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Q: Are there ever any circumstances that allow a vehicle with an Ordnance weapon the ability to fire it as Snap Shots? Say the weapon in question is not of a type (Blast or Template) that may not be fired as a Snap Shot, but another circumstance requires Snap Shots (the vehicle is under the effect of Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned). Can it fire Ordnance weapons?
A: Yes. Provided the weapon in question is not a Blast or Template weapon (or otherwise cannot be fired as Snap Shots) a vehicle can fire an Ordnance weapon as Snap Shots (such as when Crew Stunned).
I find it a handy clarifier since I've seen a LOT of people not realize that.
And BS2, S9, AP1, Heavy 1 Ordnance weapons cracking fliers is hilarious in my head.
That's only for vehicles.
And Rapier Laser Destroyers are ap2 (the ap1 ones on the ones found on the Fellblade)
DoomMouse wrote: That does specifically talk about vehicles though - I think it implies that non-vehicles can also snap fire ordnance, but doesn't state it explicitly...
Artillery is the only non-vehicle source of Ordnance I know of, and that shoots basically like a vehicle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I was going over my list last night and it looks more like I've only got 126 points to throw around. I have 206 if I don't take a Autocannon Chimera for the command squad.
Not sure what to put in there honestly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/11 17:18:50
If you stick with a Tzeentch demagogue, I cant stress how awesome cheap obsec spawn are.
Artillery doesn't shoot at all like a vehicle. It functions more like a heavy weapon team, as it doesn't have a firing arc, and is forced to snap shot if it moves (if it can). Which is why I will always take Heavy ordnancey batteries over basilisks.
Artillery firing ordnance snap shots currently is a no, but is a YMDC discussion. It is also FW, and they are notorious for making rules that cannot work, like the Arvus lighter being forced to snap shot blasts.
Some other point sinks I like:
Heavy weapon on the command squad. They are BS4, which is hard to come by for us.
5 vets with deep strike. Deep strike obsec for 50pt?! why not?
If you are Nurgle AD, take as many zombies as you can. They are worth it.
Sentinels with Heavy flamers, though you have to use militia training, so you might as well give them auto cannons.
Speaking of artillery, I was just thinking that swapping Basalisks out for a Heavy Ordnance Battery would shave some more points out while doing the same job since the base cost for 2 of the Earthshaker cannons is less than the cost of one Basalisk tank.
That'd free up quite a bit of points for other stuff. Still not enough to squeeze a knight in but something like the Sentinal parade (6 Sentinels with Autocannons) could fit in there.
And the command squad already has a Autocannon in my list. It's a super cheap upgrade and let's them be a cheap way to harass units and plink armor.
I'm definitely thinking of staying Tzeentch, though I'm not 100% certain I want to throw spawn in there. At least not before I take a look and see if there is anything else the list really needs first.
I'll redress the list and do the math for the change and see where it puts me and post it up for critique.
When fw get around to their death from the skies update.. an arvus detachment could be pretty useful... Flying obsec.. no detachment tax.. Would fit well in an incursion...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/11 18:43:57
Just a clarification: For our Arch Demagogue, his stats say he is Infantry (Character), but under special rules he has the Independent Character special rule. So which is he? And is he able to split off and join a different squad? I mean, you have to buy a disciple squad with him.
He is an independent character, and yeah, you have to buy the command squad, but he can split off wherever for shenanigans.
I highly suggest artillery over any tank equivalent. People don't know what to do against artillery, and smart crew placement will go a long way.
Sentinel parade is fun, I enjoy bringing it. I don't know about its usefuleness in hyper meta, but its caught a few people off guard and done well enough popping tanks and packing on wounds!
Fantastic! My brother is wanting to build up a R&H army with the Zealot Arch Demagogue. And he also just so happens to want to try out the renegade ogryns, because... Renegade ogryns! I think having zealot renegade ogryins sounds horrifyingly fun
For as much as our book is better than AM, Ogryns is one part where we fall flat. Try a proxy unit with them a few times, especially before you buy the FW models lol. 60 points for a single ogryn is a little steep.
gwarsh41 wrote: For as much as our book is better than AM, Ogryns is one part where we fall flat. Try a proxy unit with them a few times, especially before you buy the FW models lol. 60 points for a single ogryn is a little steep.
The hounds are equally poorly priced too making even a small hound and ogryn unit less than feasible.
