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I started playing/collecting GK this edition so never got the pleasure of playing with it. Was it to hard to balance or just reasons? And do you think it will return?

It was sort of absurdly undercosted on some platforms in the old 5E GK book, but pretty much all the 2014 (late 6E and early 7E) books were toned way down and had gobs of characters, units, upgrades, options and wargear removed and in an effort to tone things down I guess, and then they pulled a complete 180 starting with the 2015 Necron book and went wild adding new and crazy (and unbalanced) stuff.

TL;DR we dont know exactly why its gone, but it is and most books of that era got similar treatment.

Grimlineman wrote:
I started playing/collecting GK this edition so never got the pleasure of playing with it. Was it to hard to balance or just reasons? And do you think it will return?

One would think that balancing it wasn't realy that big of a deal. I mean, it was a pretty expensive upgrade when placed on small squads, and although it made the LR Crusader and Storm Raven a bit beastly, it's not like either of those platforms are cheap and spammable.

No, much like True Grit, it just sorta ceased to exist because reasons.

Remember anything that made GK good is gone. It is codex Dreadknight now.

 Quickjager wrote:
Remember anything that made GK good is gone. It is codex Dreadknight now.

No, it's codex Stern+Draigo+Dreadknight. The Centstar's gotta get their 2++ Invuln EW meat-shields SOMEWHERE

my personal; theory is that they got rid of it because there was no way to model it

BrianDavion wrote:
my personal; theory is that they got rid of it because there was no way to model it

Pretty neat theory. But unless I'm wrong strenguard special ammo is not modeled and they kept it.

Special ammo is not an option, it is built-in.

BrianDavion wrote:
my personal; theory is that they got rid of it because there was no way to model it

You're probably right. I bought a ton of the Chapterhouse psybolt upgrades...

Grimlineman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
my personal; theory is that they got rid of it because there was no way to model it

Pretty neat theory. But unless I'm wrong strenguard special ammo is not modeled and they kept it.

sure but ALL sternguard have it. and sternguard DO have their own special models.


whereas with GKs there's no real way to demonstrate "ok this terminator squad has it, but this doesn't"

I could see it being, in theory, confusing.

course GKs could use more model variaty over all. I think if I was in charge of the Grey Knights model range Paladins would get their own box and be given some things to diffrentiate them easier, capes, differant weapon loadouts etc. maybe give them the option to take storm shields.

BrianDavion wrote:
my personal; theory is that they got rid of it because there was no way to model it

I can think of several ways. Paint the ammo different, add religious iconography to the weapon to designate it as a psy-bolt weapon, etc.
Of course, that means you can't swap it out, but if you were going to glue an attachment or use green-stuff then it doesn't really matter anyway.

What is the Imperial equivalent of the cross anyway? Its not the aquila; that predates the Imperial Creed, and is supposed to represent the Imperial Truth, which is something completely different.

Codex Inquisition still has Psybolt options for Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, as well as their Rhinos/Chimeras/Razorbacks/Land Raiders.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
my personal; theory is that they got rid of it because there was no way to model it

I can think of several ways. Paint the ammo different, add religious iconography to the weapon to designate it as a psy-bolt weapon, etc.
Of course, that means you can't swap it out, but if you were going to glue an attachment or use green-stuff then it doesn't really matter anyway.

What is the Imperial equivalent of the cross anyway? Its not the aquila; that predates the Imperial Creed, and is supposed to represent the Imperial Truth, which is something completely different.

I am pretty sure it is the aquila. Euphrati Keeler uses one like a crucifix to banish a daemon in the initial HH books.

Really? Huh, then I guess it got repurposed by the church to serve as both a symbol of faith and a symbol of the state.

No idea how to paint an aquila on bullets though

It's really simple. You paint a little x and do a horizontal serif on the end of the two top arms.

There are three symbols used by the Ecclesiarchy.

The first is the Aquila, which is the sign of the Emperor;


The second is the Starburst ][, which is the sign of the Ecclesiarchy;


If you see anyone but a Battle Sister wearing one, it's probably a Rosarius as well.

