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So from a few conversations at Warhammer Fest over the weekend its pretty clear now that the new Blood Bowl is still set in the Old World (this may have been obvious to many but confirmed) and there is no plan to have any kind of cross over to AOS.

Now I will be the first to say I am not a massive fan of the new setting, I think it has a long way to go before it has enough substance to it to get my buy in but anyway. It does seem odd to me to be releasing a game set in the Old World when pretty much every effort has been made to obliterate it and convieniently forget the origins of many of the things that now remain.

I am not saying I would of prefered Blood Bowl to be in the new setting and to be honest I think I would struggle to get my head around it but then it made sense in the old world so maybe it would have worked!

What are peoples thoughts?

Blood Bowl was never set in the Old World. It was in it's own fantasy setting. As I understand it, the same is true of new Blood Bowl. So it has nothing to do with the Old World.

It's got everything to do with them wanting to release the game without many/any changes to the fluff or races, and just focus on clarifying some rules and producing new minis/accessories.

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Blood Bowl was never set in the Old World. It was in it's own fantasy setting.

What gave you that idea?

Galadrin wrote:

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Blood Bowl was never set in the Old World. It was in it's own fantasy setting.

What gave you that idea?

The actual fluff and story of the Blood Bowl world?

Or are you going to say that Nagash kicked back on weekends and watched games on his Cabalvision tv while eating Big Moot sandwiches?

infinite_array wrote:

Galadrin wrote:

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Blood Bowl was never set in the Old World. It was in it's own fantasy setting.

What gave you that idea?

The actual fluff and story of the Blood Bowl world?

Or are you going to say that Nagash kicked back on weekends and watched games on his Cabalvision tv while eating Big Moot sandwiches?

I am reading my Blood Bowl rulebook right now (1994/1998) and there is a whole chapter explaining that Blood Bowl is definitely set in the Old World, followed by a large, two-page map prominently titled "The Old World" with the locations of ever major stadium picked out on the map. So yes, Blood Bowl is (not "was") set in the Old World, as "is" Warhammer Fantasy Battle, Mordheim, Man O War and Warhammer Quest.

Blood bowl was set in an alternative old world, so while yes the places and races are the same, what ever happens to the fb old world wont affect the bloodbowl old world and visa versa.

It's a vaguely similar but alternate continuity. That's the only explanation that makes any sense unless you're going to seriously argue that every nation in WFB decided to pause their genocidal wars in order to play football.

Indeed, it's an alternate version of the old world where blood sports are used instead of war. It has nothing to do with old world canon and is just it's own little thing that uses references from that setting.

Seriously, it has the fifth chaos god Nuffle(NFL reference) who brought about this peace because everyone believed in him so now they play sports.

methebest wrote:Blood bowl was set in an alternative old world, so while yes the places and races are the same, what ever happens to the fb old world wont affect the bloodbowl old world and visa versa.

Where did this idea come from??

TheWaspinator wrote:It's a vaguely similar but alternate continuity. That's the only explanation that makes any sense unless you're going to seriously argue that every nation in WFB decided to pause their genocidal wars in order to play football.

But that is literally what the Blood Bowl rulebook says! I quote, "Considering the vast number of races that hate each other's guts' it is hardly suprrising that war between the different races is a frequent state of affairs in the Old World... Ancient feuds and bitter hatreds are common and run very deep. None the less, when two Blood Bowl teams arrive at a city to play a match a special truce is declared which lasts until after the match is over. This means that, no matter what the race of the team or its supporters, and barring all-out warfare, nothing will interfere with the playing of the all important game of Blood Bowl!" (Page 39).

Baron Klatz wrote:Indeed, it's an alternate version of the old world where blood sports are used instead of war. It has nothing to do with old world canon and is just it's own little thing that uses references from that setting.

It never says there is no war... It would hardly be the Warhammer World without war, don't you think? Seriously, where does this idea that it is an "alternate dimension" come from? The authors of the game are painfully clear that this is not true. I feel like I am arguing that the Earth is round here!

Then why isn't blood bowl mentioned in the whfb fluff?

methebest wrote:
Then why isn't blood bowl mentioned in the whfb fluff?

