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 Selym wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Tau are what you play when you want to ensure that everyone, yourself included, ends up miserable!

Tau Eldar Space Marines Necrons 40k armies are what you play when you want to ensure that everyone, yourself included, ends up miserable!

Do I detect excessive levels of... salt? o.0 haha

The thing about Space Marines and Necrons is that there are a number of builds that can still be fun and competitive that are not overpowering and un-fun to play against, and you do see these sorts of builds quite often outside of the tournament scene. Tau and Eldar have the possibility, but you are almost surely never going to see builds from those armies that are going to make you never want to play those armies again (Eldar to a slightly lesser extent than Tau).

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
2 where is this galaxy number bit of fluff from?
My hate burns strong for the current dark Elder. The new codex saw me selling my army off due to the changes wrought my builds were made unplayable. Was not going to by whole new army to be able to compete. Feth heads

Codex Tyranids (5th ed) says they've probably been eating other galaxies for millenia, while White Dwarf 145 (UK) says they've eaten thousands of them.

Found these tidbits here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranid

I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

Necrons. Biggest OP thing is there ability to Come Back From Everything. I could see them doing that against everything BUT Instant Kill Weaponry and such. Makes it zero fun to play against and very annoying. That's my own real beef with them. I play Drop Pod Space Marines so unless I come across a Tau player who maxes out on Overwatch or Skyfire Weaponry I have zero issues with them. Most armies are balanced out pretty well, and while Space Marines are strong they aren't super cheesy for the most part. Some armies need updates still and some armies need to be toned down but for the most part the game is pretty balanced.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

It could surprise you, but I find marines interesting just as foils of Chaos Marines. They are interesting only as fallen angels.

In an hypothetical reboot of 40k with orcs, 1 eldar faction, tyranids, tau, necrons, I would be content with just 1 human faction with guards, mechanicus, and sisters/inquisition with different roles in the army, with an overhaul of the design toward the gothic.

Is not what I wish and I of course let all the marine players enjoy their power armoured supermen. I speak on a personal level, mind it.

But of all the imperial forces, the marines are by far the dullest. The only interesting thing is the heresy (that humanise them) and this is why the CSM are more interesting by far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar are bland and boring Mary Sue's as are Marines. Both factions fluff is literally 'we are great, elegant and impossibly graceful beings and we are much better than everything else'

Game play wise both are overpowered and boring.

Where the "mary-sueness" of Eldar lies?

In their clear arrogance and racism?

In their evident weakness? why should the Dark Eldar be so perverted, or the Craftworld ones so restrained, if not out of fear? Is fear what they are suffering. A fear that is suffocating them. Inescapable.

Their actions ripped the universe a new a****le, they paid hard for it and still pay, they fight, to steal the words of a Tolkien Eldar, a "long defeat". Their gods are gone and they have to sacrifice their greatest champions to call back momentarily a fragment of one. True Mary sues would just fart avatars effortlessly when needed.

Are you sure to know what a Mary sue is? I don't think so, frankly.

At my old FLGS I always got complained at for not playing SM. It was 90% SM players, a couple of Tau players and my guard. The SM guys didn't know how to win against guard.

I ended up making a SW list because my buddy got tired of playing against (well, losing against) my guard. Made him and a bunch of other people happy, and I kinda enjoyed painting an modelling a more characterful army.

Guard will always be my favourite though.

Chaos for me simply because I don't know enough about the game to judge but I am sworn to hate them with all my units due to collecting Dark Angels :-p

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

That's exactly why I hate them. I despise the focus on Space Marines so much it's one of the things that put me off playing 40k and into Fantasy fully... y'know, until they killed it so they could sell Sigmarines.

I don't know about others, but expecting every other army I play against to be some variety of loyalist Marine is really, really boring. It doesn't help that the majority of releases are sucked up by them, that literally half of the playable factions are Imperials and most of those are Space Marines. They should just absorb Dark Angels, Blood Angels and maybe Space Wolves into the main 'dex and have done with it, but we all know that won't happen because they print money. Heck, Black Templar players have been complaining for what, seven or so years now that they need a 'dex to tell them they can take scouts in tactical squads.

