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 Ghaz wrote:
Except again, where has GW stated that BS0 = can not shoot in the 7th edition rulebook? Please provide a page number and paragraph to support this.

Right there as already referenced, as provided by the examples given.

An Armour Save of 0 means the model is incapable of making an Armour Save. A WS of 0 means the model cannot strike any blows, same with Attacks.

Out of those, which does BS most closely apply?

A model can have 100 Attacks, but a WS of 0, what is the result?

A model with a WS 10, but has 0 Attacks. What is the result?

What the is the end result difference between these two?

Where does it state that BS 0 models have a different result than WS 0 for generating Attacks?

 Ghaz wrote:
Except again, where has GW stated that BS0 = can not shoot in the 7th edition rulebook? Please provide a page number and paragraph to support this.

Good point, IIRC this was a 6th edition rule. I couldn't find anything that says BS0 = can't fire.

The rulebook actually tells us what happens with both WS0 and Armour Saves worse that a 6+. It does no such thing for BS0.

Again, there is no definition that BS0 means that the model can't shoot instead of automatically failing his Ballistic Skill Test (i.e., his To Hit roll). With GW's track record it could be either one or one no one thought of.

 Ghaz wrote:
The rulebook actually tells us what happens with both WS0 and Armour Saves worse that a 6+. It does no such thing for BS0.

Again, there is no definition that BS0 means that the model can't shoot instead of automatically failing his Ballistic Skill Test (i.e., his To Hit roll). With GW's track record it could be either one or one no one thought of.

The rulebook gives two examples...

BS0 = No Ability = Can not shoot.

Anyone who thinks that BS 0 should still be able to use Shriek should definitely let 40K FB know. I, personally, think they *should* be able to, but as of right now they cannot.

It's obvious a model with BS0 can't perform a shooting attack.

The closest thing we have for what happens with BS0 is the rules under snap shots, which states:

BRB, The Shooting Phase, Roll to Hit, Snap Shots, first paragraph, last sentence wrote:If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

There's two potential ways to read this. Either 1) the paragraph states what happens when a model has both BS0 AND is Snap Shooting (it makes no shots), or 2) the paragraph states what happens during snap shots, UNLESS its BS is already lower than 1 (aka BS0) and just re-explains what happens in that case.

To me, it makes more sense that it's explaining what happens when a model with BS naturally lower than 1 tries to make a Snap Shot, which means that a model that normally cannot shoot doesn't go "up" to BS1, but rather stays at the BS0 and cannot shoot as normal.

HIWPI psychic shriek should not be, and never should have been classed as a witchfire. The only reason i can think of for making it a witchfire is the person that wrote it was under the impression that all the powers had to be one of the types listed in the book.

There is no profile, roll to hit, no normal roll to wound. It's not, in any way other than name, a shooting attack

IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

You don't Roll To Hit with Templates or Blast, either, but because they are Shooting Attacks like the Witchfire Psychic Shriek, you still cannot shoot with them.

In addition, 0 stat characteristics present a specific case of inability to use whatever they are tied to. This is referenced even later on in the Snap Shot section, as someone pointed out.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

You don't Roll To Hit with Templates or Blast, either, but because they are Shooting Attacks like the Witchfire Psychic Shriek, you still cannot shoot with them.

In addition, 0 stat characteristics present a specific case of inability to use whatever they are tied to. This is referenced even later on in the Snap Shot section, as someone pointed out.

Yeah, the RAW is pretty clear on that. BS0 means no shooting attacks that don't roll To Hit, witchfires are a shooting attack, Psychic Scream is a witchfire and doesn't roll ToHit.
HIWPI though is "you're allowed to use it", even though it - obviously - contradicts the RAW - but I'm convinced that that's the intention of the rule in THIS instance, and if the FAQs made one thing clear is that the spirit of the rule is above the written rule in GWs mind. See scatter & jink, for example - it was extremely unintuitive NOT to allow jink from any point of view except for the pure rules as written.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
IMO BS0 models described as being unable to shoot is maybe not a blanket rule, but comes from the fact that in the vast majority of cases you'd need to roll a 7 on a D6 which is not possible.