What? What kind of argument is that? The Blood Bowl rulebook itself clearly states that it is set in the Old World and makes specific reference to Warhammer Fantasy Battle's setting and background. This is getting obtuse (and possibly perverse)... It seems there is a collective delusion about what is perfectly clear in dried ink on paper.

Let me ask a better question: why would it apparently bother everyone so much if Blood Bowl were set in the Warhammer world?

Galadrin wrote:

methebest wrote:
Then why isn't blood bowl mentioned in the whfb fluff?

What? What kind of argument is that? The Blood Bowl rulebook itself clearly states that it is set in the Old World and makes specific reference to Warhammer Fantasy Battle's setting and background. This is getting obtuse (and possibly perverse)... It seems there is a collective delusion about what is perfectly clear in dried ink on paper.

Let me ask a better question: why would it apparently bother everyone so much if Blood Bowl were set in the Warhammer world?

Blood Bowl plays out in a wholly different timeline. It might be the Old World, but it's not the same Old World as WFB.

Litterally from the wiki, straight from the creator his mouth himself Jervis.:
"With the advent of the 3rd edition, Blood Bowl moved closer to the traditional Warhammer Fantasy Battle world by changing the miniatures to look more similar to their Warhammer Fantasy Battle counterparts. Jervis Johnson, designer of the game, has admitted this was not the best direction for the game, and has since stated that the Blood Bowl world is similar to, but definitely not the same as, the Warhammer world" by Jervis Johnson on future of Blood Bowl at GenCon 17 August 2005.

So what you are saying is that Blood Bowl was absolutely set in the Old World, and over a decade after publishing the last boxed edition, Jervis said in passing at a GenCon panel discussion that he felt this was the wrong decision and that it should be otherwise? That's fine, although I'd be interested in seeing the full transcript of that discussion, but it hardly surprises me. Games Workshop changed enormously between 1992 and 2005, and part of that change was that gaming became "serious business" and not as fun and whimsical as 1990's Warhammer. It doesn't surprise me in the least that they would back away from the old setting decisions and feel of their games.

That said, it also does little to change the fact that Blood Bowl 3rd Edition is very much set in the Old World. We haven't had an edition of the game that specifically overrules this. I have no doubt that the new Blood Bowl will overrule this, not only because GW has gone into overdrive with killing the fun and whimsy of Warhammer, but because GW has literally killed the Old World setting. Yet, for me, Blood Bowl 3rd Edition will always be canon, as it is the last Warhammer world to exist and will always be the best (which for me means "fun, silly, enjoyable"). Put simply, AOS ended the Warhammer world, and whatever they do with AOS Blood Bowl makes zero difference to the Blood Bowl that was set in the Warhammer world. (To be honest, I personally don't even consider AOS to be canon, so the Old World still "is" for me, but that is neither here nor there.) The reboot is just that, a reboot of the game in a new (and much worse) setting. The canon Old World first developed in the late 80's and 90's encompases Warhammer Quest, Man O War, Mordheim and Blood Bowl all together in the same setting and it is glorious!

Galadrin wrote:

methebest wrote:
Then why isn't blood bowl mentioned in the whfb fluff?

What? What kind of argument is that? The Blood Bowl rulebook itself clearly states that it is set in the Old World and makes specific reference to Warhammer Fantasy Battle's setting and background. This is getting obtuse (and possibly perverse)... It seems there is a collective delusion about what is perfectly clear in dried ink on paper.

Let me ask a better question: why would it apparently bother everyone so much if Blood Bowl were set in the Warhammer world?

Think about it, considering that wars are put on hold for bloodbowl matchs and that fact they wouldn't be rare, why isn't it mention how the war of the beard was put on hold? as there definitely would have been a blood bowl match while it was going on, and what of all the other wars?
Also why isn't Mordheims stadium mentioned in the Mordheim fluff? The city is big enough that it would of had some sort of team and the stadium would have been a good place to set a scenario.

@Galadrin, since they've shown some new Reikland Reavers models I'm pretty sure it won't be an AoS version.

Galadrin wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Galadrin wrote:

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Blood Bowl was never set in the Old World. It was in it's own fantasy setting.

What gave you that idea?

The actual fluff and story of the Blood Bowl world?