The vast majority of the fluff focused on the Imperium, but that wouldn't be so bad since everything that isn't a bloody Space Marine is usually pretty interesting. Yeah, Tau fluff is apparently 'bad' but what we need is another regurgitated story about how the "super humans smash in and slaughter the evil Xenos/Chaos/whatever but suffer grievous losses, that only furthers their resolve to succeed in the name of the Emperor!" ZzzzZZzzzz. The Imperium sure doesn't feel on the brink when they appear to win every other fight in the damn fluff. I think that's why the recent stuff with the Tau actually winning a major victory was met with such scorn. It doesn't help that being Daddy's Favourite has given many Space Marine players - BY NO MEANS MOST - a pretty entitled attitude, that has them kick and scream if their 'dex isn't updated within about a year... not that the others don't do it.

40k would be about a million times better of a game and story if Space Marines didn't exist, and the Imperial Guard were at the forefront of the Imperium's military affairs (I know it IS in the lore but not elsewhere). Maybe then I might be able to enjoy the tabletop without being bored of seeing power armour constantly.

At least Horus Heresy is unrepretantly honest about being "the Space Marine vs Space Marine" game which is why I don't mind it. I honestly believe GW wish they could just squat every non-Imperial faction overnight and focus entirely on the Imperium and even then, Space Marines specifically.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

That's exactly why I hate them. I despise the focus on Space Marines so much it's one of the things that put me off playing 40k and into Fantasy fully... y'know, until they killed it so they could sell Sigmarines.

I don't know about others, but expecting every other army I play against to be some variety of loyalist Marine is really, really boring. It doesn't help that the majority of releases are sucked up by them, that literally half of the playable factions are Imperials and most of those are Space Marines. They should just absorb Dark Angels, Blood Angels and maybe Space Wolves into the main 'dex and have done with it, but we all know that won't happen because they print money. Heck, Black Templar players have been complaining for what, seven or so years now that they need a 'dex to tell them they can take scouts in tactical squads.

The vast majority of the fluff focused on the Imperium, but that wouldn't be so bad since everything that isn't a bloody Space Marine is usually pretty interesting. Yeah, Tau fluff is apparently 'bad' but what we need is another regurgitated story about how the "super humans smash in and slaughter the evil Xenos/Chaos/whatever but suffer grievous losses, that only furthers their resolve to succeed in the name of the Emperor!" ZzzzZZzzzz. The Imperium sure doesn't feel on the brink when they appear to win every other fight in the damn fluff. I think that's why the recent stuff with the Tau actually winning a major victory was met with such scorn. It doesn't help that being Daddy's Favourite has given many Space Marine players - BY NO MEANS MOST - a pretty entitled attitude, that has them kick and scream if their 'dex isn't updated within about a year... not that the others don't do it.

40k would be about a million times better of a game and story if Space Marines didn't exist, and the Imperial Guard were at the forefront of the Imperium's military affairs (I know it IS in the lore but not elsewhere). Maybe then I might be able to enjoy the tabletop without being bored of seeing power armour constantly.

At least Horus Heresy is unrepretantly honest about being "the Space Marine vs Space Marine" game which is why I don't mind it. I honestly believe GW wish they could just squat every non-Imperial faction overnight and focus entirely on the Imperium and even then, Space Marines specifically.

That is a horrific nightmare of endless space marines. What the hell is even the point of the setting if that ever happened?

 Gamgee wrote:
That is a horrific nightmare of endless space marines. What the hell is even the point of the setting if that ever happened?

Because REAL Grimdark™ only comes in T4 3+ packages.

Aren't the Tau suits T4 3+?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Aren't the Tau suits T4 3+?

Yes, but not W1

The worst faction? In terms of worst = crappiest, the answer is: whichever I pick.

No, seriously, the faction I choose to model gets the nerfbat or ignored by the buffbot -- they go from middling-okish factions to lowest-tier, are-you-crazy-why-did-you-pick-that factions. Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels were the last 4 factions that I built armies of.

I bet if I do Eldar next, Wraithknights will be recosted to 800 points base and JSJ will be replaced with Hatred/Genestealers. Or Terminators!

 Talys wrote:
The worst faction? In terms of worst = crappiest, the answer is: whichever I pick.

No, seriously, the faction I choose to model gets the nerfbat or ignored by the buffbot -- they go from middling-okish factions to lowest-tier, are-you-crazy-why-did-you-pick-that factions. Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels were the last 4 factions that I built armies of.