True, and I'm not planning on getting any (I'll have the 3 chaos spawn unit that's cheaper/better in some ways). But he's more of a fluff player than I, and I'd love to see him get the most mileage out of those guys as possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/12 11:46:29
The core of pretty much all my Renegade armies these day are:
-Ordnance Tyrant and Covenant of Nurgle Demagogue
-3x3 Rapier Laser Destroyers with extra Crew and Militia training
-Thudd guns and/or Wyverns
-3-4 zombie blobs
-Possibly Medusa guns
And then some allies for speed, varying between KDK, CSM and Daemons.
List I'm contemplating bringing to an upcoming event (unless I decide to go for Corsairs or Space Marines, I'll roll a D3 to decide ):
In my mind, for anyone nor running purge detachment there is no excuse for not taking a couple of flamer sentinels.
Theyight not be very good individualy, but being so irresponsibility cheap is outright hysterical. 20 points for a body much tougher than a marine packing a heavy flamer is a steal.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
I've been thinking about using flamer sentinels, as, like you said, they're so incredibly cheap. I could use them as a wall of AV 10 flaming death to screen my other advancing troops.
The only thing is, while I could spam 3 full squads incredibly easily points wise, I do not have a very large disposable income. How in the world am I going to pay for 15 sentinels!? Games workshop sells them for $30 a piece, so that's $450 for 300 points!? (There may be some on e-bay though...)
Problem I have on loading up on flamer Sentinels is the mandatory militia training tax for BHR. Makes it hard to bring the chaff, but that's the price one pays for them sometimes.
As for getting them on budget, eBay should be flowing with them, given they were in the IG battleforces for years, and while the battleforces were desirable, the sentinels not so much.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
DoomMouse wrote: I'd not really considered running sentinels like that before - I do imagine they'd be pretty decent annoyance units!
I find that people seem to overlook Griffons too - 35pts for a chimera chassis and an ordnance blast is a bit crazy to pass up on
I run a sentinel parade pretty often. Though I generally do it for point filler to "dumb down" my list a little for casual games, I give them all auto cannons and militia training. Its still pretty useful though. 12 autocannon shots isn't much to scoff at, and if the grenade nerf stays in place, they are decently resilient. Over the weekend I had a game where I forgot my HWT models for my infantry platoon, so I was short a good chunk of points, I made it up by throwing AV12 on all my sentinels. Let them survive in CC for a while, but totally not worth it.
In a local escalation league we are required to take 2 fast attack for a mission, mine is going to likely be a hellhound for the sweet 18" torrent, and a flamer parade.
Griffons are so so. Yeah you can re-roll the scatter, but why not just take the artillery equivalent and be harder to kill? Both of them (in my eyes) are outclassed by the wyvern and quad mortar, though AP4 can be very nice.
I also tried out grenadiers in transports. It was pretty fun, but I am terrible at tactics of using dudes in transports. I had no idea what to do with them. I was afraid to lose the transports and let my little people get assaulted and played too passive with them. I will surely try it again though, as it was a nice change of pace from the usual lists I make. Between two grenadier squads, and I got infiltrate 3 units for my warlord trait, so I infiltrated my infantry platoon with melta, I had loads of AP1 and 2 all around the field plopping shots at everything, it was a good game.
BoomWolf wrote: In my mind, for anyone nor running purge detachment there is no excuse for not taking a couple of flamer sentinels.
Theyight not be very good individualy, but being so irresponsibility cheap is outright hysterical. 20 points for a body much tougher than a marine packing a heavy flamer is a steal.
Did not realize they were that cheap. Hmm. Wonder if I could do anything cool counts-as sentinels....
For anyone looking for some cheap artillery carriage alternatives I just received my order from www.bitsofwar.com and they have some beautiful artillery as well as lasgun carriages that can be used instead of rapier batteries. Check them out...
Large enough to stand in as medusa or earthshaker carriages.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 16:15:14
So I'm at a bit of a crossroads. I'm building up my renegades army, but all this talk of tactics has me thinking. I'm still planning on having the giant mutant army, but I also would like to try a Bloody Handed Reaver variant of the army as well, using a lot of the same models, but with a far smaller model count.
And before anyone comments, I know I'm missing out by not giving any covenants to anybody, but I'm doing it more for fluff reasons, as this will be my fluffy army.
Army one (mutants) CAD
HQ: Arch Demagogue (Mutant Overlord): No Covenant, Power Axe.
Disciples: 1 with shotgun, 1 with plasma gun, 1 autocannon team.
Transport: Chimera: heavy flamer, multilaser, and dozer blade
HQ: 2 Enforcers: Both with Power Axe, Melta Bombs, and Combat Drug Injectors.
