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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 01:53:04
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Franarok wrote:hahaha, not only the bs2, you only can buy that plasma canons on very few units, being the mek gun the only decent xD
As of right this moment the only way you can bring the KMK (Kustom Mega Kannon) is with Mek Gunz (BEST OPTION), Morkanaut (terrible option almost 300pts) or the new fething stupid ork flyer which I will nickname fethstick. Which costs around 180pts upgraded, and ohh did I Mention its an AV10 flyer that can't jink because if it does it loses the ability to fire its fething weapon?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 04:29:18
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Flashy Flashgitz
Armageddon
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Looted wagons with killkannons are cheap pie plates. Yea its 24 inches but its CHEAP. like 65 points base.
Yea seriously though, they want me to buy 3-5 mek guns when they're 60 dollars each? what a joke.
I mean, GW can't have their entire staff with their head in the sand right? Someone has to be aware that the entire internet has a problem with the balance of the ork/csm/nid/ig codexes compared to the other ones. I like to think that someone is going to help us someday.
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"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 04:41:36
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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commander dante wrote:
However the FW support for orks is quite good, some examples are Grot Tanks, Dread Mob List, Kustom Stompa, Mega/Meka Dreads and Buzzgob (300 Point Stompa!!)
Mwhaaa ha ha I'm sorry. Their FW support is abysmal really. Ia8 is no longer supported by them. Sure we use it, but supported na not at all, and that 400pt stopa isn't FW that's just a desperate houserule in order to buff orks a bit.
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Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 14:42:40
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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oldzoggy wrote:commander dante wrote:
However the FW support for orks is quite good, some examples are Grot Tanks, Dread Mob List, Kustom Stompa, Mega/Meka Dreads and Buzzgob (300 Point Stompa!!)
Mwhaaa ha ha I'm sorry. Their FW support is abysmal really. Ia8 is no longer supported by them. Sure we use it, but supported na not at all, and that 400pt stopa isn't FW that's just a desperate houserule in order to buff orks a bit.
Beyond the mek stompa, what good stuff comes from FW for orks? That is an honest question because I don't use forgeworld and the only things I can think of are the stompas and that stupid walker that isn't worth its points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 18:12:09
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Fully-charged Electropriest
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You can make a pretty good shooty Kustom Stompa from the Imperial Armour book and the Gunwagons look good as a Battlewagon/Trukk alternative. Grot Tanks are better than Kans since our 7th codex and Zhadsnark da Rippa is a great warbike-Warboss. Other than that the FW stuff doesn't seem amazing to me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 18:51:23
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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xlDuke wrote:You can make a pretty good shooty Kustom Stompa from the Imperial Armour book and the Gunwagons look good as a Battlewagon/Trukk alternative. Grot Tanks are better than Kans since our 7th codex and Zhadsnark da Rippa is a great warbike-Warboss. Other than that the FW stuff doesn't seem amazing to me.
So FW has A cheaper Stompa (not game breaking since the current stompa is 200-300pts over priced), Gunwagonz which are ok as alternative, cheaper then BW and tougher then Trukkz, Grot Tanks which are basically Killa Kanz with horrible movement for a tracked vehicle (roll 2D6 to get how far you can move, garbage) but the upside is that they are 30pts a model and for 10pts more can pack a grotzooka, one of the better weapons in the ork codex. Then you have Zhadsnark who is good, but only because Ork Bikers are one of the better units in our otherwise unusable codex.
I forgot about a number of these. And I also looked over the FW weapons/units and upgrades and even that made me cringe :(
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 18:58:29
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Fully-charged Electropriest
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SemperMortis wrote:xlDuke wrote:You can make a pretty good shooty Kustom Stompa from the Imperial Armour book and the Gunwagons look good as a Battlewagon/Trukk alternative. Grot Tanks are better than Kans since our 7th codex and Zhadsnark da Rippa is a great warbike-Warboss. Other than that the FW stuff doesn't seem amazing to me.
So FW has A cheaper Stompa (not game breaking since the current stompa is 200-300pts over priced), Gunwagonz which are ok as alternative, cheaper then BW and tougher then Trukkz, Grot Tanks which are basically Killa Kanz with horrible movement for a tracked vehicle (roll 2D6 to get how far you can move, garbage) but the upside is that they are 30pts a model and for 10pts more can pack a grotzooka, one of the better weapons in the ork codex. Then you have Zhadsnark who is good, but only because Ork Bikers are one of the better units in our otherwise unusable codex.
