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This is list 1, and it's 10 points over. I am not sure what to trim at this point. I might have to drop a level of psyker from the herald and add 15 points elsewhere through various upgrades.
This focus's on buffing the soul grinders saves to a 3++, with rerolling 1s while fatey flies around and wreaks havoc.
List One - Grinding Souls
Daemon Lord
Fateweaver

WarpFlame Host
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Herald w/Level 2 Psyker, Locus of Conjuration

Forgehost
Soul Grinder of Tzeentch
Soul Grinder of Tzeentch
Soul Grinder of Tzeentch


List Two - We all Scream for Screamers
This is list 2. It's 15 points under at this point. I don't have the loci of conjuration, and it's tight on points, but it brings a ton of models to the table.
The idea is board control and threats with the screamers and lots of summoning from the warpflame host.
WarpFlame Host
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Herald

Burning Skyhost
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers
Herald w/Disc


Thanks for taking the time to review and provide feedback!

For your list 1, I keep looking at the 3 soul grinders and wondering if they are better than a single renegade knight with dual avenger cannons. On paper they are 3 units instead of 1, and 12 hull points instead of 6 and have 5++ all the time, but the knight can also engage multiple targets with its weapons and is a super heavy, and also moves 12". I don't think Soulgrinders are all that great anymore.

I feel like your second list could be interesting. It seems solid, but I feel like maybe units of 3 screamers, even alot of them, will die too quickly and not put out enough damage when they do actually get to attack something. Also, they will be popping regularly to instability instead of tarpitting things, unlike Demonkin fearless dogs for example.

Just my initial thoughts, they both are worth trying out though.

 whitedragon wrote:
For your list 1, I keep looking at the 3 soul grinders and wondering if they are better than a single renegade knight with dual avenger cannons. On paper they are 3 units instead of 1, and 12 hull points instead of 6 and have 5++ all the time, but the knight can also engage multiple targets with its weapons and is a super heavy, and also moves 12". I don't think Soulgrinders are all that great anymore.

I've played a version of the 1850 list a few times, and it's interesting. The whole of the list is greater than the sum of it's parts. With Fatey as the warlord, they are getting a 10 on the warp storm in 55% of the turns. Either the herald or the horrors are likely to get 'cursed earth', which is then placed so it catches all 3 grinders. This gives each grinder a 3++ save, rerolling ones -- or a 7/9 (78%) chance of saving. They are extremely durable that way and hard to dislodge. I've not used them to chase down enemies, but instead just use board control in the center of the board to hold objectives.

The horrors sound really nasty with STR 7 flickering fire, but I've found it to be a bit underwhelming. The best use I've seen is to crack open light armor as 2d6 STR 7 shots can be a problem for rhinos. They do act as a nice warp battery for fatey -- who is doing the majority of the heavy lifting. They can also summon lots of reinforcements, and I don't care much if they perils.

It works fairly well at 1850, but I am afraid at 1500 it's going to fall short.

 whitedragon wrote:
I feel like your second list could be interesting. It seems solid, but I feel like maybe units of 3 screamers, even alot of them, will die too quickly and not put out enough damage when they do actually get to attack something. Also, they will be popping regularly to instability instead of tarpitting things, unlike Demonkin fearless dogs for example.

Those are good points, and it is a worry that 30+ scatbikes will be able to kill all the screamers before I can hurt them. 54 wounds is just not that much to kill when you are hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. If I owned dogs, I would take them -- but you have to work with what you have.

Depending on how bad they lose combat the instability thing might not be an issue. The formation lets you reroll instability tests, so you have 2 shots to make it. I talk a lot about the math behind that in this article. While it's not fearless, it's better than nothing.

I do appreciate the input, and you have given me a lot to think about.

The first list seems much more well rounded. How do you deal with flyers in the second list without Fateweaver or the Soul Grinders? It looks like a fun list to play, but I think you really need some more points to round it out. At 1850 you could get both fateweaver and a few upgrades for the herald on the disc like paradox and ML2, or grimoire.

staticchange wrote:
How do you deal with flyers in the second list without Fateweaver or the Soul Grinders?

