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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I personally dislike the factions that get left out. Sisters, inquisition, and militarum tempestus in particular.

They should give them SOMETHING worthwhile, some of their army lists make my Harlequins look like they have a full fledged army!

SoB maybe, but the Armies of the Imperium don't really need any more diversity than they already have.

Yeah, pretty much. The Greater Good was never about "helping" anyone else, it's about doing what's best for the Tau race and the Empire, and as far as I'm aware of that's what it's always been about. The Tau ultimately believe that the entire galaxy is theirs to inherit, that it's their manifest destiny to bring all the other races together under their banner, or destroy them. They believe they're "helping" people by subjugating them. They're "optimistic" in the sense that they truly believe their technology and themselves to be superior to all other races, and that they can overcome literally any foe, even the Imperium given enough time. They "grow" mostly by military conquest, since few races join the Empire willingly.

And my bad on IA14, I assumed it was taking place on a made up world, must have overlooked that bit somewhere or just not understood the significance of Gryphonne IV. In any case my point still stands, even if it is a major location and it ends up being lost, nothing is really at stake, and it won't have any significant impact on anything. All the factions are going to keep existing, we'll still be able to buy all the same models (or new ones), etc. IA14 is just another story and the "winner" is completely random and pretty much just up to whoever is writing it.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I personally dislike the factions that get left out. Sisters, inquisition, and militarum tempestus in particular.

They should give them SOMETHING worthwhile, some of their army lists make my Harlequins look like they have a full fledged army!

SoB, sure, they need more than just more diversity in models though, but that's a whole other discussion
The point of inquisition and MT was always that they were a small, elite force, IMO
they don't really need more than they already have, especially Inquisition, as their infantry squads are far more diverse and changeable than any other squad in the game that I've seen

 Sidstyler wrote:
And my bad on IA14, I assumed it was taking place on a made up world, must have overlooked that bit somewhere or just not understood the significance of Gryphonne IV.

The real significance of Gryphonne IV is that the Tyranids ate it. If that's where IA14 is set then we already know that the Tau lose the war, because we already know how the Imperium finally loses the planet and it isn't against the Tau. So that really makes the anti-Tau complaints ridiculous.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
And my bad on IA14, I assumed it was taking place on a made up world, must have overlooked that bit somewhere or just not understood the significance of Gryphonne IV.

The real significance of Gryphonne IV is that the Tyranids ate it. If that's where IA14 is set then we already know that the Tau lose the war, because we already know how the Imperium finally loses the planet and it isn't against the Tau. So that really makes the anti-Tau complaints ridiculous.

Based on all the discussions from the Warhammer Fest thread I thought it was happening post Nid invasion, a dead world with all the cool Mechanicum toys locked underground.

I'm with the people who dislike space marines. There are ways to do "xenocidal power-armoured mutants" and make it unique and terrifying, but the emphasis GW places on them makes them literally more mundane than Orks and IG.

Because there are a lot more SM players than anything else, there's a lot of variety in terms of their playerbase. But it also feels like there's a larger than usual percentage who are (to put it bluntly) whiny, entitled scrubs, who are used to being given all the best stuff and don't have any problem with others going without. On top of that, a few space marine players scare me IRL, because I can't help but get the impression that they'd run me through with an actual chainsword if given the chance. I.e., their real-world politics line up alarmingly with those of the fictional Skull Eagle Space Nazis. And it doesn't help that Games Workshop doesn't seem to do anything to discourage this all that much.

I try to keep an open mind about individual space marine players, though. ^^;

 Jewelfox wrote:

I can't help but get the impression that they'd run me through with an actual chainsword if given the chance. I.e., their real-world politics line up alarmingly with those of the fictional Skull Eagle Space Nazis. And it doesn't help that Games Workshop doesn't seem to do anything to discourage this all that much.
^^;

Oh lord... That's actually VERY concerning...

 Jewelfox wrote:

I try to keep an open mind about individual space marine players, though. ^^;

Despite saying they're all entitled donkey-caves who would like to attack you and have fascist politics. Real open minded.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I try to keep an open mind about individual space marine players, though. ^^;

Despite saying they're all entitled donkey-caves who would like to attack you and have fascist politics. Real open minded.

