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Ah!

It was Titan Forge, not Prodos, that made a mess with Demigods Rising. I was getting them both mixed up, which is funny seeing as how I backed that one too.

Duh.

Thanks for the list!

The Blaines were 100% Mantics problem, Prodos got them half way out of the hole Mantic made for themselves and should be credited as such.

And yeah I know a couple of companies who's used Probos for manufacturing that's not on that list also.

So, Prodos as a contractor not only has delivered, but acted as a rescue for a few companies been stuck with unreliable contractors?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So, Prodos as a contractor not only has delivered, but acted as a rescue for a few companies been stuck with unreliable contractors?

Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves. As a potential client I believe its better not to dwell to much into this, I mean some are on a mission to prove Prodos is a great company victim of impossible circumstances while others would probably burn this company down if given the chance. If companies are huge I can understand the two faced behavior, since to many corporate suits are involved in making decisions... but for such small company I cannot understand that, since all comes from the same few people. So yeah better not think to much about it because If I do I would probably give up on Prodos.

Besides the vast majority of people on this forum will deal with Prodos not on a manufacturer Level but rather as a direct client... on that front they seem to be falling a bit short and may I say, actually not being honest about their decisions.
I do not do KS because of many reasons so obviously I'm not burned, but I do feel sympathetic with those who are. Its up to you really if you really want to push Prodos as a great company with immaculate reputation in one branch of their overall biz but thats not going to end up well and will rub many people in the wrong way.

Like I said I hope Prodos gets over this and delivers things as promised ASAP until then good for them that they are excellent with the manufacturers, its a good starting point. Hope it turns out for the best for everyone.

Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.

That's a very good question but probably better left to a separate thread (other than this one or the general AVP KS thread). Given that the ks "exclusive" version is anything but, unicast might allow them to reach their original goal of a newbie friendly retail board game version. If you start one, post a link here.

 NAVARRO wrote:


Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves.

Possibly because the KS fulfilment issues are not related to casting. It seems like Prodos has issues with shipping and maintaining an up to date list of what should go where, more than getting the product done.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves.

It actually makes perfect sense. It also goes back to the speculation that there is financial trouble when you think about it.

You are way over budget for various reasons because all the money has been poured into AvP. They haven't expanded any of their lines, focused on anything new because it was focused on AvP. Without putting money and development into new products, games and expansions they put a choke on renvenue coming in. The decision was made to put an amount aside to ship a big chunk of items, then completely segrate themselves from AvP. That means only AvP income essentially gets used for AvP stuff, while other money is focused on other things like new miniatures for Mutant Chronciles, developing new games, etc. There also explains decisions by various individuals to leave Prodos as there could have been an "exit deal" since they went on to produce their own games instead of a pension/termination because of downsizing. They put the focus on the casting, printing and sculpting business (which is technically a seperate entity, forgot the name). This is hypothetical but is a valid given the history of business in similar situations based on the actions. As I said before I'm not sure I would make the same choice but I do understand it from a business aspect.

I saw on another forum last night that there are only a handfull of things outstanding on AVP and from what the less emotional people on the other message board were saying is that Prodos is having a nightmare of a time getting fox to sign off on things. One of the posters said they were in the group waiting for those last things and had just received notification that their items were being sent.
I think cross-posting isn't allowed but it's on Reapers' boards.

As to someone claiming anyone here is trying to say Prodos is spotless, or a victim of circumstance on AVP.. I don't actually recall anyone saying that in this thread. I frankly don't care about Prodos one way or another but apparently if you're not screaming for their heads then that means you love them. To me that seems like an unrealistically black and white polarized viewpoint. It's possible for someone to be bad at one thing and good at another without themselves being completely bad or good.

The facts are pretty simple. Prodos screwed up AVP royally and Prodos has been involved with something like a dozen plus other companies in one way or another without notable problems (that have been shared).

When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers.

