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I play BAs against my buddies orks. A cad with sm formations. I use a Librarius conclave and the formation with land speeders & whirlwinds. The rest is tac & jump marines. I almost always table him.

GW needs to fix mob rule really badly and power up Elite and Heavy Support choice a little. Ork vehicle's also need a little something, idk what, but a little something. Lower the cost of Boyz by one point. Change the number of special weapons ratio to one per 5 Boyz. One unit of basic Boyz should be able to get 'eavy armor for 1 point a piece. They should also bring back Scar boyz. Thats 1 unit per army that can get a +1 Str, I'd say for 1 point. That way ork players could get one unit of demi nobz for 8 points an ork.

I'll compare them to IG, which aren't quite as weak but focus on the same MOAR MODELS theme. I won't compare them to nids, because most good nid players have a circus instead of a horde.

The thing is, both armies focus on having waves and waves of garbage units. Small units are vulnerable to leadership tests, basic troops have terrible armor, and they aren't particularly powerful except in huge numbers.

Guard, however, can do decent shooting en masse. It works, because they can be 24" away and still put out 100 shots with first rank. This also lets them sit in cover which, while there is a lot of ignores cover, they're somewhat safe chilling out in the backfield. On top of that, heavy tank support.

Now orks. They have garbage shooting, so the only way they can do heavy killing is to get up close. This is they key weakness. A foot blob of orks has terrible armor or you overpay for armor, so they get gunned down by the hundreds trying to cross the field. In vehicles, you're running small squads. Vehicle pops, your orks now have terrible leadership and crumble.

You either get shooty armies that you never get in combat with (eldar, tau, certain marine builds, sort of guard) or you get armies that also excel in CC (various marine builds, demons) that beat you in init and you die before you swing. Then there's necrons who are sort of rounded and they still murder you. Every army has something that beats orks, because orks can't get close to shooting and can't match other melee focused armies.

Long story short, everyone does something better than them. Unless they get more durable or stop running away or get better at melee (which is weak in the edition to begin with) they'll lose to most armies.

 Btothefnrock wrote:
I don't understand these threads... Orks are actually very good still... Yeah, they don't have all the cool toys and rules, and they are missing invuls, but otherwise they are solid.

Said no Ork Player ever.

We are a close combat army without invul saves in Close combat. We are a close combat army that relies on S3 boyz. We are a close combat army that isn't fearless. The list goes on, but hey your right, there is nothing wrong.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Now orks. They have garbage shooting, so the only way they can do heavy killing is to get up close. This is they key weakness. A foot blob of orks has terrible armor or you overpay for armor, so they get gunned down by the hundreds trying to cross the field. In vehicles, you're running small squads. Vehicle pops, your orks now have terrible leadership and crumble.

Which is why the Green Tide was so awesome. You could take a couple of armored units and distribute the armor in a tactical way...away from AP4 or better and near the lasguns.

The potential for Actual Tactics was awesome. Don't even get me started on multi-charge blobology...an AWESOME science.

But of course that was deleted.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Now orks. They have garbage shooting, so the only way they can do heavy killing is to get up close. This is they key weakness. A foot blob of orks has terrible armor or you overpay for armor, so they get gunned down by the hundreds trying to cross the field. In vehicles, you're running small squads. Vehicle pops, your orks now have terrible leadership and crumble.

Which is why the Green Tide was so awesome. You could take a couple of armored units and distribute the armor in a tactical way...away from AP4 or better and near the lasguns.

The potential for Actual Tactics was awesome. Don't even get me started on multi-charge blobology...an AWESOME science.

But of course that was deleted.

Wholeheartedly agree, Green Tide was really fun the one time I played against it. It was a close loss on my part, only one point apart, and almost nothing for either of us left on the table. Blobology truly is a great thing... rest in pieces, poor Green Tide.

How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

We also need to bring back "Mobbing up". That was where a mob that was at or below 25% of original strength could combine with another unit. They simply merged. This could keep tiny units from scarpering off the board.

 Red Marine wrote:
How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

Yea. The 'certain size' should be 1.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

Yea. The 'certain size' should be 1.

Nope.

Mob size and ork leadership has always been a problem for orks. Its their Achilles heel, its in the fluff.

There is nothing wrong with Orks.
Now hear me out.
The game changed around our codex and our codex never adjusted to the changes.
Shooting became more powerful than assault.
Challanges and target priority was added to the game killing our linchpin ICs.
Trukks were nerfed with ramshackle changes
Mob rule was nerfed from fearless.
And on and on until our codex just didn't work well with the current rules.

Str3 ap- assault spam failed to keep up with the numerous assault oriented units with better and better saves. 2+ is no longer the toughest armour in the galaxy And units with tougher more numerous attacks just steamed rolled a blob of tshirts wearing low str no ap assault blobs. Sadly this is the same problem guard have.

There are numerous threads on how to update aka fix Orks so I won't get to much into it here.