Elites: Marauder Squad (Stalkers): 2 Brutes, Marauder Chief with Power Axe, Laspistol, and Melta bombs. 5 Marauders with shotguns, 2 with flamers.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 49 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 49 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: 3 Spawn
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 2 extra crew
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 3 extra crew
Heavy: 2 Leman Russ Eradicators, both with Sponson Heavy Bolters and Militia Training
Lord of War: 3 Giant Spawn
The idea for this one is to have the mutants (with enforcers attached) blob up and bubble wrap the Giant Spawn and tank as they all advance with rapiers holding the back objectives and blasting tanks. Also, if one of the mutants gets the right roll on the mutation table, I can have the whole 51 man squad outflank, which is a very fun idea. The Demagogue attaches to whichever unit I think is best depending on the opponent. The small spawn can stay back in a building and jump out at guys trying to hit my back field.
Army 2 (Mutant/mech) CAD
HQ: Arch Demagogue (Bloody-Handed Reaver): No covenant, Carapace Armor, Power Sword, Hot-Shot Lasgun.
Disciples: 2 with shotguns, 1 with plasma gun, 1 autocannon team.
Transport: Chimera: 2 heavy bolters, Militia Training, Camo Netting.
HQ: Enforcer: Power Axe, Melta Bombs, and Combat Drug Injectors.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 49 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol. All with flack armor.
Troops: Grenadier Squad (Scouts): 7 with Hot-Shot Lasguns, 2 with Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Champion with Hot-Shot Lasgun, and Melta Bombs.
Transport: Chimera: 2 heavy bolters, Militia Training, Camo Netting.
Troops: Grenadier Squad (Scouts): 7 with Hot-Shot Lasguns, 2 with Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Champion with Hot-Shot Lasgun, and Melta Bombs.
Transport: Chimera: 2 heavy bolters, Militia Training, Camo Netting.
Troops: Grenadier Squad (Carapace Armor): 7 with Hot-Shot Lasguns, 2 with Plasma Guns, Champion with Hot-Shot Lasgun, and Melta Bombs.
Fast Attack: Valkyrie: Multi-laser, 2 Multiple Rocket Pods, 2 Sponson Heavy Bolters, Militia Training.
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 2 extra crew
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 3 extra crew
Heavy: Leman Russ Eradicator: Sponson Heavy Bolters, and Militia Training
The idea for this one is have the mutants (with enforcer) run up front to give the tanks extra cover and draw fire. The Grenadiers take objectives and lay down low AP fire, and the Carapace guys and the HQ hitch a ride with the Valk to drop in for some AP 2 goodness wherever needed, while the rapiers stay home and blast the hard targets.
I guess the question is, for those who have run similar lists, does any of this seem like a waste of time, or actually somewhat playable as an army?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/18 22:00:01
DoomMouse wrote: How did you convert them? I've been preparing to do 6 or 9 of my own - was initially thinking about using tracks from the kataphron destroyers kit (but it'd be a bit expensive!)
On R&H tactics: I have good fun using 2x5 Griffons + 3 Earthshakers in The Purge. That's 13 large blasts leaving survivors with multiple dangerous terrain tests to pass when they move. Having 5 large blasts come down as multiple barrage also works nicely against invisible units or to avoid giving away jink saves. Griffons are so cheap that I have no problem using the 10 of them to block LoS to my entire arm if need be - it's so much fun watching the Eldar player's frustration when his 30+ Scatterbikes have nothing to shoot but AV12 Tanks.
Generally, R&H tend to be a mix of cheap hold-up units that die easily, and a ton of hard-shooting artillery and tanks. The one big gap is speed, so that's where allies can be useful.
I don't know if you need anyone to bubblewrap giant chaos spawn. Those dudes are freaking beasts, and for 80pt they are an absolute steal! I've had mine take out sanguinary guard, terminators, flesh hounds, bikers, countless tacticals (though one got held up by some ratlings for a few turns thanks to bad rolls!) and even a daemon prince once! (go go FnP 2!)
They are on 100mm bases according to FW, but Maggoth lords from AoS make absolutely awesome Giant chaos spawn if you plop something over the hole where the rider goes. Spawn and Giant spawn
Your marauders are fluffy, but its kind of a weak link, especially for the points. Make sure you read up on "in it for the money" Once they fail a moral check, they are gone, never able to regroup, and they are LD 8. Fluffy, but I wouldn't risk it. Also a little out of place with all those mutants. You could spend their points on more normal spawn, which could then assist the giant spawn, keep them from getting bogged down by a horde, and have a few PT left over for more another mutant horde.
Personally I would aim for units of 30. Units of 50 are going to be very tough to work with, youll probably be moving through cover on every turn, and it will slow down your giant spawn and normal spawn. If you get 3-4 units of 30, you also have more chances of outflank as well.