I have worked for a company before that took on a project and they lowballed it on time and budget very very hard. It ran out of money really fast and we had to stop work on it and work other projects until we scraped enough funds to work on the other project. That was computer based training and I was just doing 3d, Flash, animation, and programming but it was a small company so the management talked about stuff pretty openly. When it gets to the point where you have to decide to either go delinquent on a deliverable or not eat or go under as a business, then you have to make decisions that suck. Prodos made a decision that sucks. It's that simple.

 NAVARRO wrote:
on that front they seem to be falling a bit short and may I say, actually not being honest about their decisions.

Only for their Kickstarters, as a standard manufacturer/retailer they are perfectly fine.

I have bought quite a lot of Warzone stuff in the last 2 years and while they had some issues with atrocious cast quality when they just started out but that seems to be behind them now. They also have good customer service, I had a particularly badly cast mini replaced (one of the original Bauhaus Vulkans) within about 4-5 working days.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Weird they would "rescue" other business in "trouble" but decided not to help themselves.

It actually makes perfect sense. It also goes back to the speculation that there is financial trouble when you think about it.

You are way over budget for various reasons because all the money has been poured into AvP. They haven't expanded any of their lines, focused on anything new because it was focused on AvP. Without putting money and development into new products, games and expansions they put a choke on renvenue coming in. The decision was made to put an amount aside to ship a big chunk of items, then completely segrate themselves from AvP. That means only AvP income essentially gets used for AvP stuff, while other money is focused on other things like new miniatures for Mutant Chronciles, developing new games, etc. There also explains decisions by various individuals to leave Prodos as there could have been an "exit deal" since they went on to produce their own games instead of a pension/termination because of downsizing. They put the focus on the casting, printing and sculpting business (which is technically a seperate entity, forgot the name). This is hypothetical but is a valid given the history of business in similar situations based on the actions. As I said before I'm not sure I would make the same choice but I do understand it from a business aspect.

Its a believable scenario and maybe closer than I imagined it to be. Good valid argument. When I say weird is because today we see them ship AVP to stores and distributors and sell them a bit everywhere, surely they should have reserved a bit of that money to honor older commitments first. Like you say given the choice to different people and business they will choose differently hence thats how a rep is created.

@MLaw you still seem very interested in not listening, because if this is directed to me:

"When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers. "


Its clearly reading what you want to read. Guess what just because someone does not share your views does not make them angry or with agendas. Not going to even mention the rest of your post. Not worth the time going on a eternal loop.

I said my piece, this unicast presented as it is does not satisfy any of the things I look forward on a miniature.
Prodos rep is a mixed feeling and I would prefer that it was not something that needed to be debated. Hope that in a few months all is cleared for the best.

 MLaw wrote:
I saw on another forum last night that there are only a handfull of things outstanding on AVP and from what the less emotional people on the other message board were saying is that Prodos is having a nightmare of a time getting fox to sign off on things. One of the posters said they were in the group waiting for those last things and had just received notification that their items were being sent.

There are folks who have gotten NOTHING up to and including missing the wave 1 items that have been on store shelves for 6+ months and therefore WAAAAAAY past any Fox approval hurdle. Over in the KS thread, folks have taken to ordering additional AVP items to give Prodos a few extra bucks and having them ship their long delinquent rewards that they've been looking at on store shelves since 2015 along with it. But, hey, if a guy on the Reaper boards says something then it must apply to thousands of other backers, right?

When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers.

They probably do have an agenda... getting their long overdue rewards that keep getting pushed back further and further. I'm not angry at Prodos as a would be backer (who unbacked in the last 5 minutes) but I'll certainly not praise them until they stop continuing to screw over a group of folks that I was very close to joining. I'd never buy any prodos product that wasn't in front of me in the store physically so I could both receive and evaluate it immediately.

