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I think BA just says demonology. Not sure though.

Have you read any faqs for those books?
The very first amendment in the 7th ed update for the 6th ed DA codex states all psykers can take daemonolgy as well as any other disciplines listed. This was obviously omitted from the 7th ed codex faq because that codex has daemonology listed on the libby's datasheet.

I've checked the Ebooks (most up to date rules) for space marines, DA and the wolves. All of which list daemonology under available disciplines.

@Xenomancers
My Space Marine Codex includes Daemonology in the list of disciplines accessible to Librarians. No idea about the special marine codices, but that one has it.

As stated, I don't dispute the reference card's existence or content, but at best the card points to future publiation providing rules that specify which units are permitted access to which disciplines.

The assumption seems to be all units get all disciplines. Yet, it might just as well be limited to named characters, dependent on buying upgrades or come at a point cost. As evident by the rule granting access Daemonology in the BRB, terms and conditions may apply.

Martel732 wrote:
I think BA just says demonology. Not sure though.

They all do. Daemonology includes santic and malefic. Unless stated otherwise (grey knights and eldar both state santic iirc) every psyker can take both

Why on earth would the SPACE MARINE supplement call out the SW, DA, BA, ect rules?


the space marine supplement doesnt give the other chapters permission to use the new disciplines, because its not a book of rules for those factions.. it gives permission only to codex SM.


SW, BA, DA GK all still get access to the new powers because the powers themselves have rules that are released 100% independantly of the SM supplement (the cards) which spell out who gets what.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

I totally called it. Trap question.

Data slates say librarians get the powErs, not GKSS.

You, of course, can house rule how you wish. I, at least, can sleep knowing I referenced an actual rule. "A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian"

Librarian. Black and white.

 easysauce wrote:
Why on earth would the SPACE MARINE supplement call out the SW, DA, BA, ect rules?


the space marine supplement doesnt give the other chapters permission to use the new disciplines, because its not a book of rules for those factions.. it gives permission only to codex SM.


SW, BA, DA GK all still get access to the new powers because the powers themselves have rules that are released 100% independantly of the SM supplement (the cards) which spell out who gets what.

So you are saying, that it is logical to find no mention of special marines in the space marine supplement, but that the cards deliberately were published independent of that and clarify access.

Why does GW's webshop list the AoD book in the special marine categories?
I posit that this supports my position of a marketing fuckup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

I totally called it. Trap question.

Data slates say librarians get the powErs, not GKSS.

You, of course, can house rule how you wish. I, at least, can sleep knowing I referenced an actual rule. "A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian"

Librarian. Black and white.

Is that the card product description in the webshop?
If yes, that is not a rule. It slso does not match the rule in the AOD book, which includes all psykers with the Space Marine Faction.

Next, an Space Wolf Rune Priest might not be best pleased that only units called "space marine librarian" get access.

 kronk wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why does having preset powers make you unable to use the Reference Card? It says that GK can access the powers. It doesn't say which units can do so. Therefore, any GK psyker can use the powers. I'm just going to replace my GKSS's Banishment (Primaris) and Hammerhand (#2) with the Primaris and #2 from some other discipline.
I am adding this ability to the dataslate, based on the Reference Card.
I will also add this ability to access the new disciplines to my Librarian based on the Reference Card.

It does go against the dataslate in both cases, but it aligns with the Reference Card.

I totally called it. Trap question.

Data slates say librarians get the powErs, not GKSS.

You, of course, can house rule how you wish. I, at least, can sleep knowing I referenced an actual rule. "A set of twenty-eight datacards detailing four psychic disciplines usable by any Space Marine Librarian"

Librarian. Black and white.

although I'd be happy to allow GK Brother-Captains and GK Grandmasters access to said powers as well.

The reference card and the product description on a website are not definitive rules. Reference cards in particular have been very misleading in the past, for instance listing CSM as having access to Divination. Technically correct but only possible for a single CSM unit selected from a codex supplement and taking a specific relic.

As it stands only the SM have access to these new powers but I expect it is the RAI for GK etc to get them too and would be OK with this for HIWPI. Those codexes just need an FAQ to confirm this which should be in the pipeline. Similar to when Daemonology discipline was released, older codexes got an FAQ to let them use it.

Pleas define when a rule statement is not rules

"Its not in a codex" (or similar) just doesnt cut it any longer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pleas define when a rule statement is not rules

"Its not in a codex" (or similar) just doesnt cut it any longer.

I'd say a reference card could count as rules, but there's one very important detail: It does not grant any UNIT access to any discipline. It's an overview of what disciplines are available to what Faction in theory. A unit must have specific access to a discipline to actually use it - either by a rule explicitly telling you to add it to the available disciplines or simply by saying so on the datasheet.

Inquisition as a Faction has access to ALL disciplines as per the Psychic Powers Reference card.
Not one model from Codex:Inquisition actually has access to Biomancy.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Similar to when Daemonology discipline was released, older codexes got an FAQ to let them use it.

the rulebook itself allowed every psyker in the game (excluding nids) to use daemonology from the release of 7th

 jokerkd wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Similar to when Daemonology discipline was released, older codexes got an FAQ to let them use it.

the rulebook itself allowed every psyker in the game (excluding nids) to use daemonology from the release of 7th

Not sure how this is relevant. They still FAQed the codexes to detail it. The point was that the new SM supplement allows SM to use the new powers but as far as I understand it there's no mention of GK etc, contrary to your BRB example. So the other codexes need an FAQ to allow using the new powers.

