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nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

Yes they are, but they are inadequate to determine which units can use which disciplines

RAW we know GK can use them (for example)

RAW we know therefoer that any unit that can generate powers can use the disciplines. We know, RAW, any unit with fixed powers cannot generate from those powers, because they cannot generate ANY powers.

Other reference cards having issues with specificity is not important here- they are the exception

nosferatu1001 wrote:RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

RAW we know GK can use them (for example)

RAW we know therefoer that any unit that can generate powers can use the disciplines. We know, RAW, any unit with fixed powers cannot generate from those powers, because they cannot generate ANY powers.

Other reference cards having issues with specificity is not important here- they are the exception

As I already said:

I'd say a reference card could count as rules, but there's one very important detail: It does not grant any UNIT access to any discipline. It's an overview of what disciplines are available to what Faction in theory. A unit must have specific access to a discipline to actually use it - either by a rule explicitly telling you to add it to the available disciplines or simply by saying so on the datasheet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
RAW we know GK can use them (for example)

RAW we know therefoer that any unit that can generate powers can use the disciplines. We know, RAW, any unit with fixed powers cannot generate from those powers, because they cannot generate ANY powers.

Other reference cards having issues with specificity is not important here- they are the exception

The power cards themselves are a copy-pasta of the rules in the supplement - which is rules - therefore the power cards do indeed contain a copy of rules text.

The Quick Reference card is exactly that: a quick reference, a summary, not the source/rule material. Now, while I don't see any arguments in favour of the quick reference card being "rules", proving or disproving its rule status is redundant because it is not sufficiently specifc to be used in the game. It does not contain instructions, permissions or restrictions to follow (rules). The cards simply imply access for the four special marine factions.
You read this as "The Space Wolf faction has access to the Geokinesis discipline" or maybe "All Psykers with the Space Wolf faction have access to the Geokinesis discipline."
However, what it actually says is "Some rule, somewhere, grants (or will when published later grant) someone with the Space Wolves Faction the permission to generate powers from the Geokinesis discipline."

That is how it works, for all factions, for all disciplines and for all quick reference cards contained in power card decks published so far. An overview is provided, but there is always either a blanket rule granting permission to specific units in a faction to generate from a given discipline, or many individual rules that lay out who may generate from which discipline. That is why there is rule granting access to Daemonlogy in the BRB. That is why AoD includes:
Explixt RAW: "Any Psyker with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to other disciplines they have access to."

Now, in the absence of a rule granting access for your faction and with the implication of the checkmark teasing, you can of course close your eyes and make up your own rule. Your position seems to imply the following:
nosferatu1001 HIWPI: "All psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can obviously use the new Faction Space Marine Psychic disciplines too!"

While making stuff up, you need of course accept that others might feel entitled to the same priviledge:
HIWPI #7321: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, but using this option prohibits them from generating any powers from other disciplines besides those four or using fixed powers."
HIWPI #1685: "AnyPsykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions within an Allied Detachment taken next to a Primary Detachment with the Space Marine Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines in addition to any other disciplines they have access to."
HIWPI #1231: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their psychic powers from additional disciplines when purchasing options as detailed here. Units that do not have the option to purchase the option cannot gain access to the disciplines. Terminator Armour grants access to the Geokinesis discpline. A bike grants access to the Technomancy discipline. ..."
HIWPI #6143: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines as long as the player recites all 14 verses of the Litany of Entitlement detailed below, wears the special power paper crown (template provided below) and can show the proof of purchase for their copy of the Angels of Death supplement."
HIWPI #2643: "Any Psykers with the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels factions can generate their powers from the Librarius, Technomancy, Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines in addition to any other disciplines they have access to, if they purchase a correspondence degree course of study from Prof. Tigerius' School for AWESOME marines at a point cost of 10 points per mastery level of the model in question."

The HIWPI examples are meant to be good-natured humourous examples, but I think they bring across the point that you assume the text of the non-existent rule to be as wide as the SM rule is, while ignoring that the four factions in question have a very wide array of very dissimilar psyker units with completely different access to psychic disciplines. We are not talking just SM-Librarians and one or two named characters here.

