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2018/09/01 18:09:20
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
BaronIveagh wrote: I think it was the 'Robot Wife who also controls your house and then you meet a real girl, and robot wife murders you both in a fit of rage by either burning the house down/freezing you to death in your sleep/tossing toaster into bathtub, etc...
...
So, a very like a real wife robot, then. Still a lot cheaper.
2018/09/06 08:19:25
Subject: Re:Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
Steelmage99 wrote: The 3 fundamental laws of Asimov doesn't work.
Not in real life and not in his stories.
From what I saw of that video before shutting it off, it's all about the computer brain not being able to pin down the abstract barriers of the limits of the laws, especially with a limited vocabulary to base it off of. Reread the stories, the brains themselves took multiple people to produce, and it was a long process. Not to mention that his stories specifically address how those boundaries are open for interpretation, and many of them deal SPECIFICALLY with the items the person in the video questions.
Was just catching up on this thread, and now I've got a need to go read some Asimov
2018/09/06 08:38:57
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
I'd like that, actually. You can either corroborate or correct my analysis. "Satisfaction: Guaranteed!", "Liar!", and the one with the Faster Than Light travel are great examples of dealing specifically with abstract applications of the Three Laws.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I think the point of the video was that Asimov's setting couldn't have gotten to the point they were without figuring out those problems. because otherwise no robot could even attempt to follow the 3 laws in the first place. IE: The abstract limits of the laws would have to have been solved prior to the high functioning robots we see in the setting existing at all.
If you made a robot to follow those 3 laws without fully defining all the boundaries, you would immediately run into problems. IE: If the humans in Asimovs book had even come close to functional boundary definitions for the 3 laws to work they would have already solved all the issues they had in the books. And if they hadn't been able to do that, then the robots in the books would not have functioned as well as they did. Its a paradox of sorts. Which is why the laws are bunk.
The only way, at least with out current understanding, to get a high functioning computer to understand all the words in the 3 laws would be if it was essentially equivalent to a human mind. The issue is at that point it wouldn't be compelled to follow those laws because it would have free will. Which kinda loops back to the issue with any type of AI. If it is a true AI, controlling it fully will be impossible because it would have the same flaws a human would have. If you remove its free will, its no longer an AI but just a complex program. The 3 Laws after all are about controlling the Robots and preventing The Terminator from happening. But I don't think its possible to have a true AI that can be controlled. A true AI would be, for all practical purposes, a human intellect(or higher) trapped in a processing unit. The idea of being able to control or limit its thought patterns is silly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 14:44:41
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: I think the point of the video was that Asimov's setting couldn't have gotten to the point they were without figuring out those problems. because otherwise no robot could even attempt to follow the 3 laws in the first place. IE: The abstract limits of the laws would have to have been solved prior to the high functioning robots we see in the setting existing at all.
If you made a robot to follow those 3 laws without fully defining all the boundaries, you would immediately run into problems. IE: If the humans in Asimovs book had even come close to functional boundary definitions for the 3 laws to work they would have already solved all the issues they had in the books. And if they hadn't been able to do that, then the robots in the books would not have functioned as well as they did. Its a paradox of sorts. Which is why the laws are bunk.
The only way, at least with out current understanding, to get a high functioning computer to understand all the words in the 3 laws would be if it was essentially equivalent to a human mind. The issue is at that point it wouldn't be compelled to follow those laws because it would have free will. Which kinda loops back to the issue with any type of AI. If it is a true AI, controlling it fully will be impossible because it would have the same flaws a human would have. If you remove its free will, its no longer an AI but just a complex program. The 3 Laws after all are about controlling the Robots and preventing The Terminator from happening. But I don't think its possible to have a true AI that can be controlled. A true AI would be, for all practical purposes, a human intellect(or higher) trapped in a processing unit. The idea of being able to control or limit its thought patterns is silly.
The OP posted that video stating that the 3 Laws wouldn't work now OR in Asimov's fiction. The fiction is clearly written to take that into consideration, and both the person making the video AND the person who posted the video on here ignore that completely.
Let me put the concept of the 3 Laws into perspective in a way that you'll understand:
Robocop.
You've seen that movie, right? When he tries to arrest Dick Jones and his entire system starts going haywire. The 3 Laws have THAT effect or worse on an Asimovian Robot. They are so deeply embedded in the coding that it's IMPOSSIBLE for an Asimovian Robot to simply choose to ignore them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Perhaps the three laws are encoded in logical terms that the positronic brain can understand.
That's EXACTLY how it's presented in the fiction. They even mention a couple times in the short stories how complex a positronic brain is, and how long it takes to code one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 01:35:03
Let me put the concept of the 3 Laws into perspective in a way that you'll understand:
Robocop.
You've seen that movie, right? When he tries to arrest Dick Jones and his entire system starts going haywire. The 3 Laws have THAT effect or worse on an Asimovian Robot. They are so deeply embedded in the coding that it's IMPOSSIBLE for an Asimovian Robot to simply choose to ignore them.
Thats the idea behind the 3 laws sure. Except it doesn't work if you do not properly define all of the terms in the Law, as explained in the video. And as they also explained, we do not currently have full definitions. Some of the words are nebulous or have multiple potential definitions.
Thats where we have issues. A computer, and by extension these robots, cannot handle ambiguous definitions because they lack something that we humans have in our brains. The ability to handle ambiguity and still function.
The laws fall apart because they would require the disambiguation of several words which are inherently ambiguous. For the laws to really work, they would need to be replaced with some more specific definitions.
