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I wanted to do a WW1 styled army. I like DKOK. I have the Vraks lists for them. However, having not played since 5th, is this army usable in 7th? Or should I use a new Guard codex and just use the DKOK minis?

DKOK lists, imo, are far better than the stock IG lists, and are unique too!

 russian69hitman wrote:
I wanted to do a WW1 styled army. I like DKOK. I have the Vraks lists for them. However, having not played since 5th, is this army usable in 7th? Or should I use a new Guard codex and just use the DKOK minis?

They're "ok" if you overload on artillery and heavy artillery units (the T7 3+sv big guns) and generally take as little infantry as possible. That said, they're hardly fantastic and have a gob of hardcounters.

That said, FW seems to think that an IG army built around disposable assault infantry needs to pay out the nose for said disposable infantry...making them neither disposable nor functional.

They are a worse variant of the Imperial Guard. While they have a few strengths, namely the ability to take heavy and field artillery units (which Imperial Guard can take as well), they have some crippling weaknesses.

First of all, as Vaktathi said, their infantry are not functional. At all. For a 40% increase in cost over a normal guardsman squad, you will never run away from shooting, the ability to always rally when close to an officer, WS4 and krak grenades. You also lose the ability to take heavy weapons in normal squads and the Combined Squads rule. They also lack any form of transport apart from the even more overcosted Gorgon. So what you get are expensive infantry who basically lack any form of firepower (9 lasguns and a special weapons at guardsman ballistic skill are hardly threatening), with no mobility and below average staying power since although they do not take morale checks due to shooting, they are still guardsmen and thus dies to anything that looks at them funny. They are not even better in close combat since normal guardsmen beat them one for one. Grenadiers (Assault brigade) and Engineers (Siege Regiment) are a little better perhaps due to the ability to take transports or be a smaller troop tax, but they are not good.

Their heavy support choices, apart from the artillery, suffers from mostly being vehicles and have all their strengths and weaknesses. If Leman Russes were good, things might be different, but as of now their only real choice are the Heavy Artillery batteries. HAB are very good for their cost, but IG can take them as well for the same price and have better synergy due to superior orders. No Wyverns.

Elites are much better than IG since they can take Hydras (platforms or Flak Tanks depending on army list) and Rapier Laser Destroyers, as well as Field Artillery (if you are using the Siege Regiment variant) in this slot instead of just as heavy support. Hydras are good anti-air since they kept Auto Targeting, Rapiers are stellar as are Field Artillery batteries. Grenadiers and Engineers are bad as they suffer from the points increase DKoK-infantry in general suffers from, but the former have a place in Assault Brigade as they are troops and can take a (slightly overcosted) Chimera variant as DT. Hades Drills are lackluster though and the Grenadiers lack Tempestus Scions special deployment but costs the same.

Fast Attack choices are nothing to write home about. Hellhounds and its variants are not great, Cyclops squads are basically walking one-use Earthshakers, but they too suffer from being slow and quite easily killed or avoided. Death Riders are vastly superior to normal Rough Riders and have a place in the list, but even with better armour, attacks, weapon skill and wounds they are just T3 and will die if you focus some fire on them.

The HQ slots are likewise not that enticing. The Company Command Squad costs almost as much as two IG CCS with almost nothing to show for it, apart from the normal army-wide rules. They cannot load up on four special weapons, their orders are worse and they only have either Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet (siege regiment) or even worse characters as advisors. The Quartermaster is an awful choice since it costs a lot even though it is very flimsy and only grants 6+ FNP to units with 6", the Commissar-General is a more expensive Lord Commissar with exactly the same rules and cheaper upgrades. They also have a named character whom I love to use, but he does not really work with the army since he gives a 12" ld 10 aura to an army that already ignores leadership tests due to shooting.

Lords of War are worse since they cannot take the best Baneblade variants and Macharius tanks are some of the worst choices possible. The Gorgon formation is fluffy but Gorgons are really bad, the Death Rider squadron are better since they have more HS and Elite slots and can take Death Riders are mandatory choices instead of Infantry Squads.