Or are you going to say that Nagash kicked back on weekends and watched games on his Cabalvision tv while eating Big Moot sandwiches?

I am reading my Blood Bowl rulebook right now (1994/1998) and there is a whole chapter explaining that Blood Bowl is definitely set in the Old World, followed by a large, two-page map prominently titled "The Old World" with the locations of ever major stadium picked out on the map. So yes, Blood Bowl is (not "was") set in the Old World, as "is" Warhammer Fantasy Battle, Mordheim, Man O War and Warhammer Quest.

No, it was set in an alternate version of the old world, one played a bit more for laughs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Bowl

They used the same --rough -- map and so on but there's a lot of differences.

The somewhat casual acceptance of chaos for example.

It's also why none of the teams, events etc etc in the BB game are ever mentioned in any of the WFB books/setting.

Closest they game was a reference to "snotling ball" which was a somewhat self explanatory game played in parts of the empire.

 reds8n wrote:
No, it was set in an alternate version of the old world, one played a bit more for laughs.

Nowhere does it say or even imply this in the rulebook. In fact it says the exact opposite. And the Earth really is round!

That said, I am completely cool with you all playing Blood Bowl in an alternate dimension or whatever. It's your game after all, play it however you want! I definitely prefer the version described in the box set—I think it's so cool that the Warhammer world can be this flexible and fun (and that's what I enjoy at the end of the day). On another note, has anyone seen the Warhammer Quest adventure that involves a rivalry between the Barbarian and an old Blood Bowl opponent? It's awesome!

Edit: Removed mean spirited comment.

What's your statement for Nuffle, the chaos god of sports who brought about world peace so everyone can play sports, then?

(Anyone else thinking about doing a poll for this?)

Judging from this thread, I don't think popular opinion would be in my favour (despite what the actual text says). Anyway, you do have Jervis himself admitting that the game was originally part of the Warhammer world in 3rd Edition, and that he thought that was a bad idea (I happen to disagree, but I understand that GW had changed a lot from the 90's).

Nuffle is a lost god, which means that he could be a Chaos god (their are more than four of them, and there is no doubt that he is sufficiently chaotic). Nuffle could also be a made up deity worshipped by a strange cult from the lost land of Amorica through a strange ritual with an inflated pig's bladder and foot-stomping the opponent (hence, Nuffle Amorical Football).

The fluff leaves it open for interpretation, but I prefer the idea that Nuffle is a minor Chaos deity. Chaos can take any form, and Blood Bowl seems to fit the bill for me!

Galadrin, please read the original WFB background (2nd Edition) from '84, then everything makes sense.

Honestly I do not like the confrontational kind of conversation here, so I'm not sure I want to participate more if it isn't changing to a more relaxed state :(

The problem is mostly caused by how GW has handled its gaming worlds after the '91 management buyout and GW's mid-90 approach to how to sell their products.

Another similiar controversial topic is how they pushed Talisman into the Warhammer setting with art, miniatures and other elements reinvented to fit the then top-notch 'red period Warhammer glory'.

TLDR Warhammer Fantasy itself has been from day 1 (of its fluff, which came with 2nd Edition) set as a multi-dimensional gaming universe, with our reality being one of several. Exactly like realities are handled in Physics.

The Old World was concepted as a parallel dimension itself, Italy-> Tilea, Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation -> The Empire, Bretagne->Bretonnia, Poland/Hungary/Czechoslovakia-> Kislev with Praha and so on. Thats why all the countries are similiar but not the same as ours. I am not kiding this was the original Warhammer Fantasy fluff. Authors are Richard Haliwell, Rick Priestley, Bryan Ansell

And Blood Bowl did indeed take place in another parallel dimension. 3rd edition Blood Bowl (1994) is not the original BB. Thats mid 90s, and the game was already 8 years old. But even then as already mentioned this was the case. The Nuffle reference should make it clear.

True, Blood Bowl was different in the 80's. I am merely referring to 3rd Edition, the last boxed game put out. Talisman wasn't the first case of a game being shoe-horned into the Warhammer setting—Mighty Empires before that had been described as part of the Warhammer world, even though the random map never fits anywhere in the Warhammer world map. Heck, even before that, 1980's Talisman had Space Marines in it (no joke).