I have worked for a company before that took on a project and they lowballed it on time and budget very very hard. It ran out of money really fast and we had to stop work on it and work other projects until we scraped enough funds to work on the other project. That was computer based training and I was just doing 3d, Flash, animation, and programming but it was a small company so the management talked about stuff pretty openly. When it gets to the point where you have to decide to either go delinquent on a deliverable or not eat or go under as a business, then you have to make decisions that suck. Prodos made a decision that sucks. It's that simple.

It really is that simple... until folks like yourself try to pressure the victims in this case to just suck it up and shut up instead of applying some positive consumer pressure to the perpetrators (Prodos obviously in this case) to make it right for their own company's sake. That makes it worse. You've expended some effort into the former... how much time have you spent doing the latter? Btw, complaining about complaining is by definition still complaining.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.

No for several factors.

The most important one and it is from Warzone, is because they change design direction if a few vocal backers bark loud enouph, the Bauhaus redesign from something factional and designed at present to the old tired design of two and a half decades ago because a few but vocal backers wanted the old design.

Second is because it is evident they cannot handle a licence from a big licence holder, it is quite probable that knowing what they know now they could handle it better, but meh needs to be proven first.

Thirdly is because AVP leaves me cold as are most or all licences, I would rather see something new and original.

I can understand about backers not having items send, Mantic still own me a deluxe dreadball pit and a few miscast/ never send team members, CMON needed a year to send me the missing sleeves from Xenosyft and still has not send me that cell door from Zombiside, but I do not go raving on every thread their name is mentioned.

I guess it would depend on if backing AVP2 would be the next new condition on me getting my entire AVP one rewards shipped, of which I have recieved nothing.

As to the claims of financial problems, Jarek confirmed that there was money kept aside for shipping and they were not out of money. Was this another lie? You decide.

As with KDM maybe, the rates changed from then to now and money sufficient then may not be enouph now? who knows?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
As with KDM maybe, the rates changed from then to now and money sufficient then may not be enouph now? who knows?

This was a few months ago.
I'm completely understanding of rates increasing, but not being told there's a problem?
Looking at AvP, there's a chance based on everything that's happened so far, that if I ever do recieve my stuff, it will be the retail version, with multicoloured door stands (unless they've run out of those as well), with extra miniatures shipped loose in garbage bags taped to the side of a box, and maybe the blue resin bendy versions.

The problems with Prodos go well beyond not delivering, that is why it's an issue when they claim great new technology.

For what it is worth, I've read of folks getting the KS version with the funky colored door stands, so that wondrous phenomena isn't limited to the retail version.

But Prodos is a great company! Obviously Fox is to blame for the inability to source door stands in the correct quantity and color.

 CptJake wrote:
For what it is worth, I've read of folks getting the KS version with the funky colored door stands, so that wondrous phenomena isn't limited to the retail version.

But Prodos is a great company! Obviously Fox is to blame for the inability to source door stands in the correct quantity and color.

Absolutely!
Of course it's nothing to do with them sending out so many retail copies, all the while publically denying they are filling retail orders first, that led to them running out of components to fill the Kickstarter copies, because as we all know, the problem is just shipping. Caused by Fox. Not Prodos.

So what is the connection with their reliability as contracted manufacturers? or their ability to use new casting technology?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So what is the connection with their reliability as contracted manufacturers?

When faced with adversity (even largely of their own making), Prodos has an ongoing proven track record of having no qualms in disappointing parties who have already paid in favor of those who will pay. Hopefully they won't continue that trend over in the business to business portion of their work.

"Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
"Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?

Why is it a seperate issue? Oh, it's a Kickstarter so it doesn't count?
Issues with Fox on some aspects I understand. The way they have acted on everything they as Prodos are responsible for is somehow ok, because it's just backers of their Kickstarter?

we don't even know how much of the Fox problems were actually Fox's fault, all we have are prodos word for it and let's look at how honest they've been.

