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Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider





I know he wasn't eating people's brains or anything but not all Psychopaths are exactly obvious. In fact they blend into a group better then most normal people do. Given his upraising and several of his actions I've started to consider this theory. In fact re-reading the Heresy books in which he appears with this notion in mind, really makes his actions and reasoning quite obvious.

I'd list out my points but I'd like to hear what others think before I lay out things to sway others opinions for or against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/15 16:33:08


 
   
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Didn't he spend his first 10 years living alone in a forest?

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In a peaceful society all the primarchs would qualify for that label. Clearly some more then others...
   
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider





pm713 wrote:
Didn't he spend his first 10 years living alone in a forest?


Yup he was found as a little boy in the worst area of the monster infested forest of caliban. Completely unafraid .

Edit: He was a Primarch tho, so that could of influenced his emotional state at the time but doesn't also rule it out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/15 16:36:41


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




To quote Sherlock:
"I'm not a psychopath, Anderson, I'm a high-functioning sociopath. Do your research."

The Lion doesn't blend into a group. He has next to no interpersonal skills or ability to read people - that's why he gets blindsided multiple times by traitors (including his own sworn and genetic brothers), and why he subsequently nearly gets several thousand dark angels killed because he has no idea whether he can trust Gulliman or not.

As long as he can treat war as pieces on a chess board, he's probably the single finest tactician amongst the primarchs, and that's saying something.

But he's "only" an mere exceptional general, because he's not so good at dealing with the pieces on his side having their own opinions and perceptions that don't mesh with his - most of the time where things go wrong for him it's either because his allies don't do what he wants them to, or turn out not to be allies at all. He's the ideal commander for a war of conquest, and one of the worst for a civil war.


He behaves more like an autistic individual than a psychopath, I think. He works off his own perceptions and views and bugger anyone elses. Part of this leads to the whole loyal/traitor viewpoint; he can't cope with shades of grey. This also leads to the interesting fact that right at the moment, the Dark Angels are the most traitorous looking loyalists. Not because they are in any way disloyal, but because - much like the Wolf King - Johnson is firmly convinced that because he knows he's loyal, the rules therefore do not apply to him.

His legion is currently:

(a) navigating by use of a definitely xenotech, possibly daemon-tech device he had installed in his flagship

(b) violating his own sworn oath to his father to disband the librarius

(c) deploying weapons banned by Imperial decree kept by the dreadwing.

(d) Supporting a secessionist government of 'Imperium Secundus'.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/16 07:01:40


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locarno24 wrote:


His legion is currently:

(a) navigating by use of a definitely xenotech, possibly daemon-tech device he had installed in his flagship

(b) violating his own sworn oath to his father to disband the librarius

(c) deploying weapons banned by Imperial decree kept by the dreadwing.

(d) Supporting a secessionist government of 'Imperium Secundus'.




of thsoe 4 things all but c could be applied to Sanguinis and Gulliman as well.

the librarius simply is too important for fighting deamons not to use. all of the 500 worlds are forced to rely on a xenotech device to naviage. and Imperium secondous isn't technicly a secessionist government, so much as a "if the worst is true" fallback.



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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider





Nobody seems to care in the least that he killed his own loyal chaplain
Taken from the book "The Primarchs- The Lion"
‘My authority is absolute,’ the Lion said, clenching his fists, his lips drawn back to reveal gleaming teeth.
‘The Edict of Nikaea was issued by the Emperor, my liege,’ said Nemiel. ‘There is no higher authority'
'Enough!’ The Lion’s roar was...
...The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet. Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at his handiwork. It passed in a second.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




He is a Primarch not a human so its a little hazy to apply human psychoanalysis to him but I would suggest he along with all of the other Primarchs really show signs of significant psychological problems.

I thinik they are all quite emotionally underdeveloped really but that might jsut be bad writing
   
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






More Sociopath than psychopath.

I've made the comparison before on here, but if you think of him as Stannis in Game of Thrones (unfortunately not in the looks department, stupid long fairy hair) he fits perfectly. He doesn't tolerate the questioning of his authority, he is shrewd, and he is absolute in regards to his arrogance.