I bet if I do Eldar next, Wraithknights will be recosted to 800 points base and JSJ will be replaced with Hatred/Genestealers. Or Terminators!

And to think, I thought I had bad luck when it came to armies.... Only the last two I did turned out to be middling to terrible (Guard and I have a small DE army)

Talys, you need to collect the rest of the armies, then we might have a balanced game!

The worst faction to play against is probably Necrons for me. Either really boring to play against, not doing anything to the army. I don't care about losing, it's when I've made little to no impact on the opponents army that makes me think 'geez, what even was the point of those 5 hours'.

Fluff wise it's the boys in blue. Never have I ever been a Mary-Sue. Although the Necrons retconned fluff is just stupid.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

That's exactly why I hate them. I despise the focus on Space Marines so much it's one of the things that put me off playing 40k and into Fantasy fully... y'know, until they killed it so they could sell Sigmarines.

I don't know about others, but expecting every other army I play against to be some variety of loyalist Marine is really, really boring. It doesn't help that the majority of releases are sucked up by them, that literally half of the playable factions are Imperials and most of those are Space Marines. They should just absorb Dark Angels, Blood Angels and maybe Space Wolves into the main 'dex and have done with it, but we all know that won't happen because they print money. Heck, Black Templar players have been complaining for what, seven or so years now that they need a 'dex to tell them they can take scouts in tactical squads.

The vast majority of the fluff focused on the Imperium, but that wouldn't be so bad since everything that isn't a bloody Space Marine is usually pretty interesting. Yeah, Tau fluff is apparently 'bad' but what we need is another regurgitated story about how the "super humans smash in and slaughter the evil Xenos/Chaos/whatever but suffer grievous losses, that only furthers their resolve to succeed in the name of the Emperor!" ZzzzZZzzzz. The Imperium sure doesn't feel on the brink when they appear to win every other fight in the damn fluff. I think that's why the recent stuff with the Tau actually winning a major victory was met with such scorn. It doesn't help that being Daddy's Favourite has given many Space Marine players - BY NO MEANS MOST - a pretty entitled attitude, that has them kick and scream if their 'dex isn't updated within about a year... not that the others don't do it.

40k would be about a million times better of a game and story if Space Marines didn't exist, and the Imperial Guard were at the forefront of the Imperium's military affairs (I know it IS in the lore but not elsewhere). Maybe then I might be able to enjoy the tabletop without being bored of seeing power armour constantly.

At least Horus Heresy is unrepretantly honest about being "the Space Marine vs Space Marine" game which is why I don't mind it. I honestly believe GW wish they could just squat every non-Imperial faction overnight and focus entirely on the Imperium and even then, Space Marines specifically.

absolutely spot on. Love playing against guard, they have character and feel 'fresh' to play each time I see them. It gets so incredibly dull seeing the same armies over and over, just getting more and more powerful.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

That's exactly why I hate them. I despise the focus on Space Marines so much it's one of the things that put me off playing 40k and into Fantasy fully... y'know, until they killed it so they could sell Sigmarines.

I don't know about others, but expecting every other army I play against to be some variety of loyalist Marine is really, really boring. It doesn't help that the majority of releases are sucked up by them, that literally half of the playable factions are Imperials and most of those are Space Marines. They should just absorb Dark Angels, Blood Angels and maybe Space Wolves into the main 'dex and have done with it, but we all know that won't happen because they print money. Heck, Black Templar players have been complaining for what, seven or so years now that they need a 'dex to tell them they can take scouts in tactical squads.

The vast majority of the fluff focused on the Imperium, but that wouldn't be so bad since everything that isn't a bloody Space Marine is usually pretty interesting. Yeah, Tau fluff is apparently 'bad' but what we need is another regurgitated story about how the "super humans smash in and slaughter the evil Xenos/Chaos/whatever but suffer grievous losses, that only furthers their resolve to succeed in the name of the Emperor!" ZzzzZZzzzz. The Imperium sure doesn't feel on the brink when they appear to win every other fight in the damn fluff. I think that's why the recent stuff with the Tau actually winning a major victory was met with such scorn. It doesn't help that being Daddy's Favourite has given many Space Marine players - BY NO MEANS MOST - a pretty entitled attitude, that has them kick and scream if their 'dex isn't updated within about a year... not that the others don't do it.