Ignore them, or shoot STR 7 flickering fire at them. If I'm facing a flier heavy army, both heralds could go divination for prescience. Put 2 of the exalted flamers in a single squad, then prescience both squads to give the flickering fire and exalted flamers a 30% to hit. That should be on average one STR 10, AP2 hit, sometimes getting two of them. It should also put 4.3 STR 7 hits on a flier. Of course with such few dice rolled to generate those hits, I can't reply on the law of large numbers to give consistent averages -- like you can when making 90 ork attacks.

staticchange wrote:
It looks like a fun list to play, but I think you really need some more points to round it out. At 1850 you could get both fateweaver and a few upgrades for the herald on the disc like paradox and ML2, or grimoire.

That's exactly what happens it's bump it to 1850. At 1500, my hope is that there are less targets to worry about and I can overwhelm them with screamers and summoned units.

List one, when bumped to 1850 gets 1-2 helldrakes added, giving more AP3 torrent fun. I've not tested it with that, but I am looking forward to it. (If you want to add phelm to each grinder and buff up the herald more, then you only have room for one drake, if you keep them bare bones you can bring 2


Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it.

i tried this
murderhorde
K herald juggernaut lesser reward exalted locus
8x5 hounds
burning skyhost
Tz herald 1°level disc paradox
9x3 screamers
command
Kairos
only 5-d6 WC but what you need is just cursed earth, i could swap paradox for grimorie, but with paradox in this list i can have 1 summon granted each turn if i need, fast durable good board control, lot of wounds, it shines against gladius and eldars

blackmage, did you find that you had issues getting cursed earth off when an opponent had more warpcharge than you to deny?

 labmouse42 wrote:
It should also put 4.3 STR 7 hits on a flier.

I don't see a loci on your herald though in the second list, so won't it just be STR 6? That extra point make a big difference when trying to take down armor 12.

Other than that, the point about the exalted flamers is valid. I recently used them in a few games and found their range to be very limiting, but if you're shooting at a flyer at least you can move and shoot since the snap shots won't bother you anyway.

Screamer formation is salt on the slug of warp spiders. No jumpy jumpy vs slash!

 Kholzerino wrote:
Screamer formation is salt on the slug of warp spiders. No jumpy jumpy vs slash!

Agreed. Despite the flaws, there are a lot of things I like about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

staticchange wrote:
I don't see a loci on your herald though in the second list, so won't it just be STR 6? That extra point make a big difference when trying to take down armor 12.

You are correct, I was thinking of the 1850 list. I'm still not as worries at 1500, as most armies will have less fliers at that point value. Most fliers also won't be able to kill enough models to be a huge threat.

staticchange wrote:
Other than that, the point about the exalted flamers is valid. I recently used them in a few games and found their range to be very limiting, but if you're shooting at a flyer at least you can move and shoot since the snap shots won't bother you anyway.

I view the exalted flamers as board control, and they excel at the task. Since my horrors are usually sitting on objectives with little movement the flamers help to keep models from assaulting them, in addition to providing a few ablative wounds to the unit.

They are not perfect. I've still had my horror squads assaulted by wraiths, who were ignoring the shots with a 3++ save. However, in more games than not, I've had them to a great job at roasting squads of necron immortals landing near my horrors, assault marines, or drop podding cents. Most people are used to the horrors being the soft targets in the back you can easily engage with little or no threat. Having four STR 6, AP3 torrent flamers changes that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whitedragon wrote:
blackmage, did you find that you had issues getting cursed earth off when an opponent had more warpcharge than you to deny?

The best strategy I've seen to help with this is to cast cursed earth as your second to last power.

Most people think you are saving your 'best for 'last'. That's why my last power is always the one I don't mind if it gets blocked, as I know all my opponents dice will be thrown at it anyway. This is the order I throw my powers.

- Minor buff or witchfire (To draw out deny dice)
- Power I want (like cursed earth)
- Summoning or Incursion (since it will likely be denied, might as well make it hard to deny)

I'll still toss 3 at cursed earth to make it harder to deny. Denying 2 successes is much harder than one.