Really I don't think there would be soooooooo much crud being tossed if you weren't such a die hard defender. If you would have just said "okay they have issues" and let it go then I know I wouldn't be here constantly shooting down your defenses.

 warboss wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
I saw on another forum last night that there are only a handfull of things outstanding on AVP and from what the less emotional people on the other message board were saying is that Prodos is having a nightmare of a time getting fox to sign off on things. One of the posters said they were in the group waiting for those last things and had just received notification that their items were being sent.

There are folks who have gotten NOTHING up to and including missing the wave 1 items that have been on store shelves for 6+ months and therefore WAAAAAAY past any Fox approval hurdle. Over in the KS thread, folks have taken to ordering additional AVP items to give Prodos a few extra bucks and having them ship their long delinquent rewards that they've been looking at on store shelves since 2015 along with it. But, hey, if a guy on the Reaper boards says something then it must apply to thousands of other backers, right?

When someone continues posting the same thing every page and twisting anything that is said, it's clear they've got an agenda. This is strange to me too when some of the people who are so angry towards them aren't even AVP backers.

They probably do have an agenda... getting their long overdue rewards that keep getting pushed back further and further. I'm not angry at Prodos as a would be backer (who unbacked in the last 5 minutes) but I'll certainly not praise them until they stop continuing to screw over a group of folks that I was very close to joining. I'd never buy any prodos product that wasn't in front of me in the store physically so I could both receive and evaluate it immediately.

I have worked for a company before that took on a project and they lowballed it on time and budget very very hard. It ran out of money really fast and we had to stop work on it and work other projects until we scraped enough funds to work on the other project. That was computer based training and I was just doing 3d, Flash, animation, and programming but it was a small company so the management talked about stuff pretty openly. When it gets to the point where you have to decide to either go delinquent on a deliverable or not eat or go under as a business, then you have to make decisions that suck. Prodos made a decision that sucks. It's that simple.

It really is that simple... until folks like yourself try to pressure the victims in this case to just suck it up and shut up instead of applying some positive consumer pressure to the perpetrators (Prodos obviously in this case) to make it right for their own company's sake. That makes it worse. You've expended some effort into the former... how much time have you spent doing the latter? Btw, complaining about complaining is by definition still complaining.

I'm not going to do the edit quote thing.. that's way too much work for a random post on one of many forums.. but look.. You're throwing yourself in front of general comments. When I said that people who admitted that they weren't even AVP backers are posting the same stuff on every page.. that's obviously NOT directed at you. Also.. you're ignoring that I've repeatedly said that Prodos has botched their AVP Kickstarter. When I talk about business decisions.. business decisions rarely take anyone's feelings into account. So Yeah.. that sucks. I have said that sucks. What I have never said is, suck it up and be quiet. What I DID say is WE GET IT. If people made this much noise on every OTHER place that Prodos actually reads, then something would be done. If people commented this frequentily to FOX about their interests in this, then maybe something would get done. Kicking a rotting corpse of a horse in a N&R forum isn't going to get you your stuff. Is that a bit raw? Maybe but I was in your exact spot for a couple hundred bucks for the G&G battleboards, Ranger Project, and Burn-In Designs.. I started getting on Kickstarter EVERY DAY. I started going to their posts on blogs and facebook and other forums that I knew they were active on and hounding them directly. We know not to back a Prodos KS. I wouldn't anyway. Right now technology is in their hands that is intriguing and beneficial and what I would think gamers would want is to understand what that tech can do and how to get it out to more vendors.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:
we don't even know how much of the Fox problems were actually Fox's fault, all we have are prodos word for it and let's look at how honest they've been.

Really I don't think there would be soooooooo much crud being tossed if you weren't such a die hard defender. If you would have just said "okay they have issues" and let it go then I know I wouldn't be here constantly shooting down your defenses.

Would everyone let it go? I know you weren't directing that at me but the same notion should apply right? I've said they had issues. I offered other thoughts that weren't "burn them!!!!" and it wasn't even praise but I'm being labeled as a champion.. The burned people's responses are so bitter and hateful that they don't allow anything other than cut and dry polarized hatred or love.. and that's insanity to me.