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Regular Dakkanaut




I've established the theory that he could have some (minor) form of asperger autism on another forum where I've been decried as a fascist for suggesting that an asperger could be sanguinary, calculating and scheming as the Lion is. My thoughts were based on that description of him where it is said that he can't make a difference between an honourable man and a caveman, and the fact he can do things like calculating hyperstallar jumps by head (but I don't know, other Primarchs might be able to do that too). He is also described as the Emperor's raitonality, his analytical talent, without the burden of the conscience.
   
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 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Nobody seems to care in the least that he killed his own loyal chaplain
Taken from the book "The Primarchs- The Lion"
‘My authority is absolute,’ the Lion said, clenching his fists, his lips drawn back to reveal gleaming teeth.
‘The Edict of Nikaea was issued by the Emperor, my liege,’ said Nemiel. ‘There is no higher authority'
'Enough!’ The Lion’s roar was...
...The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet. Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at his handiwork. It passed in a second.


He also had decent enough reasoning. Maybe not for killing, but enough to make Nemiel stand down. The Lion, knowing that Psykers were essential to dealing with the Chaos threat, probably made the call based on the fact he assumed they'd be overrun/destroyed by the Chaos threat if they imprisoned/executed all Psykers. I think he made a decent call. Killing is a bit extreme, but if Nemiel was going to go tattle on him to Big E, well, so be it. He is the leader of his Legion.

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 jreilly89 wrote:
 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Nobody seems to care in the least that he killed his own loyal chaplain
Taken from the book "The Primarchs- The Lion"
‘My authority is absolute,’ the Lion said, clenching his fists, his lips drawn back to reveal gleaming teeth.
‘The Edict of Nikaea was issued by the Emperor, my liege,’ said Nemiel. ‘There is no higher authority'
'Enough!’ The Lion’s roar was...
...The Lion moved and a split-second later a cracked skull-faced helm was spinning through the dull-glowing lights of the strategium, cutting a bloody arc through the air. Nemiel’s headless corpse clattered to the floor as the Lion held up his hand, pieces of ceramite embedded in the fingertips of his gore-spattered gauntlet. Corswain looked at the face of his primarch, horrified by what had happened. For a moment he saw a vision of satisfaction, the Lion’s eyes gleaming as he stared at his handiwork. It passed in a second.


He also had decent enough reasoning. Maybe not for killing, but enough to make Nemiel stand down. The Lion, knowing that Psykers were essential to dealing with the Chaos threat, probably made the call based on the fact he assumed they'd be overrun/destroyed by the Chaos threat if they imprisoned/executed all Psykers. I think he made a decent call. Killing is a bit extreme, but if Nemiel was going to go tattle on him to Big E, well, so be it. He is the leader of his Legion.


I can completely understand the reasoning behind it.
However there is no reasoning with the definition of "Absolute".
Yeah they probably would of all died... maybe they wouldn't of.

I basically take the arguement as "The emperor decreed that ALL the primarchs must die" "well with reasoning some of the primarchs are more efficient at running the legions then regular space marines so let's not listen to the emperor and let them live"
These are things that seem Right and correct in the short term but the butterfly effect from all these reasonings against the Emperor's will is exactly why the 40k universe is what it is today.
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





The Rock

I think the Lion has far more experience with Chaos than any other Primarch in 30K, and works on the logic of the ends justify the means.
He spent pretty much all of his life on Caliban fighting and killing Chaos beasties.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 07:09:11


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.....And hiding the evidence of this after the fact from the Imperium at large.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 07:29:08


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At this point, he is just unthrustworthy.
Especially since the scene in The First Heretic. And the Heart of the Pharos.

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locarno24 wrote:
To quote Sherlock:
"I'm not a psychopath, Anderson, I'm a high-functioning sociopath. Do your research."

The Lion doesn't blend into a group. He has next to no interpersonal skills or ability to read people - that's why he gets blindsided multiple times by traitors (including his own sworn and genetic brothers), and why he subsequently nearly gets several thousand dark angels killed because he has no idea whether he can trust Gulliman or not.

As long as he can treat war as pieces on a chess board, he's probably the single finest tactician amongst the primarchs, and that's saying something.