The third is the Fleur de Lys, which is the sigil of the Adepta Sororitas.


Because people swear by the Emperor rather than the Church, they use the Aquila as a warding symbol and to indicate piety.

To be fair, the +1S mechanic made pretty much 0 sense anyways... It's supposed to be super effective vs. primarily Daemons & Psykers, yet it was deadliest to gakking vehicles when used on autocannons, because "reasons".

 GoonBandito wrote:
Codex Inquisition still has Psybolt options for Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, as well as their Rhinos/Chimeras/Razorbacks/Land Raiders.

Have a little Inq force with my ad mech. Used to have GKs but nothing like a razorback with psybolt ammo for 10 points cheaper than a razorback without it.

In Codex: Daemonhunters it ignored invulnerable saves.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? Huh, then I guess it got repurposed by the church to serve as both a symbol of faith and a symbol of the state.

in the case of the Imperium they're the same thing.

seperation of church and state isn't a thing in the IoM, they're heavily intertwined.

BrianDavion wrote:


seperation of church and state isn't a thing in the IoM, they're heavily intertwined.

Actually, that's not true. The Adeptus Terra are the State, they fund the police, maintain the roads, make the laws and so on and so forth. The Adeptus Ministorum are the Church, they fund the priests, maintain the shrines, make the laws, and so on and so forth.

There was a time when the Church's laws and tithes over-ride the State's laws and taxes. That caused the Age of Apostasy. Then there was a brief time when the Church and State one organisation. That was the Reign of Blood.

After that, the Church were made to relinquish the vast majority of their political power, along with their entire army and their ability to wage wars freely. The only armed force they're now allowed to maintain is their internal affairs division, the Sisters of Battle. Their tithe demands are hard capped, as well.

They can still dictate law, but only in direct relation to religious behaviour.

Plus:
Is the Palatine Aquila, the Emperors eagle while:

Is the Imperial Aquila, the symbol of the Imperium, the union between Mars and Terra.

Anyway, as has been said, psybolt ammo was bent.
Multiple rifleman dreads each putting out 4 strength 8 twinlinked shots is not the way GK were supposed to be fighting chaos.

Plus there's no indication who has it.
You either make it a special rule for ALL the GK and for the love of the Emperor, price accordingly, or nobody has it and it remains a fluff thing- like force weapons being more effective v daemons.

 =Angel= wrote:

Anyway, as has been said, psybolt ammo was bent.
Multiple rifleman dreads each putting out 4 strength 8 twinlinked shots is not the way GK were supposed to be fighting chaos.

Yes, because there is no reason why GKs would need high strength firepower. Let's rip the lascannons off our Land Raiders, too! If it absolutely makes you upset that Rifleman dreads exist, than a simple removal of autocannons from the list of psybolt-capable weaponry would have solved that problem. However, daemon engines and Greater Demons are a thing, so I'm not sure why the GKs should be hard-capped to S7.

Plus there's no indication who has it.
You either make it a special rule for ALL the GK and for the love of the Emperor, price accordingly, or nobody has it and it remains a fluff thing- like force weapons being more effective v daemons.

There is a laundry list of things in this game that are optional unit upgrades that either have "no indication" of their effect or WYSIWYG is almost universally never applied. Again, it's not a good argument for why they were removed from the GK codex but oddly remained in another.

Because the game didn't need more weapons similar to scatterlasers.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:

Anyway, as has been said, psybolt ammo was bent.
Multiple rifleman dreads each putting out 4 strength 8 twinlinked shots is not the way GK were supposed to be fighting chaos.

Yes, because there is no reason why GKs would need high strength firepower. Let's rip the lascannons off our Land Raiders, too! If it absolutely makes you upset that Rifleman dreads exist, than a simple removal of autocannons from the list of psybolt-capable weaponry would have solved that problem. However, daemon engines and Greater Demons are a thing, so I'm not sure why the GKs should be hard-capped to S7.

Plus there's no indication who has it.
You either make it a special rule for ALL the GK and for the love of the Emperor, price accordingly, or nobody has it and it remains a fluff thing- like force weapons being more effective v daemons.