Joyboozer wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
"Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?

Why is it a seperate issue? Oh, it's a Kickstarter so it doesn't count?
Issues with Fox on some aspects I understand. The way they have acted on everything they as Prodos are responsible for is somehow ok, because it's just backers of their Kickstarter?

Why should it be a separate issue? if they have a stellar failure and 12+ successful works as contractors which is the track record?

Prodos sent me my missing Archon tail today. Got it in less than 2 weeks.

That's neither here nor there, but it was certainly a lot easier getting that from them than say, having to hassle with Titan Forge or Avatars of War over and over and OVER again to replace a missing part.

It's a really clean cast. Fit well too.

Putting the thing together makes me hopeful Prodos can get their gak together, produce some more somewhat original figures, and get this whole debacle past them.

Totally going to order some Unicast stuff when I get back from Japan, especially if it helps get some more coins in their coffers in order to get you guys your AVP stuff.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
"Proven track record" been only how bad they handled and still handle AVP? versus everything else?

Why is it a seperate issue? Oh, it's a Kickstarter so it doesn't count?
Issues with Fox on some aspects I understand. The way they have acted on everything they as Prodos are responsible for is somehow ok, because it's just backers of their Kickstarter?

Why should it be a separate issue? if they have a stellar failure and 12+ successful works as contractors which is the track record?

As the majority of us are dealing with Prodos as customers and not contractors, it's the failure.

More importantly, if they start with metal masters, and can actually do what they claim, would this be considered Alchemy?

Joyboozer wrote:

As the majority of us are dealing with Prodos as customers and not contractors, it's the failure.

Although as I have already said if you are a Prodos customer who didn't back the AVP KS then there doesn't seem to be any issues.

It would be nice if every thread connected with Prodos didn't turn out the same way due to the same half dozen posters.....

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:

As the majority of us are dealing with Prodos as customers and not contractors, it's the failure.

Although as I have already said if you are a Prodos customer who didn't back the AVP KS then there doesn't seem to be any issues.

It would be nice if every thread connected with Prodos didn't turn out the same way due to the same half dozen posters.....

Hey, the balls in Prodos's court.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Out of curiosity, if they did AVP2 KS in unicast would you invest in it? Do not answer its rhetorical but its a clear example of how Prodos is perceived.

No for several factors.

The most important one and it is from Warzone, is because they change design direction if a few vocal backers bark loud enouph, the Bauhaus redesign from something factional and designed at present to the old tired design of two and a half decades ago because a few but vocal backers wanted the old design.

Second is because it is evident they cannot handle a licence from a big licence holder, it is quite probable that knowing what they know now they could handle it better, but meh needs to be proven first.

Thirdly is because AVP leaves me cold as are most or all licences, I would rather see something new and original.

I can understand about backers not having items send, Mantic still own me a deluxe dreadball pit and a few miscast/ never send team members, CMON needed a year to send me the missing sleeves from Xenosyft and still has not send me that cell door from Zombiside, but I do not go raving on every thread their name is mentioned.

I forgot how fast they changed the designs bit. To be honest that can be a good or bad thing, for example I understand your bauhaus point but it actually was a life saviour for their spacecrusade fiasco cheesy minis.

As for licenses and looking at your avatar would you not go crazy with a Halflife KS? Personally for me Aliens is my favorite license of all times I'm a huge fan of it for decades now, to see it handled like this is errr disappointing. Surely better days will come.
To be more on topic when I was at Salute years ago with the first prototypes I was impressed with the durability of the resin used since Aliens tails were soooo thin yet quite resistant. A year later I checked the production models IRL and was still very impressed. This is to say that its not all doom or gloom. They are good with their casting and that is reassuring for the new Unicast thing. Depends also on the resin they will use for it.