He said there are more jerks in them than other armies, he didn't say all of them are and said that he still doesn't judge new players when he meets them. That's very open minded.

Remmick_005 wrote:
. . .I'd say Necrons 7th ed, because of the "gotta catch 'em all" thing with FETHING GODS . . .

I know that this is the internet, and oversimplification is kinda what we do here, but this is one of the two things that frustrate me about the perception of Necrons (the other being Tomb Kings in Space. Seriously. You're stuck in 6th Edition if you think that's all the Necrons are). How is "Our gods betrayed us, so we ENSLAVED THEM!" not considered badass?

Because it's a reversal of the "grimdark" feel of the setting to have the plucky, mortal beings overcome the massively powerful evil entity they made a devil's contract with?

One of the major core themes of the setting is that every single faction is largely engaged in a pointless rat race.

-The imperium is in a state of decay, their most powerful weapons are most frequently used to wipe out entire worlds of humanity.

-The Eldar, despite all their talk of rekindling their empire, are far past the point where they absolutely will go extinct

-The Tyranids, despite being the big nasty galaxy-eating bugaboos, are hinted at having fled from something even worse. Also see Genestealer/Cult fluff

-The Tau are the plucky nation of progress just now realizing how utterly screwed they are and how awful every other race is in the galaxy

-Even in the case of Chaos and Chaos marines, every daemon is essentially struggling in a futile effort to gain power when there's just a minute fraction of the overall strength of each God to be gained. Look at Skarbrand - that was the biggest, baddest daemon in existence. How'd he do?

Meanwhile, we have the newcron fluff. Oh, we sold our soul to these ultra-powerful star gods to help us win this war we were actively losing. When they joined the fight, we won! And then I guess we somehow beat them, because we're just so awesome and great like that.

Give me the hollowed out shells of a foolish mortal race any day.

.

 Imateria wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
And my bad on IA14, I assumed it was taking place on a made up world, must have overlooked that bit somewhere or just not understood the significance of Gryphonne IV.

The real significance of Gryphonne IV is that the Tyranids ate it. If that's where IA14 is set then we already know that the Tau lose the war, because we already know how the Imperium finally loses the planet and it isn't against the Tau. So that really makes the anti-Tau complaints ridiculous.

Based on all the discussions from the Warhammer Fest thread I thought it was happening post Nid invasion, a dead world with all the cool Mechanicum toys locked underground.

From what I recall, it's happening on a separate planet, the only relevance Gryphonne has is that the Legio Gryphonicus is there in much reduced numbers post nid-nomming

@EnTyme

the necron transition from 6th ed, where the lore was grim as all hell, to 7th, lost the army's appeal for me
what I put before WAS a simplification; I'm not fully versed in the lore, but I'm conversant enough to know the main differences. I'd view it the same as if Abaddon the Despoiler appeared from the Eye of Terror, dragging the bound forms of the chaos gods as his warrior-slaves. Not uncool, but a total slap in the face to all the previous lore, including any Black Library work on the matter
I know it's GW's IP, as such they can do what they like with the background, but you'd think they'd keep to some degree of consistency

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I try to keep an open mind about individual space marine players, though. ^^;

Despite saying they're all entitled donkey-caves who would like to attack you and have fascist politics. Real open minded.

He said there are more jerks in them than other armies, he didn't say all of them are and said that he still doesn't judge new players when he meets them. That's very open minded.

Ok, maybe I was a bit hasty after reading the post about how they dislike practically every person who uses a specific plastic model to play a table top war game.

Apologies Jewelfox, I just dislike the generalisations.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I try to keep an open mind about individual space marine players, though. ^^;

Despite saying they're all entitled donkey-caves who would like to attack you and have fascist politics. Real open minded.

He said there are more jerks in them than other armies, he didn't say all of them are and said that he still doesn't judge new players when he meets them. That's very open minded.

Ok, maybe I was a bit hasty after reading the post about how they dislike practically every person who uses a specific plastic model to play a table top war game.

Apologies Jewelfox, I just dislike the generalisations.