The 1980's were definitely a setting bricolage. No body will deny that. In fact, Warhammer Fantasy Battle 2nd Edition talks about Allah, the Islamic concept of God (go figure!). The 1990's saw Games Workshop being bought up and the many games brought together into a consistent universe for branding purposes. That doesn't make it any less real (and indeed, I rather enjoyed that aspect as a kid, just as I continue to do today).

Bringing it back to the new Blood Bowl, that's a very interesting observation Baron Klatz. So with the Old World "no more," is the new Blood Bowl completely independent from AOS? I wouldn't mind that at all, although I doubt I'll enjoy the rules as much as 1990's Blood Bowl (GW tends to simplify its rules while making it's models much, much more complicated). The Reikland Reavers are a classic team, though, so that bodes well. I also hear that GW will be selling old metal Star Players from the 80's at Warhammer World soon on a limited basis—it's great that they are giving a nod to the past editions!

From Black Library

Blood Bowl

Welcome to a delightfully twisted fantasy world where humans, elves, goblins and ogres work out their aggressions not on the battlefield, but on the football field. When talented scout Slick Fullbelly spots Dunk bringing down a Chimera with a spear from a hundred paces, he's sure that his search is over. Slick works for the Bad Bay Hackers, and they need a new thrower. Dunk is about to be plunged headfirst into the insane world of Blood Bowl, the fastest, meanest sport in this dark and brutal world. Dunk puts down his sword and steps off the battlefield... and onto the football field.

This classic Black Library novel was the first ever set in the lunatic alternate fantasy of the Blood Bowl world: a world where the brutal wars of the Old World have been replaced with an arguably even more brutal game of football. If you're after serious fantasy, this is not it. But if you fancy a no holds bared, action packed, rough and tumble roller-coaster of a sporting hero story meets monster mash - then game on!

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/blood-bowl-ebook.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, BB will be its owning gaming world. A parody of both WFB and American Football/Rugby. It's own IP if you will.

Completely independent from AoS, yes.

Talking about old games, I loved M.U.D.S. on PC back in the days, and Speedball II on the Amiga which were using a similiar crazy sports theme

Ok my original question is answered, Albino Squirrel got the idea from a Jervis comment and the back copy to a Black Library book. So GW changed their mind at some point and backed away from Blood Bowl in the Warhammer universe. I hadn't heard of that, but it's not surprising.

If GW is branching into new (newish oldish) IP, then that is a significant step. I'd love to see Games Workshop return to form as a workshop that puts out many games. After the 90's, GW really shied away from big box games that weren't their bread and butter (WFB, 40k and LotR), choosing to provide limited support to Specialist Games in terms of models. They've really been ramping up in the last couple years which is great.

Any ideas on whether they will still be using a square grid for a field? GuildBall doesn't use squares at all (you just measure), which I thought was brilliant.

Galadrin wrote:
Any ideas on whether they will still be using a square grid for a field? GuildBall doesn't use squares at all (you just measure), which I thought was brilliant.

The previews from Warhammerfest/others all show basically an updated version of the old starter - orc and human teams, block dice, templates (that look waaaaaay less useful than the old, clear, plastic ones I have) and a field.



Biggest problem I have is an apparent scale increase. Some manufacturers are already asking if they should continue to make models in 28mm, or if they should start making bigger miniatures to match GW's new stuff.

I still think you're reading that Jervis comment waaaay wrong. It's saying that the Blood Bowl aesthetics and world got more similar to the main Warhammer world during BB 3rd edition and that that was a mistake, not that they were ever meant to be the exact same world.

Blood Bowl is a parody spinoff. It's about as much in continuity with WFB as Hostess Fruit Pie Spiderman is with normal Marvel comics. It's pretty obvious when you consider that BB claims that all war was replaced with football while WFB continued to have giant apocalyptic wars.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
I still think you're reading that Jervis comment waaaay wrong. It's saying that the Blood Bowl aesthetics and world got more similar to the main Warhammer world during BB 3rd edition and that that was a mistake, not that they were ever meant to be the exact same world.