40k would be about a million times better of a game and story if Space Marines didn't exist, and the Imperial Guard were at the forefront of the Imperium's military affairs (I know it IS in the lore but not elsewhere). Maybe then I might be able to enjoy the tabletop without being bored of seeing power armour constantly.

At least Horus Heresy is unrepretantly honest about being "the Space Marine vs Space Marine" game which is why I don't mind it. I honestly believe GW wish they could just squat every non-Imperial faction overnight and focus entirely on the Imperium and even then, Space Marines specifically.

To expand on this, 40K tabletop would be better if one (or both) of the two following happened:

-- The Armies of the Imperium were condensed to put them more on par with the other factions of the 40K universe.
-- The remaining factions of 40K that aren't the Imperium begin down a path where they at least start to get the same sort of variability as the Imperium. Introducing such flavour would help balance the game as well as have positive effects on the fluff.

I disagree that 40K would be better without Space Marines (from any standpoint)), but maybe the variability (such as having the DA, BA and SW codeces) should be significantly reduced, with factions having a supplement at most.

Fluff-wise, I agree that 40K would be a lot better off if the Space Marines and the constant victories of the Imperium were put on back-burners, allowing for more significant loses on the part of the Imperium as well as significant gains for the other factions. Plus the introduction of more variability within the non-Imperium factions will add to the fluff significantly as well.

I think colouring your view of space marines by how some players are donkey-caves is the wrong way to judge them.

I like space marines, mainly because they turn guard from the strongest faction in the imperium, to the underdogs. Without SM, I would have no interest in guard.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I think colouring your view of space marines by how some players are donkey-caves is the wrong way to judge them.

I like space marines, mainly because they turn guard from the strongest faction in the imperium, to the underdogs. Without SM, I would have no interest in guard.

As I said before for the Marines/CSM contrast - their are not interesting by themselves, they are good foils.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

The worst faction in terms of sheer power-level is probably Imperial Guard or Orks- I can already feel Martel's rage at such an assertion, but I'd rank even BA over them in general.

As far as design, I'd say Tau are the worst faction. They aren't the absolute strongest, but they're the only faction in the game who are designed from the ground up to outright ignore almost three entire phases of the game. Their fluff and general aesthetic on the other hand don't bother me much.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I think colouring your view of space marines by how some players are donkey-caves is the wrong way to judge them.

I like space marines, mainly because they turn guard from the strongest faction in the imperium, to the underdogs. Without SM, I would have no interest in guard.

As I said before for the Marines/CSM contrast - their are not interesting by themselves, they are good foils.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

I agree, the thing is, after reading the HH books, I've become much more interested in SM in general, as you also said, it humanises them, they're not faceless automatons that they seem like, but rather people who happen to be 7ft tall and fused ribs.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm surprised at how many people dislike Space Marines. 40K is basically Space Marines the game.

That's exactly why I hate them. I despise the focus on Space Marines so much it's one of the things that put me off playing 40k and into Fantasy fully... y'know, until they killed it so they could sell Sigmarines.

I don't know about others, but expecting every other army I play against to be some variety of loyalist Marine is really, really boring. It doesn't help that the majority of releases are sucked up by them, that literally half of the playable factions are Imperials and most of those are Space Marines. They should just absorb Dark Angels, Blood Angels and maybe Space Wolves into the main 'dex and have done with it, but we all know that won't happen because they print money. Heck, Black Templar players have been complaining for what, seven or so years now that they need a 'dex to tell them they can take scouts in tactical squads.

The vast majority of the fluff focused on the Imperium, but that wouldn't be so bad since everything that isn't a bloody Space Marine is usually pretty interesting. Yeah, Tau fluff is apparently 'bad' but what we need is another regurgitated story about how the "super humans smash in and slaughter the evil Xenos/Chaos/whatever but suffer grievous losses, that only furthers their resolve to succeed in the name of the Emperor!" ZzzzZZzzzz. The Imperium sure doesn't feel on the brink when they appear to win every other fight in the damn fluff. I think that's why the recent stuff with the Tau actually winning a major victory was met with such scorn. It doesn't help that being Daddy's Favourite has given many Space Marine players - BY NO MEANS MOST - a pretty entitled attitude, that has them kick and scream if their 'dex isn't updated within about a year... not that the others don't do it.