I explicitly was not generalizing; space marine players are very diverse, because it's the gateway army for a lot of people. I was saying I'd seen a portion of their player base be as entitled as you would expect, from a golden child who is given favoured treatment.

It just feels like GW explicitly favours SM, and centres the game around them while allowing you to play other factions if you really want to, in order to give space marines something to ally with or shoot at. That's why I dislike the faction, or at least, I think they're overrated and not at all as elite and intimidating as they're made out to be.

Also, I'm a she. >_>b

 Jewelfox wrote:

Spoiler:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

I try to keep an open mind about individual space marine players, though. ^^;

Despite saying they're all entitled donkey-caves who would like to attack you and have fascist politics. Real open minded.

He said there are more jerks in them than other armies, he didn't say all of them are and said that he still doesn't judge new players when he meets them. That's very open minded.

Ok, maybe I was a bit hasty after reading the post about how they dislike practically every person who uses a specific plastic model to play a table top war game.

Apologies Jewelfox, I just dislike the generalisations.

I explicitly was not generalizing; space marine players are very diverse, because it's the gateway army for a lot of people. I was saying I'd seen a portion of their player base be as entitled as you would expect, from a golden child who is given favoured treatment.

It just feels like GW explicitly favours SM, and centres the game around them while allowing you to play other factions if you really want to, in order to give space marines something to ally with or shoot at. That's why I dislike the faction, or at least, I think they're overrated and not at all as elite and intimidating as they're made out to be.

I know exactly how you feel Jewelfox... The majority of the local Marine players I've put up with are exactly the same; over entitled, spoiled little brats, who love to claim everyone but them is cheesey/game breaking in some way or other.

It's even more aggravating as a Chaos player, since not only do you get to hear about how Hellchickens/Oblits/Plaguemarines/Sorcerers are broken 'uber filth, but then also get to watch as the golden child routinely gets every single special rule & unique unit that's been removed from your army, because GW considered it too complicated & over powering when Chaos had those things.
But now that Loyalists have it, it's just fine and balanced, because... "reasons".

While it's true that GW does heavily favour Loyalists over everyone else, because they are THE money maker, I also am of the opinion that a goodly number (not all, but what seems like a higher proportion compared to other factions), of Marine players need to grow a little maturity and realise that they have it the best, and stop pooping on everyone else.
Sure, Eldar, Tau, Necrons are also really strong. But I've found that it's far easier to have discussions about dialing back the power of lists with players from those factions, than it is to get a Loyalist player to agree to not use a Gladius against the simply incapable CSM codex, or else to dial back the Superfriends nonsense against the fluffy Tzeentch or Khorne army, etc...

 Jewelfox wrote:
Also, I'm a she. >_>b

*high fives*
Me too!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:
Also, I'm a she. >_>b

*high fives*
Me too!

Heh. ^^

I wonder if part of the reason for the entitlement mentality is that space marines, of whatever codex, share a lot of gameplay mechanics in common. I mean, Ravenwing's different from a Gladius is different from Thunderwolf death stars, and Blood Angels are overpriced and shortchanged much like Chaos marines. But there's a lot of shared terminology and technology, from standard MEQ and TEQ statlines to armouries which have lots of weapons in common.

What I'm trying to get at is, if you approach the game from the mindset of "the Imperium is just one of many playable factions," then negotiating a fun game is more likely to seem natural, since you're well aware that your "xenos" or chaos list plays very differently from others. But if you see it as "Space Marines are the default and everything else is an interloper," you might assume that everyone knows what your stuff's like because of course they do, so obviously they've prepared for it. But if they're playing something "weird" and different, it's because they're just choosing to make life difficult for you.

You know, sort of like stereotypical European and Canadian versus "ugly American" mindsets. <_<

However you feel about world politics, I really think there's something to this. I tried to start a thread earlier about "how can I make it more fun for people to play against my Tau?" and it got crashed by an obnoxious troll, who basically told me to burn all my models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Um, I'd just like to add that all of my in-person experiences playing against Space Marine players have been very pleasant. ^^; Whether they tabled me or vice-versa.

