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I'm very close to finalizing my initial lists for rebooting my old Marines as White Scars. Thanks again to everyone who helped by responding to my initial query a few months ago. Now I've built up (or acquired the bits to build) almost 2000 points, and I'm trying to lock in the last few variables. I play both casual and competitive games against everything except IG and Orks.

I'm looking at the difference between a full Gladius and the White Scars Scarblade Strike Force with accompanying CAD for an all-comers list at 2k. Both have the same basic models on the field to start:
two HQs
two Grav Biker Commands w/ Apothecaries (my limited experience shows these are pretty potent)
six transports (all Scouting, courtesy of Khan)
a variety of melta, plasma, and grav among the Tactical Squads (I got a Sternguard sprue for the bits)
LS Typhoons filling the Fast choices (although I do have a few extra Bikes)
Devs running mostly naked (due to limited models-- I have mainly missile launchers, which are of limited use these days)

The differences are in which special rules I have, what I pay for transports, who has ObSec, and how I spend the points left over. I'm especially interested to see if people think I'd be better off to run one of the Biker Commands loaded out for assault instead, and if so, with what (hammers, shields, fists, etc.).

EDIT: These lists were my starting point; a new list several posts down reflects revisions from the excellent feedback I've gotten so far.

Option 1: Gladius, currently 1905



Option 2: Scarblade Strike Force + CAD, currently 1900



Ultimately I intend to play both lists to see what they're capable of, but I want to start with the stronger of the two. The Gladius puts more models on the table thanks to free transports and has a ridiculous amount of ObSec. I could use the last 200 points to equip the Devs (how? I'll need to order bits for this), swap a Typhoon for another Bike squad, add HKs to vehicles, add meltabombs to Sergeants, or beef up some squads. I also own some Assault squads, and two old Dreds.

The Scarblade Strike Force gives re-rolls to hit when driving the enemy off an objective, which seems a fair trade for ObSec; more interestingly, they get to move after shooting, including re-embarking the same turn they disembark and shoot, which sounds delightfully annoying. Combined with Scout, those three Razorbacks will pack a good punch. The Devs in that formation have to be mounted, which is why there's one less transport in the CAD. The CAD gives another two mounted units ObSec plus the extra Doctrine, which should help them claim objectives even though half the force has lost ObSec. I could use the last 100 points for some more ObSec Bikes, some Dev gear, HKs, meltabombs, etc.

In a bigger move, I could ditch the second Grav Biker Command and run the Scarblade as listed, a smaller CAD, and a Librarius Conclave, maybe running them on bikes with small ablative Bike squads, but I haven't priced that out yet.

So which looks more potent as an all-comers list, and what can I do to tool them up even more? Have I screwed up basic math and selection requirements? Thanks as always!

Was there an update that allows the Gladius strike force to take the storm bringer squadron? In codex SM, it isn't an aux choice for it. And I didn't see it in angel snog death either unless I missed it.

Good point... I went back and re-read the Gladius entry: "Only the datasheets listed here..." I had been thinking that an Auxiliary Formation was just that, regardless of where it came from. So that will have to be a Suppression Force instead... I'll make the edits above. This may increase my interest in the Scarblade combo. That Stormbringer Squadron is pretty sweet. Thanks for troubleshooting!

MacPhail wrote:
Good point... I went back and re-read the Gladius entry: "Only the datasheets listed here..." I had been thinking that an Auxiliary Formation was just that, regardless of where it came from. So that will have to be a Suppression Force instead... I'll make the edits above. This may increase my interest in the Scarblade combo. That Stormbringer Squadron is pretty sweet. Thanks for troubleshooting!

With both of these lists you are going to have some serious trouble actually killing anything, and taking a naked dev squad is a crying goddam shame. So I have some suggestions based on battle company lists that did well at adepticon in the championship.

1. Don't go double command squad, it will only disappoint you. Put Khan in one and drop the other for a drop podding Culexus assasin(until the FAQ goes live you can get one in a pod for 255 pts total and it is worth it's weight in gold.). Chaplain goes with 1 of the dev squads. Also take a transport, giving the command squad bikes means it can't ride in the transport, it can still buy one and since it's free why not?

2. For whitescars at least 5 of your transports should be Rhinos. 3 tac squads with a grav cannon each+ 2 devs with double grav cannons all scouting 12 and having full shots will decimate anything but large demon blobs and true death stars.

3. For the other 3 tac squads I prefer drop pods, or more rhinos, but I could see LasPlas razorbacks (heavy bolters may as well shoot spitballs for how useful they are) working out okay. If you go the razorback route give them plasma, plasma sucks but it's better than grav guns and meltas for units that won't usually get within 9 inches of things. Only take Combi-weapons if you're using pods and you bring melta combi-melta.

4. Suppression force is fine but to save money and points the 10th company is 100pts cheaper and is actually extremely useful.