So, I've been talking to one of the guys from the facebook page (I know I know) those guys obviously have no say in the writing of the rules, but are part of the marketing team

Obviously nothing he said regarding the upcoming faqs is worth repeating, but it was clear that the other chapters having access to the disciplines is no mistake on anyone's part

 jokerkd wrote:
So, I've been talking to one of the guys from the facebook page (I know I know) those guys obviously have no say in the writing of the rules, but are part of the marketing team

Obviously nothing he said regarding the upcoming faqs is worth repeating, but it was clear that the other chapters having access to the disciplines is no mistake on anyone's part

As a marketing guy he has to say that. Unless they FAQ it, he might even be right. That is, if they were planning to publish rules for the special marines in due course and the reference card simply reflects those unpublished rules. If they then do not reprint the new disciplines in that book, they even have an excuse for placing AOD in each of the special marine webshop categories.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Yes, because GW is quick to fix their mistakes. Right.

Raw GK etc cant use them. If you houserule it thats perfectly fine, especially in marine vs marine scenarios. Although balance wise im not sure giving it to all is fair to xenos \ heretic players.

RAW the cards are rules

Prove they arent.

I am NOT saying that they shouldn't be available, but in the case of the BA, GK, DA, and SW Librarians, what disciplines they can use is explicitly shown in their datasheet. All the card does is say they available to that particular army. Same goes for the Deathwatch Librarian. I am not saying they shouldn't be able to get access to the Disciplines, just nothing actually gives Librarians (and their derivatives) access to those powers. If the card said something like "Librarians from the following chapters have access to the following disciplines" I would have no issue.

ANd the ruelbook states that units have access to Daemonology, and that isnt in their datasheet (not all)

So they have been granted access to these 4 discioplines on a codex level. Every unit within has potential access, some in GK have no option to generate so cannot choose.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
ANd the ruelbook states that units have access to Daemonology, and that isnt in their datasheet (not all)

So they have been granted access to these 4 discioplines on a codex level. Every unit within has potential access, some in GK have no option to generate so cannot choose.

Like I said, I am not disagreeing with the idea that they should have access, it is just a little sketchy at the moment. Am I going to make use of the Fulmination Discipline to give Mephiston a 3++? You bet I am! Am I going to lose my cool when the Space Wolf player rocks Geokinesis against me? NOPE! I just think a little clarification on the part of GW is needed. This also opens up the possibility to run the Librarian from the Deathwatch with the new disciplines as well.

Oh more clarity is always wanted - however its hard to state these a) arent rules (they are) and b) that there isnt precedent for gaining acess to disciplines outside of the dataslate before now

Jsut because *other* reference cards have issues doesnt mean you have to dismiss these immediately.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh more clarity is always wanted - however its hard to state these a) arent rules (they are) and b) that there isnt precedent for gaining acess to disciplines outside of the dataslate before now

Jsut because *other* reference cards have issues doesnt mean you have to dismiss these immediately.

So does that mean that Daemons of Slaanesh and Tzeentch psykers can roll on Biomancy?

As I said: problems with other cards doesnt mean you can dismiss these cards

Plus, go for it! Obviously only if you can generate powers at all, and dont have fixed ones.

Quite frankly, after these latest sets of FAQs and their more ... interesting making it up as they go along answers, RAW is dead as a concept anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
ANd the ruelbook states that units have access to Daemonology, and that isnt in their datasheet (not all)

So they have been granted access to these 4 discioplines on a codex level. Every unit within has potential access, some in GK have no option to generate so cannot choose.

A rule in the BRB grants access for all but a few units to Daemonology. Since Daemonology was introduced with this publication, that is the only way to get access, since the previously published codices obviously could not provide rules granting access to something that did not exist when they were written.

A rule in AOD grants access all psykers with the SM faction to the new powers. Note that this is s definte, clear permission rule that defines who exactly can do what and under which conditions.

All BA, DA, SW and GK units have exactly what you state here "potential access", not actual or definite access. As I explained in reply to your earlier assertion, you misunderstand the meaning of the checkmark.
At least one unit in that faction has - or will get - a rule that - possibly with conditions - grants access to this discipline.

"Issues with other cards" are what is called precedent. Established procedure, rather than making stuff up. The Quick Reference card in this new deck isn't distinguished in any way from the others we have seen in7th ed.

This is like arguing over how Graviton works against multiple save units.