There is a laundry list of things in this game that are optional unit upgrades that either have "no indication" of their effect or WYSIWYG is almost universally never applied. Again, it's not a good argument for why they were removed from the GK codex but oddly remained in another.

You seem angry that they removed the psybolts.
The whole point of greykights was heroes fighting huge daemons, with psychic blades. They undermined this with dreadknights and relentless cheap dreads putting out more firepower than a dev squad.

Again, if this wasn't so spammable or if it was decently costed it wouldn't have been such an issue.
I fought a GK 'army' that consisted of lots of proxies, quad barreled autocannon machines and two stormravens flying around, keeping the infantry safe.
24 strength 8 shots from across the board- from units out of melta and psychic retaliation range.

This from an army that deliberately didn't have transports available to it in Daemon hunters to emphasise the 'foot knight' aspect of the GK.

At any rate, I wouldn't have a problem with psybolts if even in the army had then and was paying for them appropriately. There are virtually no upgrades that are not represented on the model these days- even grenades come stock on most models.
I abhor invisible upgrades like I abhor chapter tactics that don't relate to the paint job of the marines in question.

Sure didn't take long for people to remember 3x riflemen dreads with str 8 shooting was a thing.

 =Angel= wrote:

You seem angry that they removed the psybolts.

[Qute]The whole point of greykights was heroes fighting huge daemons, with psychic blades. They undermined this with dreadknights and relentless cheap dreads putting out more firepower than a dev squad.

You seem angry about riflemen dreads. See how attributing emotions does nothing for discussion?

Again, if this wasn't so spammable or if it was decently costed it wouldn't have been such an issue.
I fought a GK 'army' that consisted of lots of proxies, quad barreled autocannon machines and two stormravens flying around, keeping the infantry safe.
24 strength 8 shots from across the board- from units out of melta and psychic retaliation range.

Well, don't fight douchey people with proxy armies. That would be my first advice. Also, you're memory might be a lttle fuzzy, but each rifleman dread put out 4 shots, not 8.

This from an army that deliberately didn't have transports available to it in Daemon hunters to emphasise the 'foot knight' aspect of the GK.

This game stopped emphasizing theme around the time allies for everyone became a thing. Also, GK don't need transports now that everyone can teleport on turn 1. These are mechanical problems with the game, not with a +1S shooting upgrade.

At any rate, I wouldn't have a problem with psybolts if even in the army had then and was paying for them appropriately. There are virtually no upgrades that are not represented on the model these days- even grenades come stock on most models.
I abhor invisible upgrades like I abhor chapter tactics that don't relate to the paint job of the marines in question.

Just off the top of my head, Veterans of the Long War is an optional, invisible upgrade for CSMs. IG veterans can be upgraded with camo cloaks, carapace armor, and melta bombs. Guess how many people I've seen represent those upgrades on their units? Their are tons of wargear upgrades like artificer armor, master-crafted weapons, and relics that are never properly modeled.

X

It was because the Psybolt ammunition was one of the major complaints about GKs, since it effectively made each storm bolter into an assault heavy bolter with 1 less shot, while every autocannon became a rapid-firing krak missile against vehicles. The reason GW actually did this was because the GKs were one of the first wave of 7th edition codexes, which severely dialed back their power (power creep wouldn't happen again until the Necrons). That and the way the GKs are lacking in a lot of departments gave me the feeling that GW wanted to turn them into the Imperium's version of the Harlequins (i.e: an army made purely for allies).

That and like others pointed out, Psybolt ammunition didn't fit the theme of the GKs in terms of rules since what is ostensibly an anti-daemon weapon is good against everything BUT daemons (well they're good, but not much better than a conventional weapon of similar stats).

Grimlineman wrote:
I started playing/collecting GK this edition so never got the pleasure of playing with it. Was it to hard to balance or just reasons? And do you think it will return?

It was overpowered. Hopefully it will not return.

Psybolt ammo SHOULD have been standard issue for all Grey knights and just lowered demon invun saves by one.