5. DEV SQUAD ARE THE MOST VALUABLE UNITS IN A BATTLE COMPANY, DO NOT RUN THEM NAKED WHEN GRAV CANNONS EXIST!

6. Dozer blades are a great upgrade; Have extra points? Get Dozer Blades!

Landspeeder typhoon is fine, drop it for an MM attack bike if you wanna save 40pts

ERJAK, thanks for the guidance. Yep, building out the Devs is clearly where most of those points need to go. I never intended to leave them naked, but I just don't have the models to do anything yet, as this a reboot of a mothballed army from 3 editions ago. It sounds like grav is the only way to go in the modern meta, and I do want to stay competitive. Can one get grav cannons anywhere but the Dev box? I looked at a bits retailer online and it was $15+ per pair for the bits from that box.

I see the merit of shooting from the top hatch of the Rhinos, but don't transported models count as moving? Or is it that Scout gets them into range before Turn 1 and then they just park and open up until they lose their transport?

On combis... I've got enough special/combi pairs for 2 Tac squads of each weapon type thanks to the Sternguard sprue. I'm hoping that the Stormlance bonuses (rerolling hits against anyone claiming an objective and diving back into their transports after shooting) will increase their impact and limit Gets Hot, and Scout will help them get closer than normal, although not as close as drop pods (of which I currently own zero). Even with Scout and a 2-inch disembark, they won't have great range for an alpha strike (extra melta dice, rapid fire range, etc.). If I can spam enough transports and engage all those re-rolls, do I dare hope for a reasonable Turn 2 shooting phase?

I dunno, maybe I just need to take your advice and start hustling grav cannons. Seriously, with 2 per $46, how does somebody build an army like the one you're describing?

Thanks for the detailed response!

You could go for 3rd party bits http://bitsofwar.com/home/445-legionary-gravity-cannons.html
These look pretty good

Those look excellent, and the price is right... I may have to get some. I've had some resin casts, many of them imported (sounds classy, right?) that have required LOTS of work, but the price difference is such that I'll have to try it, especially in the numbers we're talking about. Thanks for the tip!

I've been through this comparison myself pretty extensively especially after seeing the scarblade and how fun it is in action.

The critical comparison I've come to is the difference between offensive options.

Grav-Cannons are king. It's fun and thematic to use the mobile firebase to jump out of a razorback but when you really boil it down a rhino with 5 tac with a grav cannon or two if you're devastators is cheaper and probably more offensively sound.

Rerolls on hit and run are pretty good and the reroll hits on objectives are very good too but the conclusion that I've made is that you want objective secured and more grav options.

I'm currently running a CAD + librarius who join up with Khan and a command squad and roll for veil of time. This plus dev squads and obsec bikes make up my 1850 list.

Skyhammer is another option for less obsec and more utility+grav cannons. (run it as ultramarines)

I think gladius is just as good as the CAD if not better. I have no interest in owning that many vehicles though.

Scarblade with razorbacks utilizing mobile firebase is one of the most fun lists I've ever played and I strongly suggest running it casually at least once.

TL;DR the meat of a CAD outweighs the marginal utility of the scarblade as most of the rules don't matter that much.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear from someone who has used both forces! Scarblade does seem like a lot of fun, both in terms of some fast, in-your-face tactics and providing your opponent with a confounding problem of squirrely Marines diving back into their metal boxes. I'm glad to hear also that both CAD and Gladius have some substance... I am adding Marines to offset my Battle Sisters specifically because I wanted more viable army builds and tactical options, so it sounds like I made a good choice with White Scars.

The point about grav cannons has been well made and thoroughly accepted: I have six on the way from the source BDal offered. I'll let you know how they look when they arrive. I'll take the advice too about using both Tac and Dev squads with Rhinos as mobile firing platforms to take advantage of Scouting into close range. I may not have enough Rhino hulls to really take advantage of the Gladius, but I have six and I'm about to upgrade to nine total.

Thanks for the advice everyone... I'll rework the points today to accommodate the grav bits that are on the way and I'll post when I have two new builds for comparison. Y'all rock!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, here's my latest notion based on the great feedback (namely that Scarblade is fun, ObSec is important, and Grav Cannons are essential, among other points). I think I'll let the Gladius go for now... I'll need a few extra transports to really make it effective.

For this iteration, I went with Scarblade (Stormlance + Conclave + Auxiliary) + CAD, as follows.

Stormlance Battle Company (990)
Khan on Moondrakken 150
Grav Biker Command w/ Apothecary 200
Tac w/ melta + combi-melta in Rhino 125
Tac w/ melta + combi-melta in Rhino 125
Tac w/ plasma + combi-plasma in Rhino 130
Landspeeder with Assault Cannon 65
Dev w/ 2x grav cannon in Rhino 175

Librarius Conclave (350)
ML2 on Bike w/ Hunter's Eye 130
ML2 on Bike 110
ML2 on Bike 110

Stormbringer Squadron (165)
Scouts w/ Landspeeder Storm 95
Landspeeder Typhoon 70

CAD (471)
Chaplain on Bike 110
Bike Squad w/ 2x grav gun 93
Bike Squad w/ 2x grav gun 93
Dev w/ 2x grav cannon in Rhino 175

So, now I'll have two Rhinos with double grav cannon Dev squads, as recommended-- both have Scout, one has ObSec, and the other re-rolls to hit against objective holders. Rather than load the Tac squad Rhinos with grav cannons as well, I'm thinking I'll run special/combi-special to take advantage of the re-rolls and the disembark/shoot/re-embark shenanigans, although I'm still up in the air about melta (higher S for IDing T4) vs. plasma (higher RoF to benefit from re-rolls). In the same spirit, the Stormlance speeder took an assault cannon for a higher RoF for the re-rolls and Rending, although I could do Typhoons there as well.