Personally I think Orks need ICs that act as force multipliers.
We need cheap painboys (25pts) who can be added to groups of boys for 5+ fnp to go along with a painboss HQ that grants a fnp buff (such as reroll) and can access an upgraded doc tools that acts like a poisened PK (seriously his fist is huge on that model)
We need nobs to come with each group of boys for free and affordable PKs (15pts) to go with warbosses who can waaagh each turn
We need(15pt) meks who can purchase affordable killsaws (20pts) and affordable kffs (35pts)(that gives a 5++ to shooting and works on friendly models within 6in) these can go with big mek warlords who can make dreads obj secured.
I'd like cheap ML1 weirdboyz who have access to a orc psychic power that increases str+2 of a unit.
And ml2 warpeads like the current pskyer with access to the above spell as well.
I'd like to see most ork named characters as squad upgrades except for ghaz (still LoW) and Maddoc (painboss hq upgrade).

I'd like stickbomb flinga 10pt options on all ork vehicles for a 5++ on the first glance or pen each turn. (Seriously the current stickbomb launcher rules are useless and each model already has access to a bit that can easily represent this.)

I'd like ere we go on all ork models including dreads.

I'd like cybork to be a +1 fnp modifier

I'd prefer if the mob rule table was just redone and the waagh supplement gave +2 making it a benefit instead of detriment.

Something like
1- unit fails morale test
2-3- if unit has a character it suffers 1d6 str4 ap-hits and automatically pass if not see 1
4- if unit is in combat automatically pass if not see 3
5- units of 10 or more automatically pass if not see 4
6+- unit is fearless until end of turn

Boss pole adds +1 to roll.
Ghaz supplement adds +2 to roll but increases the breaking heads result +3 hits (a roll of 2-3 on above chart).

Do the above changes and Adjust the cost on a few units And Orks would be a decent codex.

 Red Marine wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
How about a special rule that allows ork units of a certain size to ignore the penalties of multi charging? As part of Mob Rules mobs of 20+ ignore that penalty.

Yea. The 'certain size' should be 1.

Nope.

Mob size and ork leadership has always been a problem for orks. Its their Achilles heel, its in the fluff.

Yes, but disordered charges are what the orks do best. It fits their combat style. No ork was ever worried that his left flank is exposed or whether his line was dressed while he swings his choppa, so the idea that he should reduce the number or strength of his swings in those cases is just silly.

Orks receive both confidence and psychic benefits when there's a lot of them. Plus charging 2 separate units that outnumber you, while under overwatch fire is daunting to say the least. Its a benefit similar to the ones received when using a full unit in otjer codexes. I'm also proposing this with the idea of reinstating Mobbing Up.

That makes sense, the orks should have some advantages of large units apart from the opportunity to kill yourselves. I just wouldn't use the disordered charge benefit for that. Even if they had a graduated scale of leadership bonuses like

10-14 +1
15-19 +2
20-24 +3
25+ fearless

that would be pretty fun and awesome, yet still give the opponent some hope after the orks get whittled down. I read somewhere that GW got serious grumbling from other factions about fearless orks. It's too bad their complaints got heard and ours get ignored.

If I had to pick one thing, I would say Trukks.
Core infantry choice relies on an AV10 transport to get into CC with a 12 maximum capacity.

Runner ups are no close combat invulnerable saves.

Might have posted this already, but Orks are OK, aside a few questionable rules. It's the external balance that's the problem.

You look at Orks, IG, BA and DE and they can all stand up against each other. You could probably through in CSM, SW (no TWC) and Tyranids (no Flyrants) in there too. Against any 2015 Codex (including Khorne Daemonkin, because they do combat way better and can rock Fear which Orks are vulnerable too), it's an uphill battle.

Well, almost all the units of the codex are overpriced. Some just a bit and others greatly overpriced

Also the S3 on an ork sucks (and is irreal, looks those arms!). If someone charge you or you dont win the battle on your assault....you are terrible fethed

The resistance of the army is terrible. Long long long ago when the weapons were not soo destructive as today, that was logic: you are soft but you have to many to get killed.... But now the armies can kill buckets of orks in a turn... Think the ork codex was designed for the 4th edition xDD

The walkers are terrible

The psiquic poers are poor.

The lack of invulnerables make our IC the fun of the melee IC


so many things.... The army sucks....and that hurt me since i love them xD

If something, mob rule and ramshackle are buffs compared to previous versions. That's not where the problems lie at all.

 koooaei wrote:
If something, mob rule and ramshackle are buffs compared to previous versions. That's not where the problems lie at all.

Trolling or serious? sometimes it is hard to tell with people on Dakka. I know when the codex first dropped everyone thought the New Mob rule was a buff and now it has finally become common knowledge that it is utter trash and ruined a lot of ork builds.

And for Ramshackle....that is physically impossible. Turning a pen into a glance on a 6 is not even close to as useful as the old ramshackle table....nor is it as fun.

I don't find mob rule all that terrible, actually. It's not bad for smaller squads. I'm not as familiar with the old mob rule, but it apparently screwed over small squads even worse than the current one. Sure, it hurts when my boyz die due to a failed morale test but at least my MANz or small tankbusta squads won't just run if they fail their morale.

Can't comment on ramshackle, though. I have literally no idea what it used to do.