40k would be about a million times better of a game and story if Space Marines didn't exist, and the Imperial Guard were at the forefront of the Imperium's military affairs (I know it IS in the lore but not elsewhere). Maybe then I might be able to enjoy the tabletop without being bored of seeing power armour constantly.

At least Horus Heresy is unrepretantly honest about being "the Space Marine vs Space Marine" game which is why I don't mind it. I honestly believe GW wish they could just squat every non-Imperial faction overnight and focus entirely on the Imperium and even then, Space Marines specifically.

To expand on this, 40K tabletop would be better if one (or both) of the two following happened:

-- The Armies of the Imperium were condensed to put them more on par with the other factions of the 40K universe.
-- The remaining factions of 40K that aren't the Imperium begin down a path where they at least start to get the same sort of variability as the Imperium. Introducing such flavour would help balance the game as well as have positive effects on the fluff.

I disagree that 40K would be better without Space Marines (from any standpoint)), but maybe the variability (such as having the DA, BA and SW codeces) should be significantly reduced, with factions having a supplement at most.

Fluff-wise, I agree that 40K would be a lot better off if the Space Marines and the constant victories of the Imperium were put on back-burners, allowing for more significant loses on the part of the Imperium as well as significant gains for the other factions. Plus the introduction of more variability within the non-Imperium factions will add to the fluff significantly as well.

GW tried that in the past, and the Loyalist fan base simply went apegak crazy and QQ'd like a bunch of spoiled 4 year olds... (Armageddon & Eye of Terror campaigns anyone?!)
The last big campaign they did in Medusa V, was simply laughable as it basically ended up as a pants on head stupid "everybody's a winner - especially the Imperium!", as if we were all still a bunch of tykes getting their participation ribbons.

Forge World on the other hand doesn't give a flying fart about what fan bases think, hence why their campaign books are so much better. Most of the time, the Imperium loses in the end, or else the cost of overall victory is so high, that Imperial moral is pretty much crushed in the process.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I think colouring your view of space marines by how some players are donkey-caves is the wrong way to judge them.

I like space marines, mainly because they turn guard from the strongest faction in the imperium, to the underdogs. Without SM, I would have no interest in guard.

I think you missed the point. It's not the players (at least not always) it's the fact that GW focuses so damn hard on Space Marines to the detriment of everything else.

 Imateria wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I think colouring your view of space marines by how some players are donkey-caves is the wrong way to judge them.

I like space marines, mainly because they turn guard from the strongest faction in the imperium, to the underdogs. Without SM, I would have no interest in guard.

I think you missed the point. It's not the players (at least not always) it's the fact that GW focuses so damn hard on Space Marines to the detriment of everything else.

Eh, some people were decrying the players. Of course they focus on SM, that's what sells. It's their flagship product line, and has been for as long as I've been playing. I guess I just don't have a problem with it like a lot of people, or maybe I just don't take it so personally. I'd love to see a new guard line, and won't buy more guard until there is one, but I don't get upset when there's a new SM line or codex.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Forge World on the other hand doesn't give a flying fart about what fan bases think, hence why their campaign books are so much better. Most of the time, the Imperium loses in the end, or else the cost of overall victory is so high, that Imperial moral is pretty much crushed in the process.

Which of course IoM players then go and whine about non-stop, as you can see in regards to IA14, which hasn't even come out yet and we know next to nothing about but we already know it's gonna suck because the Imperium is destined to lose.

I don't really understand it, either. Even if the Imperium loses again in IA14 it doesn't really lose, does it? I mean what's the worst that happens? Oh no, the Imperium totally just lost that Forge World...that we'd never heard of before and had no idea even existed until now. Oh no, Culln is interred in a dreadnought now, those dirty fething Tau got him...except that was clearly going to happen anyway because FW wanted to sell a new model and there's a logical progression going on from his first iteration to the last, with the next "upgrade" obviously being a dreadnought. Sure, they can write fluff about how it's a devastating loss and the Imperium will never recover or whatever, but it doesn't really change anything; losing a Forge World will probably affect production of certain vehicles or war machines, I'd imagine, but FW and GW still sell the same models they did before, and they're not going to pull those models from sale because of some stupid fluff they wrote in a new book, either, so there's no real consequence. Actually we're getting a bunch of new ones with the release of the book, so it's a gain for everyone involved. Even if the Tau lost this one, which honestly is kind of what I'm expecting, I just got a new, updated barracuda model that looks the business, so why the feth do I care again?