I forgot about a number of these. And I also looked over the FW weapons/units and upgrades and even that made me cringe :(
Yeah those units are the ones that standout as good to me, the Battle Fortresses (a few different varieties of Super Heavy Transports) could be decent as well. It's a really old book and the game was very different back then from what I hear. If it ever gets updated we made might be in for a bit of luck with improved units and altered costs. That's a big "if" though, it was removed from Forgeworld's website last December (if memory serves) and I haven't seen anything about an update since then. As it stands a lot of the rules are too old and too clunky in 7th edition for my liking so I steer clear of most the IA units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/09 20:06:40
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Been Around the Block
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I just want to throw my 2 cents in about more cover on the table being beneficial. I have found with my daemons, orks, and Tyranids, that more terrain can be a double edged sword.
Difficult terrain slows your army down, causes you to bottle neck your forces, and form queues, especially if going horde. Though it can provide cover and block LOS, wrecked vehicles in the wrong place or trapped units can also make it a nightmare. It's also a good way for small units to dominate horde armies piecemeal with counter assaults.
Not that I'm a master ork tactician or anything. I just love horde armies
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Hunger... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 00:25:48
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Norn Queen Yurei wrote:I just want to throw my 2 cents in about more cover on the table being beneficial. I have found with my daemons, orks, and Tyranids, that more terrain can be a double edged sword.
Difficult terrain slows your army down, causes you to bottle neck your forces, and form queues, especially if going horde. Though it can provide cover and block LOS, wrecked vehicles in the wrong place or trapped units can also make it a nightmare. It's also a good way for small units to dominate horde armies piecemeal with counter assaults.
Not that I'm a master ork tactician or anything. I just love horde armies
That, exactly that. Everyone keeps touting MORE TERRAIN but they fail to realize that the enemy benefits from it just as much as the ork player does. And in some situations even more so, Eldar/Tau can jump out, shoot you and then jump back behind cover, so that they only possible way to kill them is to assault them, which will be costly because his unit keeps depleting your unit while you can only run forward and take it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 00:49:19
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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IA8 is amazing. It is everyting an ork player would like to use. But its all written for 5th edition. FW has currently 0 ork models written for the 7th edition rules / new ork codex.
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Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 01:13:48
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Brother SRM wrote:They're not terribly survivable, and everything gets to hit before them in close combat, even Guardsmen.
This. If you look at an ork, there is no way he is ST3 and I2. A REAL Ork would be ST5 and I6 or so (Yes, I know, 40k isn't "real") but st3/I2? Just, um, no.
Is a Burna boy (6+ save, st3) really worth 16 points? really? Is a killa kan really worth 25? Nob 18? too much of our codex is just like that, and anytime we get something good (Green Tide, Melta Bombs) GW in their infinite wisdom deletes it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 01:39:18
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Flashy Flashgitz
Armageddon
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JimOnMars wrote: Brother SRM wrote:They're not terribly survivable, and everything gets to hit before them in close combat, even Guardsmen.
This. If you look at an ork, there is no way he is ST3 and I2. A REAL Ork would be ST5 and I6 or so (Yes, I know, 40k isn't "real") but st3/I2? Just, um, no.
Is a Burna boy (6+ save, st3) really worth 16 points? really? Is a killa kan really worth 25? Nob 18? too much of our codex is just like that, and anytime we get something good (Green Tide, Melta Bombs) GW in their infinite wisdom deletes it.
I'm reminded of a discussion I had with a guy on this forum where he was explaining that orks are supposed to be as durable as wet paper because books and the Space Marine video game had space marines chopping orks up with no resistance.
I mean, we're clearly the NPC badguy race so why should we be anything but cannon fodder?
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"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 01:52:04
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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hahaha, true
Green tide? the orks players actually use a formation? no no no, it cant be, delete it
Oh, they use tankbustas and actually they kill tanks with them? no no no, the orks cant kill high armored tanks, will faq it.
Invulnerable saves on IC? no no no, we already gave them poor armor and iniciative to make them die agains marines before attack....we cant allow something like a invulnerable saves an ork.
Oh, orks loves lootas.....will more them to heavy support , that way can use elite slots on BURNAS! xD
Orks used kans instead dreads? mini-dreads of WS 2 and BS 3 with F11? to much op, will raise the cost 20 points, reduce the S of the melee atacks by 3 and add some kind of coward rule.
Oh, we love the idea of create a new marine flyer....but we should do something to orks to avoid hate.....but the ork must be more expensive, have less number of weapons and the orkweapon choices wil lbe mostly garbage. Ah, also the marine will be F12 and the ork just F10
Will create new psi powers for marines, they only had all the big book ones in addittion some special ones...clearly very few. for ork we gave one psi table that is garbage, muahahhaa
And orks having something "similar" to "and they shall no rules"?? no no no, will create a new garbage mob rule
Ok ok ok, i know comparison between armies is odd...but hell, I love the army and I feel really dow because how GW treat orks players
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 01:52:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 08:09:30
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You are forgetting the lifta wagon, the big suiggoth, and the codex biker list ; ) Automatically Appended Next Post: A you got a tank that can destroy vehiclces with ease. Lets make is so that it never hit again.