Strict RAW, we still don't have an answer, but we are well aware of the intention and what will likely be the final answer in the FAQ.

So what's the point in arguing this? I'm no less certain that i'll be able to use the new powers as I am that i'll be rolling on majority armour in a few weeks

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Quite frankly, after these latest sets of FAQs and their more ... interesting making it up as they go along answers, RAW is dead as a concept anyway.

Thank goodness. The number of people hammering on about RAW, and then finding out that GW FAQ'd or erratad in the other direction was mindboggling. My rule of thumb is when things really aren't clear, is to take the least powerful interpretation. Hasn't led me wrong since 2nd edition.

As a BA player, as it stands at the moment, all of my Librarians/Dread Librarians/Mephiston/etc. all have a list of which psyker powers I can choose from. So, I'll be playing it that I can't use these cards pending two options: 1) GW FAQs it in their upcoming codex-specific FAQs, or 2) my opponent lets me use them. Since I play with a long-time group, I'm sure #2 will be no problem at all.

So we can go around and around with this till the cows come home, and no one will be satisfied. Talk to you opponent, and wait for the FAQ.

 jokerkd wrote:
This is like arguing over how Graviton works against multiple save units.

Strict RAW, we still don't have an answer, but we are well aware of the intention and what will likely be the final answer in the FAQ.

So what's the point in arguing this? I'm no less certain that i'll be able to use the new powers as I am that i'll be rolling on majority armour in a few weeks

Resolved.
Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

 deviantduck wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
This is like arguing over how Graviton works against multiple save units.

Strict RAW, we still don't have an answer, but we are well aware of the intention and what will likely be the final answer in the FAQ.

So what's the point in arguing this? I'm no less certain that i'll be able to use the new powers as I am that i'll be rolling on majority armour in a few weeks

Resolved.
Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

Is a facebook post of a first draft (which they managed to feth up from the start) RAW?

Reread my post assuming i had read the FAQ. My point is, we have clear evidence that both will happen as we expect, but the fact that we dont have it in official rules yet is apparently reason to keep debating

 jokerkd wrote:
...
My point is, we have clear evidence that both will happen as we expect, but the fact that we dont have it in official rules yet is apparently reason to keep debating

We'll will hear something official about this sooner or later, but I don't believe the facebook claim of "no mistake", since I see no way to evaluate the relevant statements in GW rules and advertising as true with that constraint. Think about it for a second:
- The supplement is SM only, but is listed in the shop for the GK/DA/BA/SW factions as well.
- The cards say SM/SW/BA/DA/GK and are listed in the shop for those factions as well.
- The advertising text for both is lists powers for all factions.

Yet rules for SW/GK/DA/BA are missing.
- If SW/GK/DA/B were supposed to get the goodies when the AoD rules were written, there is a faction mistake in that SW/GK/DA/BA don't have permission or mention at all in the book.
- If SW/GK/DA/B were supposed to get the goodies in their own supplement, there is a faction mistake in listing the AoD book for the special marine factions.

So marketing hand-waving "no mistake, we meant that" isn't convincing.

From a honesty point of view, I'd prefer if they made a step back and said "oops, our fault, it was supposed to be SM only." but don't think that likely since that'd be admitting to misleading advertising and getting requests for returns started. I don't think there will be another supplement for BA/DA/SW/GK for this, and expect that they'll change the AoD-RAW with a FAQ or Errata that lines those up. Which is likely to run a bit longer than the SM rule, since the four factions are not all as homogenous as the SM with psyker availability. For such a fix to be needed, there needs to be a faction mistake though, either in the rules or in the cards, since they say different things ;-]

From a game balance (hope dies last) point of view, the last thing we need is more "free, bonus, have this one too" love for the blue team. SW and DA are already jaw-droppingly powerful. SM not far behind, no idea about GK. With the various supplements and campaign books, goddies have been raining on the blue team. Often very powerful or ridiculous in combination with "free" or "cheap" pointswise. It's basically every time I play a buddy who brings a knight exalted court or space wolves that he has some new, OP and undercosted toy. In that mindset, where every month brings a buff for your faction or at least your battle-brothers, it does not really surprise me that people play fast and lose with rules, got used to being handsomly blessed and are shocked when some second-class customer disagrees with them being entitled to use the latest delivery for their battle-brothers.