This idea that the Lion is a sociopath is a meme, it is contradicted multiple times in the books. He is supposed to be unable to read emotions and intents, and yet he literally sniffed out the lies when Luther barely hesitated to report the presence of a bomb.

You can blame the distrust of other Primarch to the simple fact that the Lion simply didn't like a single one of them, except for Vulcan, who he was pretty bro with. It's also a consequence of the 1st Legion's function : they were given first dibs on a lot of developing tech, and would retain access to those that were deemed too dangerous to pass on to others.


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I always found old Lion'El to be one of the weaker and least likeable Primarchs. I think Luther and co turned to chaos because the alternative was a lot less palatable.
   
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In all fairness all of the Primarch's and the Emperor seem to have some sort of deep psychological issues.
   
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Ace From Outer Space wrote:
I always found old Lion'El to be one of the weaker and least likeable Primarchs. I think Luther and co turned to chaos because the alternative was a lot less palatable.


What was that?
   
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All primargs are murderous abhuman abominations who would be shot on sight or at least locked away in any sane civilisation. But this is the IoM, and there is only war so who cares ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 04:50:20


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 Alpharius wrote:
Ace From Outer Space wrote:
I always found old Lion'El to be one of the weaker and least likeable Primarchs. I think Luther and co turned to chaos because the alternative was a lot less palatable.


What was that?


Having Lion'El back.
   
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Ute nation

 oldzoggy wrote:
All primargs are murderous abhuman abominations who would be shot on sight or at least locked away in any sane civilisation. But this is the IoM, and there is only war so who cares ?


The primarchs are Post Humans, they use that term for space marines, but they are actually transhuman, as they started human and became something else. The primarchs were never human, never had human physical frailties, and never had the needs that make humans social creatures. Human nature is as much about our flaws as it is our motivations and aspirations, and that was a large portion of humanity the primarchs were missing. Even as douchey as the emperor was, he had at least lived thousands of human lives from birth to death. The primarchs were Wolves who were taught they were sheep, and some primarchs were better at pretending than others.

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 Grimgold wrote:


The primarchs are Post Humans, they use that term for space marines, but they are actually transhuman, as they started human and became something else


Trans would mean they are still in the process of change. The state of transitioning is not permanent. Initiates would be transhuman, full marines are posthuman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/26 07:21:17


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Russ shoots a 1k son who had degenerated to a chaos spawn while Magnus has him in his embrace and is about to give a merciful end to. All the primarchs have ways which don't fit our ethics, because they were made for war.

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Snord





Barovia

If Johnson was a Psychopath or Sociopath he would not have pleaded with Guilleman to not kill his sons after Curze launched thousands of them in drop pods in Unremembered Empire.

Also the chaplain beheading was only after (I think it was) two warnings - you don't argue with a Primarch.

He may not have the level of feeling for his sons as Guilleman, Sanguinius or Vulkan but he does care for them.

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 MarsNZ wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:


The primarchs are Post Humans, they use that term for space marines, but they are actually transhuman, as they started human and became something else

Trans would mean they are still in the process of change. The state of transitioning is not permanent. Initiates would be transhuman, full marines are posthuman.

It's just semantics. You could argue that space marine are transhumans because they are enhanced humans but still have vestiges of their humanity. Or you could argue that they are posthumans because they have moved beyond the human condition.

Primarchs are definitely posthuman though. You could argue that the space marine transformation isn't fully complete, as the final form of this evolution would be what the Primarchs are.


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Yeah, Astartes are transhumans as they are halfway from human to primarch.



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 Reavsie wrote:
Also the chaplain beheading was only after (I think it was) two warnings - you don't argue with a Primarch.


Nemiel called out the Lion as disobeying the Emperor's implicit orders (Edict of Nikaea) and got his head lopped off.
   
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 ChazSexington wrote:
 Reavsie wrote:
Also the chaplain beheading was only after (I think it was) two warnings - you don't argue with a Primarch.


Nemiel called out the Lion as disobeying the Emperor's implicit orders (Edict of Nikaea) and got his head lopped off.


In war-time, that would be the exact result of insubordination. You question your commanding officer constantly, you could end up getting shot. As this was a Primarch, who are pretty much a law unto their own, it should be expected.

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