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This is a change to the rules for Rapid Fire weapons that I think would be quite helpful. Something needs to be done to trim down the amount of dice rolling in 40k. I have been thinking of entire overhauls of the rules to fix this but I think that a change to weapon rules like this one could do the trick and slot into the current rules quite nicely. My idea behind this is that most basic shooting that units are trained should not require a Ballistic Skill check. BS checks should just be for more difficult shooting and the use of special weaponry.

So for Rapidfire weapons:
Strength 1-5: Only one shot is made if the unit is in half range but the roll to hit skipped and each shot is immediately resolved for wound. Shots may still miss but this is represented by the shots failing the roll to wound. If the target is beyond half the range of the weapon then roll to hit normally before rolling to wound.

For strength 6-10 I think the rule should just stay the same as it is now to prevent a major nerf to plasma guns, rail rifles and the like. One could explain this by these advanced weapons are more difficult to use, but are more devastating.

The effect of course is that you're not rolling nearly as many dice, you're not rolling them twice, and the mean number of hits/wounds is still roughly the same. With models of BS 2-4 the change in the chance to hit/wound is no more than 1/6, and in reality I don't think BS should/would make that much difference for close-range shooting with these weapons. There is still the question of overwatch, I'm wondering if a -3 penalty to strength for shooting in overwatch at close range would do the trick. Otherwise this might work well in a game type with alternating activations like the one I'm working on.

I am also working on a change to basic close combat weapons that is slightly similar to this, but one can't just ditch WS without affecting the balance..

To many problems.

What happens when a units fires at a FMC within rapid fire range ? do they all get 1 auto hit ?

What happens when the unit is firing they are bs5 ? they are now losing hits.

Well I think snap firing should be removed from the game. If a heavy weapon has moved or if something is "hard to hit" then the unit should be prevented from firing altogether. The same goes for overwatch. Snap firing should never have been added to 40k. It's just a piece of lazy game design that makes a mockery of the players by making them waste their time on nearly useless dices rolls.
In the case of BS5 models they are either firing a strength 1-5 weapon in which case their shots will be the same as the regular units and it's not going to make a worthwhile difference, or they are going to be using a high strength weapon, which I have catered for.

What about twin-linked weapons?

That is a good question @raverrn. I figure that one would just make it re-rolls to wound. I have put it through the Mathhammer Android app and the average result comes out the same. I know that this change does reduce the maxima of these shooting attacks and change the bell curve, but it does maintain the average.

Bring it back to 5th edition rules. If you move, you only get one shot at half range.

Why do bolters and lasguns need to be nerfed?

Traditio wrote:
Why do bolters and lasguns need to be nerfed?

When was the last time your Imperial Guard firing line moved? This is an overall nerf to basic troops in general.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Why do bolters and lasguns need to be nerfed?

When was the last time your Imperial Guard firing line moved? This is an overall nerf to basic troops in general.

Why do basic troops need to be nerfed?

Traditio wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Why do bolters and lasguns need to be nerfed?

When was the last time your Imperial Guard firing line moved? This is an overall nerf to basic troops in general.

Why do basic troops need to be nerfed?

To appease your nerfing needs.

Edit: I jest of course, but certain troops get ridiculous with their rapid fire weapons. Eldar, Necrons and Tau being prime specimen.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Bring it back to 5th edition rules. If you move, you only get one shot at half range.

Precisely, and that's not the only thing I miss from 5th.

Also @Traditio I don't think this is a nerf. Yes it does reduce the theoretical maximum amount of damage that rapid fire weapons can do, but in terms of averages it doesn't change anything at all. Too much of this game is built around allowing for improbable extremes. Don't get me wrong, the improbable extremes can be incredibly fun, even when it means things go horribly for me. You will still get some with this new rule, but we could afford a compromise in a few places to make this game more fun.

It's a massive nerf. With space marine sternguard, using IF chapter tactics, I can expect, if 5 marines are firing hellfire rounds within rapidfire range:

10/1 X 5/6 X 5/6 = 250/36 - 125/18

I can expect, statistically speaking, on average, 7 wounds out of 10 shots.

Under your rubrics, I could only expect, statistically, on average:

5/1 X 5/5 X 5/6 = 125/30

That's slightly more than 4 wounds.

You just stripped me of roughly half of my sternguards' average firepower.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tactical_Spam wrote:Eldar

What Eldar rapidfire weapons do you have in mind? Dire avengers fire assault weapons.

Necrons

Necrons have balance problems. Their ability to rapidfire 2 rounds within 12 inch range is not one of them.

Tau being prime specimen.

Supra. Tau have balance problems. Rapidfire, as such, is not one of them.

Seriously, who complains about this?

Well first of all 5 Sternguards firing Hellfire rounds will score 6.48 wounds. That's closer to 6 wounds on average, not 7.

Secondly what you have shown me is a specific unit with specific weapons with a specific special rule. No rule change is going to work perfectly but if this is as bad as it gets I think I have done all right. Do remember that this flattens the bell curve a bit too, meaning you are notably more likely to roll those five shots and succeed for all five of them. Especially with those re-rolls from Bolter Drill.

Traditio wrote:


Necrons have balance problems. Their ability to rapidfire 2 rounds within 12 inch range is not one of them.

Tau being prime specimen.

Supra. Tau have balance problems. Rapidfire, as such, is not one of them.

Seriously, who complains about this?

I am a Tau player and I complain about this. There is simply no need for there to be as many dice rolled as there is in this game. It's tedious. Furthermore I never said that this was about balancing the game, I am not trying to do that. This is about making attack resolution less cumbersome and tedious, that's all.