As I already said, I think the RAI is probably that they can use them and I would expect an imminent FAQ to clarify as such.

The situation we have here is GW told BA, DA, SW, and GK's players they can use the cards. And since GW won't be offering refunds to those of us who purchased them. I'm going to use the fething cards. And those of you who feel GW didn't do it right, get the joy of appearing magnanimous while condescendingly judging us for it at the same time.

So sounds like a win for both sides.

Considering GW has had three weeks to correct the "error" on the website (and I guarantee at least one person has pointed it out to them), I would say it is intentional.

Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The reference card and the product description on a website are not definitive rules.

Why wouldn't reference cards published by GW definite rules? I don't follow the logic here.

Naw wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The reference card and the product description on a website are not definitive rules.

Why wouldn't reference cards published by GW definite rules? I don't follow the logic here.

Because the definitive rules regarding which psychic disciplines units can use are listed on their army list entries or as modified by FAQ or supplements. If you only looked at the reference cards you could have Tzeentch daemons rolling on Telepathy or Slaanesh daemons rolling on Biomancy etc which isn't allowed.

Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

If that were the case they would have FAQ it in the same manner that they FAQ that daemons could roll on Daemonology.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

If that were the case they would have FAQ it in the same manner that they FAQ that daemons could roll on Daemonology.

That's his point. If BA/DA/GK can use the new powers (with no mention of which units can), then Slaanesh can roll on Biomancy, since Biomancy is listed as a CD discipline on the card. So either, non-SM cannot currently use the powers (to be more precise they theoretically can, but no unit actually has access), or we treat the Reference card as absolute truth, and any Daemon can roll on Biomancy, and any CSM psyker can roll on Divination.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Why can't Slaanesh Daemons roll on Biomancy? It's on the reference card and the codex was published before the reference cards came out.

If that were the case they would have FAQ it in the same manner that they FAQ that daemons could roll on Daemonology.

That's his point. If BA/DA/GK can use the new powers (with no mention of which units can), then Slaanesh can roll on Biomancy, since Biomancy is listed as a CD discipline on the card. So either, non-SM cannot currently use the powers (to be more precise they theoretically can, but no unit actually has access), or we treat the Reference card as absolute truth, and any Daemon can roll on Biomancy, and any CSM psyker can roll on Divination.

Indeed. So currently your first scenario is the absolute RAW. I'd just like to clarify I believe the RAI is for GK etc to have access and I'd have no problem with this, they just need to FAQ the relevant codexes. I'm sure I'd get some funny looks if I started rolling on Telepathy with pink horrors.

I'd give you more than a funny look. I'd tell you it was illegal, and I'd be right.

Just like I'd tell you that currently it's illegal for non-SM marines to roll on Librarius, and I'd be right.

If you ("you" being all y'all) take this holy reference card to be rules, then you MUST allow Horrors to roll biomancy. (Which I actually would like to try out in a game. Imagine all that Smash....)

We a little more context than just the card though

 jokerkd wrote:
We a little more context than just the card though

Thats nice, but not a rule.

RAW, by the reference card, the factions have access to them.
However that is meaningless as RAW none of the units in said factions (except Space Marines) is given specific permission to roll on them, like how the Daemon faction has access to Biomancy but Pink Horrors aren't given the specific permission required to generate powers from Biomancy.

For what its worth, I'd have no problem with GK/DA/BA psykers who generate random powers having access to these powers. Those who have set powers, is different.

I thought we were all agreed on raw????

I'm arguing that RAI is clear as day

Stephanius is convinced it's an error. The reality is much more likely to reflect the reference card. My bottom dollar says the upcoming faqs will allow all chapters to take the new disciplines

 jokerkd wrote:
I thought we were all agreed on raw????

I'm arguing that RAI is clear as day

Stephanius is convinced it's an error. The reality is much more likely to reflect the reference card. My bottom dollar says the upcoming faqs will allow all chapters to take the new disciplines

RAI isn't "clear as day" as reference cards simply do not give all psykers in a Faction access. At best it's "confusing as gak" because they're not clarifying which units get access to which discipline, and that's information we really need. I really don't think they meant for the DW guy who's limited to Biomancy to suddenly be limited to "Biomancy, and these new disciplines, too" - just as an example.

 jokerkd wrote:
I thought we were all agreed on raw????

I'm arguing that RAI is clear as day

Stephanius is convinced it's an error. The reality is much more likely to reflect the reference card. My bottom dollar says the upcoming faqs will allow all chapters to take the new disciplines

An FAQ granting explicit access is likely. Not because that was RAI, but to recover from the misleading advertising situation, which is more serious than they have ever taken game balance.

My hope is, that instead of a blanket permission which includes the last DW git and GK fixed power units, they are a bit more selective in who gets what. A bike could give a librarisn x, while another upgrade could give y. Unfortunatly, even if they limit who gets what, that'll still most likely and most unnecessarily buff Space Wolves.