In the case of Psychic Shriek though, you don't roll to hit and so it doesn't really matter what your BS is. As has always been the case, generating wounds from Psychic Shriek is not dependent on a successful To Hit roll.

You don't Roll To Hit with Templates or Blast, either, but because they are Shooting Attacks like the Witchfire Psychic Shriek, you still cannot shoot with them.

In addition, 0 stat characteristics present a specific case of inability to use whatever they are tied to. This is referenced even later on in the Snap Shot section, as someone pointed out.

Templates and blasts aren't like Psychic Shriek because you still use BS re scatter. Where does it say that BS0 absolutely excludes making a shooting attack?

Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Templates dont scatter.

A quote was already given, which is a reminder (parens) that a model with BS0 may not make any attack.

Goobi2 wrote:
Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Until recently, there has not been a BS0 Psyker with access to a Nova or auto-hit power (that I know of). It is only the recent FAQ saying that Shriek auto-hits that has opened this discussion as a Genestealer Patriarch has access to Telepathy. If there is a BS0 Psyker with a Nova, they would follow the same rules as a BS0 Psyker with Shriek

My interpretation is that RAW, he cannot use Shriek, but that RAI he should be able to.

--

 Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Its under 'Zero-Level Characteristics' on page 9 and makes no specific mention of Ballistic Skill at all.

Nor excludes it, either.

Here is the pertinent sentence:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’).

The rest of the section is regarding specific situations, such as WS being both an offensive and defensive state, certain stats mean automatic death, and Armour Saves with a zero stat providing no benefit at all.

Then it is clear: Does Psychic Shriek / Scream require a ballistic skill roll? Yes or no?

 Galef wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Until recently, there has not been a BS0 Psyker with access to a Nova or auto-hit power (that I know of). It is only the recent FAQ saying that Shriek auto-hits that has opened this discussion as a Genestealer Patriarch has access to Telepathy. If there is a BS0 Psyker with a Nova, they would follow the same rules as a BS0 Psyker with Shriek

My interpretation is that RAW, he cannot use Shriek, but that RAI he should be able to.

--

Ah, I was still hung up on snap shots (such as against flyers). If a Nova can hit flyers without rolling to hit, why can't Psy Shriek?

Goobi2 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:
Sorry, a little loopy at the moment...

But why would Novas hit if Psy Shriek couldn't?

Until recently, there has not been a BS0 Psyker with access to a Nova or auto-hit power (that I know of). It is only the recent FAQ saying that Shriek auto-hits that has opened this discussion as a Genestealer Patriarch has access to Telepathy. If there is a BS0 Psyker with a Nova, they would follow the same rules as a BS0 Psyker with Shriek

My interpretation is that RAW, he cannot use Shriek, but that RAI he should be able to.

--

Ah, I was still hung up on snap shots (such as against flyers). If a Nova can hit flyers without rolling to hit, why can't Psy Shriek?

The FAQ stated these two rules changes in the beginning.

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

Q: Does a template weapon aimed at a unit at ground level but also touching a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature hit it? Does a blast marker that drifts onto a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature hit it?
A: No, in both cases. Template and Blast weapons and other attacks that don’t roll To Hit cannot hit Flying Monstrous Creatures that are Swooping.

Tonberry7 wrote:Templates and blasts aren't like Psychic Shriek because you still use BS re scatter. Where does it say that BS0 absolutely excludes making a shooting attack?

I don't remember Templates Scattering, and not all Blasts are affected by BS. But still, BS 0 means no ability to Shoot. This is reinforced by the Snap Shot rule that someone previously quoted.

Snap Shots
Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire ‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

(in which case it may not shoot)

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

You're right! it's not "a 'ballistic' "! It's a witchfire. Witchfires are shooting attacks. Shooting attacks without profiles may not be snap shot. BS0 models cannot shoot, therefore they cannot use witchfires. Which is sad, because it would hit automatically if he could fire it...but he can't.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

Toy Soldiers (from English "Toy" and "Soldier") are inanimate objects that are in some instances placed on top of a table to play something called a "tabletop" (from English "table" and "top"). Inanimate objects can't manifest Psychic Powers, because the Warp isn't real.