Marksman224 wrote:
Well first of all 5 Sternguards firing Hellfire rounds will score 6.48 wounds. That's closer to 6 wounds on average, not 7

I'm assuming Imperial Fists chapter tactics.

Thus the numbers:

125/18 = 6.94

To be clear:

10/1 (number of shots) X 5/6 (roughly the chance of hitting, which is on a 3+, rerolling 1s) X 5/6 (the chance of wounding, which is on a 2+) = 250/36, which again renders 6.94 repeating.

I suppose we could quibble over the precise fraction which should represent a 3+ to hit roll which rerolls on 1s, but meh?

Secondly what you have shown me is a specific unit with specific weapons with a specific special rule. No rule change is going to work perfectly but if this is as bad as it gets I think I have done all right. Do remember that this flattens the bell curve a bit too, meaning you are notably more likely to roll those five shots and succeed for all five of them. Especially with those re-rolls from Bolter Drill.

This is my other problem with your proposal. Why should an ork firing a rapidfire weapon (presupposing such a thing exists) effectively fire at the same BS, within rapidfire distance, as an imperial fist marine firing a bolter? You are making BS 2 virtually equivalent to BS 5 or better (for all intents and purposes) in rapidfire distance.

Dislike.

I am a Tau player and I complain about this. There is simply no need for there to be as many dice rolled as there is in this game. It's tedious. Furthermore I never said that this was about balancing the game, I am not trying to do that. This is about making attack resolution less cumbersome and tedious, that's all.

It's not fire warriors that's the problem. Tau should certainly fire less shots, but again, fire warriors aren't the ones that really need to be nerfed a whole lot. Riptides, broadsides and crisis suits? Different story.

From a marine perspective, this is a needless nerf which would make us even worse against MCs et al.

Traditio wrote:


This is my other problem with your proposal. Why should an ork firing a rapidfire weapon (presupposing such a thing exists) effectively fire at the same BS, within rapidfire distance, as an imperial fist marine firing a bolter? You are making BS 2 virtually equivalent to BS 5 or better (for all intents and purposes) in rapidfire distance.

I will tell you why. Because it's massed firing with basic weapons at close range that put out a lot of rounds. BS shouldn't make that much difference. It's a complete waste of a players time to put as much dice rolling into resolution of very basic weapons as with specialist soldiers and weaponry in difficult situations.
I would happily take the nerf to my own units - I field space marines as well - if it means a 2000 point game can be played in less than two hours.

This isn't the only change that I think should be made. I just think that making every... single... model... roll multiple dice and have as much focus on its skills as the legendary figures of galactic war is a waste of a players' time. And 40k is the only game that wastes its players' time on a scale like this.

I guess you wouldn't appreciate 30 choppa boyz on the charge..

Yeah, no, I disagree with this rule. It makes the difference between BS somewhat useless - according to this, a BS1 model can hit nearly as well as a BS5 one. This would promote an influx of spamming low BS troops, and higher BS would be useless unless it was on different weapons.

Every roll is important, some more important than others. I'm not advocating rolling for the sake of it, but this ruins the game several ways. It promotes spam of low BS units, taking away any emphasis of BS value. Against Invisibility, it lets you get auto-hits where weapons that fire faster (assault cannons, heavy bolters, scatterlasers) can't even hit.

The problem with your logic of "it's a basic weapon, I shouldn't need to bog down the game" is flawed when you run into certain units.
Sternguard rounds, for instance, are rapid fire, but they should be rolled individually, both to give the victim and the shooter higher chances.
For the sake of Legion Ultramarines, who only need to hit a target to mark it, you give them this freely.
What happens when you have Guard or Tau who are getting an extra shot?

The game could be improved in so many ways and streamlined, but this is not how to do it. BS determines if a shot hits and should - when you start using auto-hits regardless of BS, you're being very harsh to those armies that pay a lot for their high BS (SM, AM Veterans, CSM, etc) and regardless if you're okay with it, I wouldn't be. Orks are bad at shooting, and should be - in no way should they get auto-hits. And I echo the above point - charging Orks generate far more dice than any rapid fire unit does.

An alternative to your idea would be to use averages.
On a BS1 unit, for every 6 Rapid Fire weapons firing, you get 1 auto hit.
On BS2, for every 6 Rapid Firing weapons, you get 2 hits.
So on, until BS5 = 5 out of 6 auto hits.

Make this an optional rule, so that before they shoot with that unit, they must choose between rolling for each shot or averaging. This can streamline the game for you, and not force your opponent, and still allows for situations where someone can miss, or get all hits.

Thank you very much for your feedback guys, I appreciate it. I see your point about the potential for low BS spam Sgt_ Smudge. I have been testing a few different ideas but I guess this is another one that doesn't work.
I just feel like there is so much excess fat in this game that could be trimmed out but I'm not sure where. One reason that the whole hit-then-wound system is that it describes situations that don't make sense. What is actually happening when a guardsman is hit by lascannon but is not killed? If a lascannon made contact with any part of his body I suspect that part would be removed along with a few others, surely taking him out of the battle in any case.
Your averages idea would technically work Sgt_Smudge but I'm not sure that doing the math before each attack would be an appealing prospect.

Another idea I have had, but all attacks is to to replace the required scores on To-Wound table with modifiers.

6+ = -4
5+ = -3
4+ = -2
3+ = -1
2+ = 0

If a model's attacks are already hitting on 6+ for any reason, the modifier is instead applied to their attacks/shots, reducing the number of dice they can roll. It gives a very slight buff, but it's a buff to everything. The idea is that your roll-to-hit is the fundamental roll but it is reduced directly for shots against high toughness targets.