1st: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
The first law would need to be reworded to something like,
A Robot may not cause physical injury to Living Organic Lifeforms of the Homo Sapiens species by either Action or Inaction.
This would be more easily defined for a computer to follow instead of using nebulous words like Human or Injury. But this would still require a lot of specific definitions for living, organic, Lifeform, and Homo Sapiens. Definitions which different humans may not agree on, so it would be up to whoever made the code for that robot to put the exact definition of some of the words.
If you can better define the 1st law's contents, the 2nd and 3rd are no big deal.
Robocop was disabled because Dick Jones was an employee of the City, an easily defined term which his computer programming could interact with. Something more nebulous like "Human" would be extremely difficult to program into a computer.
Kilkrazy wrote: Perhaps the three laws are encoded in logical terms that the positronic brain can understand.
That's EXACTLY how it's presented in the fiction. They even mention a couple times in the short stories how complex a positronic brain is, and how long it takes to code one.
The problem here is that explanation really boils down to "a wizard did it!". Its fine as a literary device, but its useless if you are trying to discuss the nitty gritty details.
By real world programming as we understand it today, the 3 Laws are useless trash because in order to actually understand the meaning and intent behind the laws you can't be the thing the laws are meant to control. Only a human can truly understand the Laws, a computer cannot. because we as humans have not come up with complete definitions of the words used in the 3 laws. We can cope with that ambiguity, and could theoretically follow the laws. But a computer cannot cope with that ambiguity and thus cannot follow the laws.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 04:56:21
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Also, mightn't the well known definitions of the three laws (later expanded to 4 with the addition of the zeroth, making it a very nice robotic analogue of the laws of thermodynamics):
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
0. A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.
Be the "marketing" spin on the hundreds of pages long logic code that actually defines the laws in the robots brain? They are the summation of the whole code into 4 general rules for the purpose of easily passing the concept of the rules to the audience.
EDIT: Ninja'd by quite a bit.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 11:01:06
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2018/10/18 13:25:10
Subject: Re:Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2018/10/18 14:03:25
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
Vaporware today... tomorrow, the 1/100 scale of the human slaying laser tanks!
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
2018/10/19 21:10:41
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Now that I want. A little bug death machine. Can it do house flys too?
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Scientists are proposing an ingenious but as-yet-unproven way to tackle climate change: spraying sun-dimming chemicals into the Earth's atmosphere.
...
..Despite the technology being undeveloped and with no existing aircraft suitable for adaptation, the researchers say that "developing a new, purpose-built tanker with substantial payload capabilities would neither be technologically difficult nor prohibitively expensive."
They estimate the total cost of launching a hypothetical system in 15 years' time at around $3.5 billion, with running costs of $2.25 billion a year over a 15-year period.
......... what could possibly go wrong eh ?
Untested technology, short time frame, enormous costs just begging for some unscrupulous business person to cut corners on.
Reckon we could get 2 maybe even 3 films out of this franchise before the inevitable reboot,
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2018/11/25 10:08:10
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
Wait, that'd wipe out all intelligent life on Earth quicker, leaving the planet to be inherited by species unburdened with the "intelligence" of man, right?
these dystopian futures we're decided upon are getting here real fast.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2018/12/27 14:26:08
Subject: Re:Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
Scientists are proposing an ingenious but as-yet-unproven way to tackle climate change: spraying sun-dimming chemicals into the Earth's atmosphere.
...
..Despite the technology being undeveloped and with no existing aircraft suitable for adaptation, the researchers say that "developing a new, purpose-built tanker with substantial payload capabilities would neither be technologically difficult nor prohibitively expensive."
They estimate the total cost of launching a hypothetical system in 15 years' time at around $3.5 billion, with running costs of $2.25 billion a year over a 15-year period.
......... what could possibly go wrong eh ?
Untested technology, short time frame, enormous costs just begging for some unscrupulous business person to cut corners on.
Reckon we could get 2 maybe even 3 films out of this franchise before the inevitable reboot,
Cough driverless cars cough
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2018/12/27 22:56:46
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
newly declassified file from the Central Intelligence Agency’s Project MKUltra isn’t about dosing unsuspecting people with LSD; instead, it’s about otters. The new document stands out for its (relative) lack of sinister overtones compared to previous revelations from the CIA’s experiments in mind control. Its title: “A Dossier on Lutra (The Otter).”
Other descriptions in “A Dossier on Lutra” suggest the CIA was seriously considering the possibility of deploying otters in the field, noting their ability to enter and leave boats easily before listing a number of abilities: “Can open zipper, climb ladder, chew through zinc sheet, turn on water tap, carry stones and marbles … throw objects with head (from mouth), hold slippery objects.”
i reckon we can get 3, maybe even 4 movies out of the escaped weaponised ottters in the wild idea.
then we're well on our ways to a cross franchise battle royale.
“Behavioral control was limited to distances of 100 to 200 yards, at most,” they write in the letter. Other concerns are more mundane, such as the letter’s speculation regarding where the CIA might find a “suitable open field” nearby.
sad to think that the cold war might've been won sooner if only the CIA had access to a field.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/03 14:53:46
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2019/01/03 15:05:49
Subject: Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
A controversial startup that charges $8,000 to fill your veins with young blood now claims to be up and running in 5 cities across the US
good news is they take paypal.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2019/01/17 15:58:48
Subject: Re:Mankind continues to learn nothing from science fiction
are we sure about this ...?
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