It just really seems like this is a problem with some Space Marine players, and (perhaps moreso) with the way Games Workshop treats all their Space Marine factions.

If you encounter space marine entitlement syndrome I think it spans from space marines simply being the majority, and everything else being a minority.

Every time I encounter a space marine die hard complaining about xenos, it's always about something the xenos have that the space marines don't.

Necrons = Reanimation Protocols, Formations, Guass
Eldar = Wraith Knights, Jet bikes, abundant psykers
Tyranids = FMCs, cheap troops
Deamons = MCs, Summoning, abundant psykers

Rock thinks paper is totally broken, while Scissors wants Rocks nerfed.

 adamsouza wrote:
If you encounter space marine entitlement syndrome I think it spans from space marines simply being the majority, and everything else being a minority.

Every time I encounter a space marine die hard complaining about xenos, it's always about something the xenos have that the space marines don't.

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at. ^^; Games Workshop splits the rules up into so many bite-sized (and expensive) books, that if you don't go to tournaments or have a diverse local meta you're going to be caught off-guard sooner or later. And seemingly half the factions are space marines -- possibly more than half historically -- plus people just talk about them a lot. So when you get caught off-guard, it's likely to be by a non space marines player.

This is a situation that's practically designed to make space marine players feel like their opponent's list is unfair. And if you think it's unfair, especially if you don't like how those particular models look, it's not a huge leap to the idea that this stuff shouldn't exist, which seems to have been the case with Tau since they were first released. (There isn't as much hate for Eldar because they're a "legit" part of 40k, by virtue of being in it a long time and space elves being an expected part of the "warhammer" theme. People think their codex is unfair, but they aren't calling for Eldar to burn all their models.)

Space Marines, of course, can get all the formations and rulebooks and psychic powers they want, and can expect a new and significant release on the order of every couple of months. Sometimes in the form of a boxed game or campaign book featuring them, or a model that they can ally with. They can also expect to be on the cover of just about everything except another faction's codex.

Being a space marine player sounds like a sweet deal, especially when our models cost the same amount.

Just going to jump in here..... as an outside looking in type perspective, SM, CSM, Daemons and imperial stuff get all the fluff and spotlight. Even if chaos factions ( and space elf factions) are just the heel for how awesome space marines are they stil get a decent amount of attention. I have read warhammer stuff for years and I have yet to see any books on tau, necrons, or tyranids.... I wanted to start a tau army forever because I believe that thiers is a story that has massive potential and they have an awesome aesthetic in thier models. Do GW authors just not want ti explore these other factions? Is it deliberate? Why not write a campaign where the point of view isn't imperial and SM/Imperial stuff are antagonists? I went with skitarii because I'm a engineer and I like thier stuff but are they going to get the same treatment? It seems like they arw just a supplement to other armies (sapce marines for drop pods ). I would just like something other than space marine books and campaigns. There are too many good stories going untold and as cool as they can be space marines would be dull as crap without the other factions to provide some variety

 Jewelfox wrote:


However you feel about world politics, I really think there's something to this. I tried to start a thread earlier about "how can I make it more fun for people to play against my Tau?" and it got crashed by an obnoxious troll, who basically told me to burn all my models.

I read that thread and must have missed that part. Can you post a link to the post?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

As to the topic at hand. We are all the worst faction. Each and every one of the factions in 40k is responsible for some BS action that pissed someone else off. Somewhere out there is somebody ruining the hobby with your faction.

The worst faction in warhammer 40k is the GW rules development team. They are actively devoted to ruining the game for everyone.

After that is the Tau. Easily the Tau.

Experiment 626 wrote:


It's even more aggravating as a Chaos player, since not only do you get to hear about how Hellchickens/Oblits/Plaguemarines/Sorcerers are broken 'uber filth,

I read this and had to check Plague Marines vs SM Bikers, Iron Hands bikers are 15 points cheaper for a 5 man double plasma squad. -1 to FnP and lose Poisoned CCWS and Blight Grenades, but gain 12" moves, TL bolters, ATSKNF.

All that is beside the point though.