So to summarise: they are a viable army depending on what you are facing. They will probably get brutally murdered in a competitive environment, might be almost cheesy in a casual since they can take an astonishing amount of artillery. But they suffer from being a very slow list with very little mobility apart from Fast Attack choices and those are quite fragile. Their troop and HQ choices are also basically overcosted by 20-30 points per unit. But Vaktathi is right when he says that they are an army designed to be built around artillery and disposable assault infantry, but the latter are neither disposable or good at assaults and the former are the only thing that saves them from being one of the worst army lists.


Edit: Might as well add the changes I would like to see to the list:

All Infantry units except for the Combat Engineers and the Commissar-General are 30 points cheaper. The Engineers become 30 points cheaper and the Commissar-General is 5 points cheaper. 40 points Guardsman squads without the ability to combine them do not make for an OP list.
All tanks become slightly cheaper. Leman Russ gets their Lumbering Behemoth rule back.
Death Riders become slightly cheaper (5-10 points per unit).
Formations or Decurions that actually work with the fluff (i.e, an Assault Brigade recycle troops-formation without the huge downside of having to take the objective)
Access to all Imperial Guard Lords of War tanks. Make them cheaper too, especially the Macharius.
Rebalance the cost of artillery units.

Well DKoK have 2 lists
The Siege Regiment (the one with all the big guns) and the Assault Brigade (The Meatgrinder List)

The Assault Brigade can have an optional special rule, where if a platoon unit gets killed, they go into ongoing reserves, (Hence The MEAT GRINDER as you have Infinite Men) so just take maxxed out platoons with nothing but vox casters (sadly you can only take guardsmen squads in platoons) with some backfield artillery and something like ADL or Wall of Martyrs trench line
If You're playing a mission where the only points are objectives/cards, this is the perfect list

I think I'll use the DKOK grenadier models for a Militarum Tempestus Army. Convert the vehicles into WW1esque, or use DKOK vehicles as "counts as", where I can. Little conversion work too.

Something like this -

HQ -- 350

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 5x Plasma Gun - 175

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 5x Plasma Gun - 175

Troops - 860

Tempestus Scions (DKOK grenadier models of course) x5, 2x Flamer – 80

Tempestus Scion x10, 2x Melta Gun – 250

Taurox (GRENADIER CENTAUR LIGHT ASSAULT CARRIER with a little conversion work), Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Tempestus Scion x10, 2x Melta Gun – 250

Taurox, Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Tempestus Scions x10, 2x Plasma Gun – 260

Taurox, Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Emperor's Spear Formation -- 465 (Maybe convert Valks to be Biplane winged, and open canopy with swivel gunner at nose, like the Dark Angels Darkshroud gunner....)

Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170
Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170
Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170

 russian69hitman wrote:
I think I'll use the DKOK grenadier models for a Militarum Tempestus Army. Convert the vehicles into WW1esque, or use DKOK vehicles as "counts as", where I can. Little conversion work too.

Something like this -

HQ -- 350

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 5x Plasma Gun - 175

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 5x Plasma Gun - 175

Troops - 860

Tempestus Scions (DKOK grenadier models of course) x5, 2x Flamer – 80

Tempestus Scion x10, 2x Melta Gun – 250

Taurox (GRENADIER CENTAUR LIGHT ASSAULT CARRIER with a little conversion work), Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Tempestus Scion x10, 2x Melta Gun – 250

Taurox, Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Tempestus Scions x10, 2x Plasma Gun – 260

Taurox, Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Emperor's Spear Formation -- 465 (Maybe convert Valks to be Biplane winged, and open canopy with swivel gunner at nose, like the Dark Angels Darkshroud gunner....)

Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170
Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170
Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170

*Insert Darth Vader NO!*

But...But The Meatgrinder....You get Infinite Men...

commander dante wrote:

 russian69hitman wrote:
I think I'll use the DKOK grenadier models for a Militarum Tempestus Army. Convert the vehicles into WW1esque, or use DKOK vehicles as "counts as", where I can. Little conversion work too.