Specifically, the miniatures went from looking like sports players to looking like warriors without weapons. You can see how Specialist Games began to reverse that when they resculpted the Human, Orc and Elf teams late in the day. That's the look that Cyanide and Fantasy Flight Games followed with their licenced games.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
I still think you're reading that Jervis comment waaaay wrong. It's saying that the Blood Bowl aesthetics and world got more similar to the main Warhammer world during BB 3rd edition and that that was a mistake, not that they were ever meant to be the exact same world.

Blood Bowl is a parody spinoff. It's about as much in continuity with WFB as Hostess Fruit Pie Spiderman is with normal Marvel comics. It's pretty obvious when you consider that BB claims that all war was replaced with football while WFB continued to have giant apocalyptic wars.

Yes, Blood Bowl is a parody of American football. That is very clear in the NAF name (Nuffle Amorical Footbal) and Nuffle (NFL). Yes, the Blood Bowl 3rd Edition rulebook specifically states that Blood Bowl is set in the Warhammer Old World. I can see why these two things seem contradictory: if the Old World is supposed to be a fantasy setting, how could they "break the fourth wall" and make humerous references to the real world? Doesn't that make the Old World a joke? Well, yes it does. A good part of the Old World is meant to be a partly tongue-in-cheek reference to a very British and very humorous interpretation of the real world and its history. In the 90's, GW had a goofy sense of humour baked right into the setting. Warhammer was NOT a grimdark, serious setting, but a funny and vibrant setting, where Karl Franz was an uplifting statesman (compare to KF in 3rd Edition) and Teensy-Weensy's (ahem, "Tichi-Huichi's") Raiders were the scourge of the battlefield. It was the era before the square-jawed, "gorilla" style Orcs (rather, it was a time when Orcs were sculpted by Kev Adams and each one had a big, stupid grin). But notice, you were not bothered by the famous Estalian discoverer of the New World, "Marco Colombo," or the adventures of Lost Losterikson. Why? Are not these clear parodies? To say anything other that they are would be to obviously "miss" the joke.

So you are absolutely correct. I am implying that the Warhammer World was not a "serious" setting. I am also saying that the 3rd Edition Blood Bowl rulebook is 100% crystal clear, dried ink on paper, that 3rd Edition Blood Bowl is set in the Warhammer world. Not a parody of it (since the whole thing is already a parody from the start) and not an "alternate dimension." My point is that Blood Bowl parodies American Football. It does NOT parody the Warhammer universe. Those kind of jokes are riven throughout the setting. They are part of the game, just like Squig Hoppers, the Skaven Doomwheel, Pavane of Slaanesh and the Halfling Hot Pot.

Later on, it seems about 13 years later (2005), GW changed their mind on this. I hadn't heard about this, since it is not mentioned in any Blood Bowl rulebook or supplement, but it is not surprising. GW had been changing for years, ever since about 2000, and the Warhammer setting was becoming "grimdark" (in an attempt to recapture what it had been in the 80's, but with a much more clear and defined form). My argument is only that 3rd Edition was much less serious (and, in my personal opinion, much more fun because of it).

Edit: By the way, Blood Bowl 3rd Edition does NOT claim that "war was replaced by football." Read the chapter on the Old World and the Origins of Blood Bowl again and you can see that it directly refutes such a notion.

Edit 2: By the way, why is Blood Bowl imagined to be so "unrealistic"? Surely the Romans began the practice of importing "exotic" foreign athletes from distant lands to compete in all manner of bloodsports in the colliseum (not just gladiator battles, but wrestling, racing, team-based naval skirmishes and so on). Check out the violent sport of Harpastum, for example. Blood Bowl is much more clearly a reference to Medieval football, however—just check out the description. It was a sport "involving an unlimited number of players on opposing teams, who would clash in a heaving mass of people struggling to drag an inflated pig's bladder by any means possible to markers at each end of a town. By some accounts, in some such events any means could be used to move the ball towards the goal, as long as it did not lead to manslaughter or murder" (Wiki). That means you could maim, beat, stomp and dogpile whoever you wanted to get at victory. That was a real sport. Are you suggesting that if medieval Britain had that, the Old World wouldn't (or would have something much tamer)?

If there ever was a fat nerd discussion, this is it.

 treslibras wrote:
If there ever was a fat nerd discussion, this is it.

Out and proud, baby!