Again, I am always glad to hear that the Giant Spawn perform so well, as I'm sure they're going to be the centerpiece of my army (cheapest centerpiece ever! ). And thanks for the base size, by the way, and for the suggestion. I'd probably not use it as It looks a bit too 'evil' and not just plain mutated. I guess the theme of my army is that I'm tired of mutants always being the evil guys! (hence the lack of a covenant) One model I really wanted to use for one of my three spawn, was this guy
Now I got to figure out the models for my other two!
Taking into account your advice, I've re-hashed my lists.
Army one (EVEN MORE mutants) CAD
Spoiler:
HQ: Arch Demagogue (Mutant Overlord): No Covenant, Power Axe.
Disciples: 2 with shotguns, 1 autocannon team.
Transport: Chimera: Two Heavy Bolters, Militia Training
HQ: 2 Enforcers: Both with Power Axe, Melta Bombs, and Combat Drug Injectors.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 29 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 29 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 29 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 24 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: 3 Spawn
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 2 extra crew
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 3 extra crew
Heavy: 2 Leman Russ Eradicators, both with Sponson Heavy Bolters and Militia Training
Lord of War: 3 Giant Spawn
So we went from two squads with a total of 100 mutants, to four squads with a total of 115 mutants. Also, I scrapped the marauders (boy were they a points sink), and the plasma gun from the command squad (really have no idea what to actually do with them).
Army 2 (Mutant/mech) CAD
Spoiler:
HQ: Arch Demagogue (Bloody-Handed Reaver): No covenant, Carapace Armor, Hot-Shot Lasgun.
Disciples: 2 with shotguns, 1 autocannon team.
Transport: Chimera: 2 heavy bolters, Militia Training.
HQ: Enforcer: Power Axe, Melta Bombs, and Combat Drug Injectors.
Troops: Mutant Rabble: 29 Mutants with Shotguns, Champion with Power Axe and Laspistol.
Troops: Grenadier Squad (Scouts): 7 with Hot-Shot Lasguns, 2 with Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Champion with Hot-Shot Lasgun, and Melta Bombs.
Transport: Chimera: 2 heavy bolters, Militia Training, Camo Netting.
Troops: Grenadier Squad (Scouts): 7 with Hot-Shot Lasguns, 2 with Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Champion with Hot-Shot Lasgun, and Melta Bombs.
Transport: Chimera: 2 heavy bolters, Militia Training, Camo Netting.
Troops: Grenadier Squad (Carapace Armor): 7 with Hot-Shot Lasguns, 2 with Plasma Guns, Champion with Hot-Shot Lasgun, and Melta Bombs.
Fast Attack: Valkyrie: Multi-laser, 2 Multiple Rocket Pods, Militia Training.
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 2 extra crew
Heavy: 3 Rapiers, 3 extra crew
Heavy: 2 Leman Russ Eradicators: Both with Sponson Heavy Bolters, and Militia Training
So we took the flack armor off the mutants (only 5+ anyways), dropped them to 30, and took off the plasma gun from the disciples, the heavy bolters off the Valkyrie, and the Reaver's power sword. In return, I got to put in a second eradicator.
I've thought about lots of pie-plates, but unfortunately, they're not a great option for my local gaming store, as all our tournaments are timed, and nothing slows the game down like a swarm army mixed with lots of pie plates (side note, I hate wyverns. Not because they're very good anti-infantry against my orks, but because the game goes so slowly every turn whenever they shoot, the game never goes very far).
Anyways, thanks for the advice, guys! Does either seem like a better army idea to you?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 18:17:41
When you run a Purge formation does the arch-demagogue need to take a specific convent in order to function with the formation rules or can they take the master of the horde?
I like the mutant list a lot more. It's hard for me to comment on the other one because I fell so flat on my face when trying to run a list with grenadiers in transports. I don't really care for the Valkyrie though. I feel like it doesn't really bring much firepower for its points, though the model is pretty sweet.
Now you can choose which units to drop your enforces in as well!
The Purge doesn't require any demagogues at all. It can be IA:13, Vraks, or CSM. It's commonly taken with Vraks with Ordnance Tyrant for artillery spam though, also no covenant for spawn spam. You can legit just take a command squad, 2 spawn units, and 3 giant chaos spawn. Do that as many times as you want for a giant spawn circus.
I would suggest Unending host with master of the horde though.
Its not formations, its FoC charts. and while you can have two, or more, you'll only have one warlord, and as such only one of the charts will have unlocks, while the other will have nothing unlocked and will deal with just "basic" units.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
I think having zealot renegade ogryins sounds horrifyingly fun 
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
