a part of the Talon Strike Force detachment?

Unless it was the Auxiliary Formation then that makes sense.

Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

DeathReaper wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Because it isn't it is a raven decurion style benefit its not in the killteam formation.

So the reserve rolls do not work for the Shadowstrike Kill Team formation.

So how did he bring in Shadowstrike Kill Team members when they are not a part of the Talon Strike Force detachment?

Unless it was the Auxiliary Formation then that makes sense.

It is. Zoggy just missed a comma or a period. It should have read:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Because it isn't, it is a raven decurion style benefit, its not in the killteam formation.

From the OP:

ArmyC wrote:
ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

The Shadowstrike Kill Team is listed as an Auxiliary Choice for the Talon Strike Force, which in turn provides the 1st Turn Reserves Roll.

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

What rules support that claim?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

Did you read what I wrote?

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

What rules support that claim?

From what I said earlier:

Charistoph wrote:There is a rule that states: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." Arriving From Reserves is during the Start of the Turn, nothing separates the timing of the Roll with the timing of the deployment. So, while the Vanguard could still come in, technically they would not be able to use the Scouts to be On Target.

The ability to Charge after Deep Strike is not dependent upon the Scouts, but the ability to Deep Strike without Scatter is.

…On Target: Vanguard Veteran Squads from this Formation can charge on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. In addition, they do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike if the first model is placed within 9″ of at least two Scout Squads from this Formation.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

Did you read what I wrote?

Jup but I replied before or during your edit. ; )

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

What rules support that claim?

From what I said earlier:

Charistoph wrote:There is a rule that states: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." Arriving From Reserves is during the Start of the Turn, nothing separates the timing of the Roll with the timing of the deployment. So, while the Vanguard could still come in, technically they would not be able to use the Scouts to be On Target.

The ability to Charge after Deep Strike is not dependent upon the Scouts, but the ability to Deep Strike without Scatter is.

…On Target: Vanguard Veteran Squads from this Formation can charge on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. In addition, they do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike if the first model is placed within 9″ of at least two Scout Squads from this Formation.

The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

Did you read what I wrote?

Jup but I replied before or during your edit. ; )

well 5 minutes after...

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

The Scouts provide the ability and are incorporated in the rule. They are the equivalent of a Teleport Homer in many respects (though that ones still has its own language forbidding it).

But it is still an ability of the Scouts to act like that Teleport Homer and a rule the Scouts must have in order for it to work. And it has to work while Arriving From Reserves which is the Start of the Turn.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

The Scouts provide the ability and are incorporated in the rule. They are the equivalent of a Teleport Homer in many respects (though that ones still has its own language forbidding it).

But it is still an ability of the Scouts to act like that Teleport Homer and a rule the Scouts must have in order for it to work. And it has to work while Arriving From Reserves which is the Start of the Turn.

the rule just says if arrives within 9" of a scout unit, it says nothing or request the scouts should be already on the table or that this won't work on an unit who arrived in the same turn from reserves so RAW as long he deep strike at 9" of 2x scouts squads he can do it.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

The Scouts provide the ability and are incorporated in the rule. They are the equivalent of a Teleport Homer in many respects (though that ones still has its own language forbidding it).

But it is still an ability of the Scouts to act like that Teleport Homer and a rule the Scouts must have in order for it to work. And it has to work while Arriving From Reserves which is the Start of the Turn.

the rule just says if arrives within 9" of a scout unit, it says nothing or request the scouts should be already on the table or that this won't work on an unit who arrived in the same turn from reserves so RAW as long he deep strike at 9" of 2x scouts squads he can do it.

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

The rule I quoted is in Moving On From Reserves.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

I think they refer to this part.

"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."

But as i pointed the Shadowstrike formation rules wich allow to deploy without scatter says absolutely nothing about the scouts needing to be in the table before reserves arrives, all it says if Vanguards deploy within 9" of 2x scout units of this formation they don't scatter.

I sure understand that RAI it's deploying near the scouts (under the premise they infiltrated ahead) but RAW there is no restriction.

I'm still curious as to how both pods came in Turn 1. Unless there was another Pod that wasn't mentioned.

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm still curious as to how both pods came in Turn 1. Unless there was another Pod that wasn't mentioned.

maybe there was a 3rd maybe he was just lucky as the formation allows to deploy reserves on 1st turn with a 4+, wich would explain why he choose to combat squad the scouts, as this allows it to perform the trick with just 1x pod and do it flawlessly if the 2nd comes too.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
.... Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders......

You deserved it

If you don't like this to happen buy screeners or play reserve chicken it isn't that hard not to get charged by them and you would murder all those vets in one or two rounds of shooting.

This.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm still curious as to how both pods came in Turn 1. Unless there was another Pod that wasn't mentioned.

maybe there was a 3rd maybe he was just lucky as the formation allows to deploy reserves on 1st turn with a 4+, wich would explain why he choose to combat squad the scouts, as this allows it to perform the trick with just 1x pod and do it flawlessly if the 2nd comes too.

Except the Pod does not have permission to role on Turn 1, and if you are rolling for the unit, you are not rolling for the Pod (as required by Drop Pod Assault).

I assumed the Pods came from a separate CAD, as that's the only way to put the Scouts in them.

Then, if there were at least 3 pods in the overall army, these 2 could have been the ones that arrive on turn 1.

The only Reserves being "rolled" for is the Vanguard, and they can choose to auto-pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Perversor wrote:

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

I think they refer to this part.

"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."