I dislike playing against crons unless, it's just not that fun to play against an army where the base line is a horde that is between a Terminator and a Marine in durability, and can hurt anything they point their guns towards.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I read that thread and must have missed that part. Can you post a link to the post?

Funnily enough, no. We cannot quote locked threads. and we have the unfortunate ability to edit our posts. unless the MODs have access to archived changes, the original posts are gone. But you can take my word for it, Traditio did make several posts with that as the subject.

Traditio wrote:
The worst faction in warhammer 40k is the GW rules development team. They are actively devoted to ruining the game for everyone.

After that is the Tau. Easily the Tau.

Pretty sure you've already made your opinion more than apparent by now. In fact you went on about it for two pages in this very thread. We really don't need you beating the horse any more, because it's fething dead.

Lord_Fabricator_Bullgrim wrote:
Just going to jump in here..... as an outside looking in type perspective, SM, CSM, Daemons and imperial stuff get all the fluff and spotlight. Even if chaos factions ( and space elf factions) are just the heel for how awesome space marines are they stil get a decent amount of attention. I have read warhammer stuff for years and I have yet to see any books on tau, necrons, or tyranids.... I wanted to start a tau army forever because I believe that thiers is a story that has massive potential and they have an awesome aesthetic in thier models. Do GW authors just not want ti explore these other factions? Is it deliberate? Why not write a campaign where the point of view isn't imperial and SM/Imperial stuff are antagonists? I went with skitarii because I'm a engineer and I like thier stuff but are they going to get the same treatment? It seems like they arw just a supplement to other armies (sapce marines for drop pods ). I would just like something other than space marine books and campaigns. There are too many good stories going untold and as cool as they can be space marines would be dull as crap without the other factions to provide some variety

What you want is exactly what the recent Kauyon/Mont'ka campaign books were...

 Sidstyler wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The worst faction in warhammer 40k is the GW rules development team. They are actively devoted to ruining the game for everyone.

After that is the Tau. Easily the Tau.

Pretty sure you've already made your opinion more than apparent by now. In fact you went on about it for two pages in this very thread. We really don't need you beating the horse any more, because it's fething dead.

That was this thread?

My bad! I completely forgot I already posted in it.

Traditio wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The worst faction in warhammer 40k is the GW rules development team. They are actively devoted to ruining the game for everyone.

After that is the Tau. Easily the Tau.

Pretty sure you've already made your opinion more than apparent by now. In fact you went on about it for two pages in this very thread. We really don't need you beating the horse any more, because it's fething dead.

That was this thread?

My bad! I completely forgot I already posted in it.

Gotta be hard to keep track when your response to a thread is the same no matter what the stated subject of the thread is.

I dont think theres any one best or worst faction, however we have some aspects we can pick out.

Space Wolves are a faction I detest. They had so much cool potential...but have so much awful, absolutely terrible writing and fluff thats not just poor reading but fundamentally incoherent and contradictory. They also tend to be a very gimmicky army which doesnt help either.

Eldar are another one, eternally overpowered and people constantly justifying everything with why blils down to "well because Elves should just be better!" I've literally had an Eldae player get mad at me not because he lost...but because he lost to Guard and "that just shouldnt happen" (back in 4E). Despite owning over 5k pts of Eldar, I havent been able to bring myself to play them much because of how broken they are.

Necrons are another one similar to these, with awful new fluff (change is fine...just not what they ended up doing) and army lists with gobs of overpowered gimmicks that make games completely one sided non interactive snorefests.



In terms of "worst" for power level, it would probably have to be CSM's and Scions.

That said, for worst models, Carachans win hands down. How on earth GW sells enough to justify their existence when nobody buys them is beyond me.

 Vaktathi wrote:

That said, for worst models, Carachans win hands down. How on earth GW sells enough to justify their existence when nobody buys them is beyond me.

To be fair, those Catachan models are from 1999! They're right up there with the Khorne Berserkers in terms of fugliest models that need immediate overhauling...
On the other hand, the heavy weapon team & command squad aren't nearly as horriawful as the basic kit - still 90's cheesy for sure, being that they're based on Rambo/Delta Force nostalgia.

They still however can't topple the old metal 3.5ed Possessed Marines!