No matter how many millions or billions of Guardsmen die, there's still trillions more waiting to die in future books. No matter how many made-up planets that we never knew the Imperium needed in the first place are lost, there's practically an infinite number of them left that GW will use for new conflicts. The Imperium never grows, but it never seems to shrink, either, and despite the tone of the setting being grim and depressing, and being constantly told that the Imperium is fighting a losing battle, they're on a knife's edge, it's minutes to midnight, humanity is doomed, etc. etc., they still keep getting new toys and still keep putting up a better fight than half the other factions in the game, even ones that the background would have us believe have practically already won.

Christ, it's almost like this is a setting for a game or something, and the background only exists to give us context for why the Miniature Space Menz are fighting each other in the felt forests or the dunes of beach sand, and GW practically just makes gak up as they go along in order to push a new toy on us every now and then...a new toy which was totally there all along guys, and in fact was the backbone of your Miniature Space Menz army all along, so you totally need to go buy like 6 of them right now so your Space Menz are all right and proppa (at least until the next new toy replaces your old one).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The worst faction in terms of sheer power-level is probably Imperial Guard or Orks- I can already feel Martel's rage at such an assertion, but I'd rank even BA over them in general.

As far as design, I'd say Tau are the worst faction. They aren't the absolute strongest, but they're the only faction in the game who are designed from the ground up to outright ignore almost three entire phases of the game. Their fluff and general aesthetic on the other hand don't bother me much.

I thought this was about concept. Power level is it's own thread. BTW I understand the feeling abut IG or Orks, I just don't agree with them.

If we are just talking concept wise ?

Dark Eldar, they just don't serve a pupose other than to make the Craft world Eldar look better. The Craft world Eldar are doomed and tragic, but the Dark Eldar are soo stupidly evil that they should have gone extinct. They are cartoonishly evil.

The Imperium of Man at least believes it's doing the right thing, no matter what they are doing.

Orks are bread for war. They are living their ideal life.

Eldar are a fallen race, doomed and tragic.

Necrons are an ancient empire, past it's prime, but re-emerging to reclaim it's greatness.

Tau are optimistic explorers trying to grow and help others.

Tyranids are hunger that never stops. They are a force of nature incarnate, consuming and multiplying without end.

Chaos is literally the stuff of nightmares come to life. The dark thoughts of the collective Pyche of the sentient races made manifest.

I would have soo much more enjoyed Eldar Exodites or a less creepy Eldar Pirates.

If humans did all the stuff Dark Eldar did they would instantly be associated with Chaos, but Dark Eldar are not Chaos Eldar for "reasons"

 Sidstyler wrote:
Oh no, the Imperium totally just lost that Forge World...that we'd never heard of before and had no idea even existed until now.

I get what you're trying to say, but Gryphonne IV was one of the better-known forge worlds after Mars, Lucius and Ryza, as home of one of the more successful Legions Titanicus

On topic:
in my experience, Tau and Eldar are the main armies I have issues with from a game play perspective, Tau more than Eldar. There is cheese in both, but I'm not denying there's cheese in other armies
from a fluff perspective, I'd say Necrons 7th ed, because of the "gotta catch 'em all" thing with FETHING GODS
and from a perspective of comparing how they are in the fluff to how they are on the TT, IG. most of the books that focus on the guard read nothing like how they can be played.

 adamsouza wrote:

Tau are optimistic explorers trying to grow and help others.

Really? Isn't the whole point of the greater good that they're essentially a selfish empire who will do whatever it takes to advance their own. "Greater Good" doesn't mean helping others, it means the ends justifies the means, and for the Tau, that's inherently selfish.

I personally dislike the factions that get left out. Sisters, inquisition, and militarum tempestus in particular.

They should give them SOMETHING worthwhile, some of their army lists make my Harlequins look like they have a full fledged army!