Something like this -

HQ -- 350

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 5x Plasma Gun - 175

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 5x Plasma Gun - 175

Troops - 860

Tempestus Scions (DKOK grenadier models of course) x5, 2x Flamer – 80

Tempestus Scion x10, 2x Melta Gun – 250

Taurox (GRENADIER CENTAUR LIGHT ASSAULT CARRIER with a little conversion work), Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Tempestus Scion x10, 2x Melta Gun – 250

Taurox, Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Tempestus Scions x10, 2x Plasma Gun – 260

Taurox, Missile Launcher and TL Auto Cannon (100)

Emperor's Spear Formation -- 465 (Maybe convert Valks to be Biplane winged, and open canopy with swivel gunner at nose, like the Dark Angels Darkshroud gunner....)

Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170
Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170
Vendetta, 3x TL Lascannon – 170

*Insert Darth Vader NO!*

But...But The Meatgrinder....You get Infinite Men...

If I had infinite money, then yeah....

I actually think they're superior to regular AM lists. I haven't faced an AM list I found frightening in a while though.

I'm curious as to why people find that they are superior to AM. Indulge me please.

DKoK can ignore 25% morale tests against shooting, and can spam really durable artillery units.

I don't think this really makes them better than "codex" IG, as they're ultra static and have monstrously expensive infantry and there's a grip of powerful hardcounters that most armies have to this sort of list, but it does avoid some of the pitfalls of the more Tank based IG lists in many respects.

I'm just curious about that. I've come to find that the Death Korps rule does not do much since they die very quickly when put under serious pressure. It's nice for objective-camping or last minute grabbing if your opponent cannot spare the required firepower, but little else. But I do not understand the artillery thing. Imperial Guard has access to the very same units, albeit with different crew, with the difference being that they cannot take Field Artillery and Rapiers in the elite slot. Otherwise, their Field Artillery is slightly cheaper and they have better order synergy.

It just seems to me as if people don't know that Codex: Astra Militarum still has access to almost every "OP" unit that the Death Korps have?

The medium field artillery can be relatively tough to kill with shooting at range, and the heavier artillery is doubly tough with 4 wounds per gun instead of 2 and more crew (that also count as T7). So in a 2k game, you may have 6 S10 AP2 Medusa carriages and 9 medium field guns for a total of 90 T7 wounds. They can put out lots of firepower and are much more resilient against other shooting than the primary IG codex tanks usually are (because they have *way* more wounds and get saves). Coupled with the DKoK rule of effectively being Fearless against shooting, they're very hard to shift. The normal IG codex can take these units, but they can't necessarily take them in the same quantities (e.g. DKoK get up to 4 Heavy Mortars/Thudd Guns per Elites slot) and they can be made to run much easier.

The tradeoff being that it's even *more* statiic.

The Thudd gun for example, its not as good as the Wyvern, but it has the same role and with a Krieg Siege list, you can have both that and Earthshakers with little trouble, whereas the IG list will start to be pretty tight for slots, unless you go unbound.

But what prevents you from taking another Combined Arms Detachment if you want more artillery?


To give an example, two IG CADs, both with a CCS and two veteran squads and 3x3 Field Artillery or 3x3 Heavy Artillery respectively arrives at 1485 points. One CAD Siege Regiment with two basic platoons and the same number of artillery costsas 1650. You get the same number of artillery, with the differences being better orders and worse morale, but you get also only lose one PCS while gaining another CCS for delicious senior officer orders and your basic infantry are superior while costing 165 points less. If leadership is a problem, you can add priests to all squads for actual fearless and still be cheaper whilst remaining in my view somewhat better. You would need to take DK Combat Engineers as troops in order to become a cheaper alternative, but then you have basically zero troops.

The thing is that for a normal CAD with Infantry Platoons, Death Korps pays 160 points more, or 300 (!) if you choose Veterans instead of AM Infantry Platoons. You could go for Death Riders, which I find are generally superior to normal Death Korps infantry, but that requires playing the special formation. Then you would only pay 140 points more than a CCS + 2 Veteran Squads CAD, or the same as a CCS + 2 minimum platoons.

So this is what I find peculiar. The points saved from choosing Astra Militarum is more than enough to get another detachment, fill it AND buy priests, with change to spare. I definitely won't choose to play AM instead of DKoK myself, I'm just curious as to how this view came to be.

You can take Engineers as troops in the Siege det to reduce costs and take more artillery.