You got cheap monsterous transport. Lets raise the points to just under landraider lv.
So you like to build biker lists do you lets remove all characters who make you do this .
By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 08:12:32
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 09:48:46
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Dakka Veteran
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Someone was talking about a "tellyporta" which is mentioned in background texts - where have you read about this and is it a well known thing amongst ork fans?
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 11:11:08
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Been Around the Block
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Chaospling wrote:Someone was talking about a "tellyporta" which is mentioned in background texts - where have you read about this and is it a well known thing amongst ork fans?
Nazdreg + PIscina IV? His prototype before the 3rd Amageddon War?
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Hunger... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 17:15:20
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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oldzoggy wrote:You are forgetting the lifta wagon, the big suiggoth, and the codex biker list ; )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A you got a tank that can destroy vehiclces with ease. Lets make is so that it never hit again.
You got cheap monsterous transport. Lets raise the points to just under landraider lv.
So you like to build biker lists do you lets remove all characters who make you do this .
By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.
Anything that was orky and fun was removed. (E.G. Ramshackle)
Anything that was competitive was removed. (Deff Rolla, Wazdakka, Cybork)
What is left is a shell of a codex designed for players to have all of the fun of playing the NPC that is always doomed to lose.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 18:07:55
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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SemperMortis wrote: oldzoggy wrote:You are forgetting the lifta wagon, the big suiggoth, and the codex biker list ; ) Automatically Appended Next Post: A you got a tank that can destroy vehiclces with ease. Lets make is so that it never hit again. You got cheap monsterous transport. Lets raise the points to just under landraider lv. So you like to build biker lists do you lets remove all characters who make you do this . By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much. Anything that was orky and fun was removed. (E.G. Ramshackle) Anything that was competitive was removed. (Deff Rolla, Wazdakka, Cybork) What is left is a shell of a codex designed for players to have all of the fun of playing the NPC that is always doomed to lose. Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 18:08:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 18:13:17
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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oldzoggy wrote:By mork if we just had 50 pts big squiggoths again that would help so much.
All GW has to do is change 1 freaking little number and I will empty my wallet.
I for the life of me can't understand why they don't do this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 20:35:46
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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jreilly89 wrote:
Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!
You should start a whole new thread on this one. There's gona be a heck of a fierce competition for the №1 CSM Whiner.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 20:50:19
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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Is Martel vs Semper the new Stormtroopers vs Redshirts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/10 23:22:18
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jreilly89 wrote:
Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!
Said the Marine Player hiding behind his wall of 2+ rerollable cover saves and abundance of other great options. But please continue to explain how me pointing out the flaws in my army and wishing for better rules is whining. I remember a fair amount of DA players "whining" before this edition and their recent codex update.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/11 00:16:59
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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RogueSangre
The Cockatrice Malediction
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Don Savik wrote:I mean, GW can't have their entire staff with their head in the sand right? Someone has to be aware that the entire internet has a problem with the balance of the ork/ csm/nid/ ig codexes compared to the other ones. I like to think that someone is going to help us someday.
This will never be fixed until the studio abandons this Forge the Narrative crap and realizes that 40k is a wargame with 2 players who both would like an even chance at winning, not an RPG with 2 GMs and no players. Because in The Narrative some armies are winners and others are losers. How many novels do you know of when Orks win?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/11 01:46:36
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Been Around the Block
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I don't think we should devolve to petty name calling when there are legitimate complaints and frustrations felt by customers. I too felt the Ork codex, however weak in the last edition, was needlessly downgraded this time around.
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Hunger... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/11 01:52:49
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Flashy Flashgitz
Armageddon
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Don Savik wrote:I mean, GW can't have their entire staff with their head in the sand right? Someone has to be aware that the entire internet has a problem with the balance of the ork/ csm/nid/ ig codexes compared to the other ones. I like to think that someone is going to help us someday.
This will never be fixed until the studio abandons this Forge the Narrative crap and realizes that 40k is a wargame with 2 players who both would like an even chance at winning, not an RPG with 2 GMs and no players. Because in The Narrative some armies are winners and others are losers. How many novels do you know of when Orks win?
Uh...I guess I'll get started then.
Its called " Da Biggest Ork"
Once der was an ork.
He was da biggest and meanest ork of dem all.
One day he punched all da 'umies and they died.
The End.
It'll be a popup book eventually. With tabs you pull to send the 'umies heads flying.