One great use of trukks, if you have a lot. drive them 24 inches and park them 1" away from the enemy. If they shoot it, it blows them up too.

30 points isn't that bad for a 24" bomb.

I push two trucks on my "slow flank" in order to provide cover while I trudge behind it. Its pretty effective on tournament tables as there is usually an LOSW blocker that the trucks an form a wall with. It makes it a lot easier to bring the orks to the fight this way.

My last game was against a Battle Company

morfydd wrote:
Orks like AM are competative at low point games (750-) and High point games (3500+) but suck in between

Hahahahaha.
WraithKnight 295
Warlock on bike 50
3x Scatbikes for 81

Youre so cute.

That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

 koooaei wrote:
If something, mob rule and ramshackle are buffs compared to previous versions. That's not where the problems lie at all.

Koooaei, how can you say this is a buff? Brother you know better.
Trukk pops.
Boyz die
Fail pinning Test
boyz die
>25% dead in shooting
Boyz die.

Its like your opponents work is done for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jancoran and morfydd... Youre right I apologize. Nerd rage misdirected

 doktor_g wrote:

Koooaei, how can you say this is a buff? Brother you know better.
Trukk pops.
Boyz die
Fail pinning Test
boyz die
>25% dead in shooting
Boyz die.

The difference is that in previous edition when truck popped, you just got pinned. And pinned boyz are worse than a few more dead boyz. Now you can loose a few boyz and still stay a threat. Furthermore, 'ard boyz and meganobz now have a chance to NOT run away or get pinned. And this chance is 5/9. That's the thing that made them actually playable. The focus has shifted from naked boyz to armored boyz and meganobz. And i like it cause it's fewer bodies. Too tired of hordes by this point.

Mob rule is only worse for larger squads. But let's be fair. Our large squads are hordes of footslogging boyz and hordes suck since 6-th. The only viable horde was Greentide and they were fearless via bosspole. Current mob rule is >> than previous mob rule for smaller squads. That's my math. So, all in all, it's benefical. The only real drawback is fear tests.

As for trukks, they now have a chance to save against a freaking D-weapon. And they're 5 pt cheaper than they used to be. Old ramshackle was fun but it wasn't too good. s3 explosion hits was simply a loophole back from...4-th ed i think. Ramshackle with s4 explosion would be worse than no ramshackle at all now. Don't forget than trukks will get wrecked more often than explosed now. And ramshackle worked on any destroyed result.

Nothing is wrong with the Orks, is the Eldar, Space Marine, Necrons, and GKs that need to be walloped with a nerf bat. Their biggest problem is the same as the Imperial Guard's, you have to spam units to make things work, and you don't have near the variety of problem solving vehicles and equipment other armies have.

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
That was kinda rude.

Also as an aside: It was Hammer and Anvil and I did table this fellow. Just saying. His Battle Company and all his free stuff couldn't save him. His Whirlwinds couldn't save him. He would be the first to tell you that codex's don't win Champinships. Orks win championships. Hehehe..

In all serous, orks are a tougher one to win with but it can be done and it will be done. =)

Ah yes, who could forget all those times Orks won LVO and BAO? Yeah it can be done, but that doesn't mean A) you have to be extremely lucky and B) it's not hard as hell.

Anyone winning the BAO had to be lucky. its a dice game.

And it being harder...I think...was pretty clearly acknowledged so i dont know why you're bothering to say so.

But sure.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:


Can't comment on ramshackle, though. I have literally no idea what it used to do.

The big thing about the old ramshackle was it still had S3 explode damage. Also, you could possibly avoid having an explodes result (I think it downgraded to a wreck) and there was kareen, which sent the wreckage flying in a random direction determined by scatterdie.

Overall, it was FAR superior to the garbage 6+ downgrade to a glance rule. Maybe if they made it a 5+ it would be okay. Even then, just give Trukks AV11 and be done with it.

Better yet what Orks really need is the Gunwagon and mid-tier AV13 wagon from the Forgeworld book. Both of those sound great. Looted Wagons should be Fast Attack/dedicated transport options. Trukks just don't cut the mustard and I hesitate to even get engaged in this army for that reason. 12 models? It made sense when there were hidden power klaws.

I mis careening into stuff. Even your own stuff.

I think I have a few ideas for 'fixing' Orks:

First of all, make Boyz S4. It's ridiculous that they're as strong as simple 'umies.

Maybe lower the price to 5 points.

Maybe they should be able to buy a Big Choppa for every 5 Orks in the squad.

Maybe lower Nob prices?

Also, implement some sort of Chaos Mark system but for Ork clans. Maybe 4 different ones, each giving a buff applying to its corresponding tribe. Maybe

Evil Sunz/Red Paint Job: Unit may run 6 inches and charges 6+1D6 inches

Deathskulls/Blue Paint: Unit may re-roll any die once a turn.

Goffs/Armour Plates: Units receives a 6+ FnP

Bad Moons/Teef: Not sure about this one. How do you implement richness into a game?

Also, what about a Dakka Dakka rule for Big Shootas and other big guns? Maybe for every pair ofsixes youg et when rolling makes the target go to ground.

Does this sound good?