Your Patriarch can't cast Psychic Scream since he's a Toy Soldier.

nekooni wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

Toy Soldiers (from English "Toy" and "Soldier") are inanimate objects that are in some instances placed on top of a table to play something called a "tabletop" (from English "table" and "top"). Inanimate objects can't manifest Psychic Powers, because the Warp isn't real.

Your Patriarch can't cast Psychic Scream since he's a Toy Soldier.

the warp is real......i can hear it

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ballistics (from Greek βάλλειν ballein, "to throw") is the science of mechanics that deals with the launching, flight, behavior, and effects of projectiles, especially bullets, gravity bombs, rockets, or the like; the science or art of designing and accelerating projectiles so as to achieve a desired performance.

The shriek is not a 'ballistic', has no weapon profile, and hits automatically. Also, there is no actual definition in the BRB that says no ability = cannot make a shooting attack. At most, I would say that BS0 means you would automatically fail the to-hit roll (which doesn't need to be made for shriek)

I would think it is a large stretch to say that the BRB tells us that the Patriarch cannot cast shriek.

This definition you have provided is 100% useless to this discussion. Lasguns and Lascannons use a Beam. A Shooting Attack is not always a Ballistics Attack. They are under the same standards for shooting as the autocannon, missile launcher, and Earthshaker. The game does not differentiate in these cases.

The rules state that a zero-level characteristic indicates that the model has no ability in that area. What is BS used for?

Ballistic Skill (BS)
This shows how accurate a warrior is with ranged weapons of all kinds, from pistols firing blazing bolts of plasma to earth-shaking battle cannons. The higher this characteristic is, the easier a creature finds it to hit targets with shooting attacks.

This combined with the reminder in Snap Shots tells us that a model with BS 0 has no ability with ranged Weapons of any kind, from pistols firing bolts of plasma to earth-shaking battle cannons. Furthermore:

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically. Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in the same way as with other shooting weapons. Saves can be taken against Wounds from witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack, and hits are allocated to the closest target models to the Psyker.

The only exceptions noted for this is that there are no limits to how many Witchfire Attacks can be made, and how the different Attacks are represented. Psychic Shriek does not apply to any of these different types, though.

<delete>

@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

If you have not ability, you can not perform anything related to that ability.

You may not use any bolters. you may not cast any witchfires, none. nothing at all. you have no ability...

This is also backed up by the Snap Shot rules.

BS0 means you may not use any shooting attacks.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire, which is a shooting attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you have not ability, you can not perform anything related to that ability.

You may not use any bolters. you may not cast any witchfires, none. nothing at all. you have no ability...

This is also backed up by the Snap Shot rules.

BS0 means you may not use any shooting attacks.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire, which is a shooting attack.

Under Zero-level Characteristics it defines what 'no ability' means in the second paragraph for Weapon Skill, Attacks, Armour Save, Strength, Toughness or Wounds. But provides no definition for Ballistic Skill - which means anyone creating one is trying to define their intent but it is not RAW.

You're second point about not shooting with ballistic skill 0 is in the context of snap shots only.

from the BRB under snap shots:

The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with
Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when units make Overwatch shots. If a model is
forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted
as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not
shoot).

You can see in the context of where it is written it only applies to snap shots and is not a blanket RAW rule to shooting with Ballistic skill 0 in other cases.

There is only a RAI explanation for not shooting shriek with BS0 - not a RAW one. And there are many RAI arguments for allowing to shoot it as well.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
@Charistoph

pistols, plasma, cannons - all of those things require skill to aim and hit a target - i.e. ballistic skill - you added lascannons and lasguns and other beams - still require skill to aim and understandably require ballistic skill to hit.

The shriek has been FAQed to auto-hit, no need to roll to hit.

The BRB absolutely does not define 'no ability' of ballistic skill (value 0) to disallow all shooting attacks - its just that if you look on the ballistic skill table, 0 is not listed so you could not hit - IF you had to roll to hit - which shriek does not.

The fluff supports it and the rules support it.

That's "true" for all of the Auto-Hit abilities