I'm thinking the Conclave joins the Grav Biker Command, although they could also split up and roll with the smaller CAD bikers for mutual wound tanking. Would the CAD bikers lose ObSec if they are joined by non-CAD ICs? The Chappie could share his perks with a variety of units as well. For ObSec, I'd have 2 Bike squads, one Rhino of Devs, and the Stormbringer scouts... seems like less than ideal, but the Stormlance gives bonuses geared toward washing enemy units off objectives, maybe they'll balance out. I could switch the Command squad from one formation to the other for a 5th ObSec unit.

What to do with the last 40-ish points? Melta bombs for bike sergeants, vehicle upgrades, weapon swaps on the Tac squads, more wargear for the Librarians... lots of options. Also, I'm very interested in the tactical outlook, armies I'll struggle against, missions that will challenge me, etc. Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Just when I felt the Scarblade was looking pretty shiny, I took another shot at the Gladius after all... still on the fence I guess.

Gladius Strike Force, 1996 points

I swapped the second grav biker command for a maxed out bike squad. The plan would be to combat squad them, send the grav guns and multi melta up a flank looking for targets while Khan and the powerfist look for a fight... losing FNP is a bummer, but hopefully the extra T5 ablative wounds and H&R allow them to survive. The Chaplain still rides with the grav command to give Ignores Cover. I swapped the Suppression Force for the 10th Co... no ObSec from the scouts, but hopefully the enhanced saves make them hard to shift and give some board control options to exploit with all the mobile ObSec the rest of the list has. I downgraded a couple of Tac squads to flamers and Rhinos to camp home objectives or double up on a midfield one, but added the grav cannon Rhinos that were missing. Lots of grav, lots of ObSec, lots of mobility, a reasonably hard-hitting assault unit, and some annoying cover saves... I think Gladius is back in the mix against the Scarblade.

Thoughts and suggestions most welcome, especially tactical critiques beyond the build itself, opponents/missions I'll struggle with, etc. Thanks!

 MacPhail wrote:
Just when I felt the Scarblade was looking pretty shiny, I took another shot at the Gladius after all... still on the fence I guess.

Gladius Strike Force, 1996 points

Spoiler:

Battle Demi-Company 1 (860)
Khan on Moondrakken 150
Tac w/ melta + combi-melta in free Razorback + upgrade 110
Tac w/ plasma + combi-plasma in free Razorback + upgrade 115
Tac w/ flamer in free Rhino 75
Bike squad w/ 5 extra bikes, 2x grav guns, veteran upgrade, power fist, attack bike w/ multi-melta
Dev squad w/ 2x grav cannons in free Rhino 170

Battle Demi-Company 2 (853)
Chaplain on Bike with Hunter's Eye 130
Command w/ bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary 200
Tac w/ melta + combi-melta in free Razorback + upgrade 110
Tac w/ plasma + combi-plasma in free Razorback + upgrade 115
Tac w/ flamer in free Rhino 75
Landspeeder Typhoon 70
Dev squad w/ 2x grav cannons in free Rhino 170

Auxiliary Requirement: 10th Co. (283)
Scout Bike squad w/ cluster mines, 3x grenade launchers 89
Scout squad, 4x sniper rifles, camo 69
Scout squad, combi-melta, melta bombs, LSStorm, assault cannon 125

I swapped the second grav biker command for a maxed out bike squad. The plan would be to combat squad them, send the grav guns and multi melta up a flank looking for targets while Khan and the powerfist look for a fight... losing FNP is a bummer, but hopefully the extra T5 ablative wounds and H&R allow them to survive. The Chaplain still rides with the grav command to give Ignores Cover. I swapped the Suppression Force for the 10th Co... no ObSec from the scouts, but hopefully the enhanced saves make them hard to shift and give some board control options to exploit with all the mobile ObSec the rest of the list has. I downgraded a couple of Tac squads to flamers and Rhinos to camp home objectives or double up on a midfield one, but added the grav cannon Rhinos that were missing. Lots of grav, lots of ObSec, lots of mobility, a reasonably hard-hitting assault unit, and some annoying cover saves... I think Gladius is back in the mix against the Scarblade.

Thoughts and suggestions most welcome, especially tactical critiques beyond the build itself, opponents/missions I'll struggle with, etc. Thanks!

You still get a free transport from the command squad.