(black library hire me)
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"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/11 08:57:25
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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SemperMortis wrote:I know I for one have a couple ideas about what is wrong with the Orks in 7th edition, but I would like to hear from the community at large, what is the biggest weakness of the Ork Codex?
My opinion is that we are an assault oriented army that doesn't have any of the cool new assault things. Like Assaulting from deep strike, assaulting from outflank, assaulting from anything pretty much except a trukk/battlewagon. And even then when we do get to assault we are only good for 1 turn before we drop back down to S3 on Boyz and S4 on Nobz.
Another glaring weakness in our codex is we don't have a single HQ worth a damn do to not having an invul save. So the only way to get your IC a save against power weapons is with a painboy giving you a 5+ FNP which you don't get against S10 weapons.
So anyway, what do you think is the biggest weakness/problem with the ork dex.
Well... I like orks. i don't play them that often but now that i own some, I have really enjoyed them.
In my games and this is just personal experience, but the only weakness i usually see is that Orks do not crack the really big armor very well. We also don't challenge 2+ and re-rollable type Invul saves very well. I got tied up by a Wraithguard unit and a couple of characters for a WHILE with a 30 man blob with a Nob. It was a little odd because everything needed 6's to wound. So i was pouring dice by the bucketload onto the table but ultimately causing about 1, maaaaaybe 2 unsaved wounds a phase. Now I am not totally against this since the Wraithguard are supposed to be tough (they were the sword and board ones) but it reminded me of playing Necron Scarabs where you essentially lose every round of combat until the enemy is dead. Lol.
the irony in that cannot be lost on anyne.
Now to be fair i tabled that guy and so it was not as if the end result wasnt satisfactory But I will admit that it seemed pretty amazing that we were stuck in that combat for three game turns. That's a pretty long time to get a decisive victory over something in close combat by almost any measure.
What can be done? Well whittling. Whittling is what can be done if you have the shooting to do it in the army. And that is the true dichotomy. Orks who are a Melee army really are avery good in the role of a shooting army! I have had so muh success when i commited them more to shooting, even though its really not as fun. But it is true that shooting stuff with orks actually works if you're committed to the task.
So i dunno whats to be done about it. orks are already so fun to play that its hard for me to want to change them over much. But i think Ard Boyz being more affordable would probably be a really good step in the right directions. Maybe only 2 points for Eavy armor?
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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/11 16:01:15
Subject: Re:What is Wrong with Orks?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Those are good points Jancoran. The shooting aspect of orks is definitely a problem. Lootas being a unit that could be fixed so easily by making it D3+1 shots a turn instead of the D3 that it currently is. (10 lootas with 4 shots each = 40 shots, with ork shooting that is about 13-14 hits at S7.)
Mek Gunz are another unit that could be fixed by simply giving them access to git findaz and fixing the ridiculous rules for most of the guns they have. Zzap gunz, Bubble Chuckas and the Smasha gun would be worth taking if they weren't so terrible with the random dice rolling. Maybe changing Smasha Gunz from S4+D6 to S7+D3 would alleviate the weapon going from useless against any armor 11+ to being an effective anti-vehicle weapon. The Zzap gun is the same thing S2D6 is just ridiculous for a single shot weapon. your either going to be swinging for the fences with an amazing shot S10 or you just bounced a S2 shot off the front armor of a rhino. And the BubbleChucka should be S6 AP D6, because as it stands shooting a S1 AP1 large blast is kind of pointless.
Flash Gitz are another model that is good at shooting but terrible in the game, over priced, random AP means your never sure of what they are going to do and with a 6+ save on such an expensive model.......yeah not worth the risk of using this. Another side note is that the only effective way to use these guys is in a battlewagon or a trukk and when that thing blows up your going to lose a fair amount of points. And even if you dont lose anyone to a vehicle explosion your going to be shot off the table with ease the next turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/11 17:27:38
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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koooaei wrote: jreilly89 wrote:
Wait, so if Martel is the one always complainig about BA, is Semper the one who will always complain about Orks? If so, we need to fill in someone for each faction!
You should start a whole new thread on this one. There's gona be a heck of a fierce competition for the №1 CSM Whiner.
I'll happily volunteer as representative for the Black Templars.
What's that? We're not our own faction anymore?
EXACTLY!
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/12 01:38:27
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Panama
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Test the One Page 40K rules, forget GW rules.
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Keep up the fight! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/05/12 02:10:20
Subject: What is Wrong with Orks?
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Angelic Adepta Sororitas
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I don't understand these threads... Orks are actually very good still... Yeah, they don't have all the cool toys and rules, and they are missing invuls, but otherwise they are solid.
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