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I like them. My wife and I can play a game of Assassins: Execution force in under an hour and I can get a small 40k hit.

The new assassin models are lovely, too.

niall78 wrote:

These games seem to be glorified miniature box-sets with rules tacked on the side. They aren't competing for new blood but designed to sell miniatures to the already converted.

I kinda agree with this point, in a couple cases.
Assassinorum seems to be the biggest culprit, and the genestealer cult set as well to a certain extent.
This could be argued for Lost Patrol as well, which has a great idea, but the design is severely lacking.

They may not be competing for new blood at the base level you'd find at mass market outlets, but word of mouth is a powerful thing. Their playerbase is already strong. Those are the folks who proselytize to the laymen.

I wouldn't recommend this to anyone who doesn't have their own source of income though. So kids are right out.
As a parent, there is no way in hell id buy their games if I didn't already research them fervently considering the cost of admission.

Be that as it may, I still think this will broaden GW's bottomline by being inclusive of the boardgame market, instead of ignoring that demographoc.

 Toofast wrote:
They're great for 40k players who want to split a box with a friend to beef up their army. As far as actual board games go, they're fairly uninteresting. Plenty of people have already pointed out the flaws. Things like settlers of catan will always be far better board games than what GW is producing. 95% of people who bought calth never played an actual game of it, they just wanted a cheap start to a 30k force. The assassin game doesn't sell at all. I honestly don't see them attracting the interest of many people that weren't already customers of GW.

We played Betrayal and Deathwatch---finished both games' campaigns---at the FLGS and everyone there thought the games were pretty good in themselves.
I know a sample size of half a dozen isn't much but those two games have fairly interesting mechanics to us.

 Talizvar wrote:
So let me get this straight, they change their stores from "Games Workshop" to "Warhammer" and then produce more "games" than they ever have.

... ... .

This is an interesting point, and I think it probably will hold GW back for a while.

In the good old days, GW was a chain of RPG and wargame shops that started to produce and sell some of their own games on various topics. Now they are the Warhammer shop that sells Warhammer games. If the only games they produce are more Warhammer games, it doesn't seem to me that they are likely to expand their market much.

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
They're great for 40k players who want to split a box with a friend to beef up their army. As far as actual board games go, they're fairly uninteresting. Plenty of people have already pointed out the flaws. Things like settlers of catan will always be far better board games than what GW is producing. 95% of people who bought calth never played an actual game of it, they just wanted a cheap start to a 30k force. The assassin game doesn't sell at all. I honestly don't see them attracting the interest of many people that weren't already customers of GW.

We played Betrayal and Deathwatch---finished both games' campaigns---at the FLGS and everyone there thought the games were pretty good in themselves.
I know a sample size of half a dozen isn't much but those two games have fairly interesting mechanics to us.

Speaking personally, I like Space Hulk because I had first edition and knew it was a good game. I don't know anything about the new games, and I'm not highly motivated to find out, for various reasons; he general reputation of GW for writing crappy rules, the 40K/WHFB background, which I am a bit bored with, and finally, the high price of these new games.

The point is that if you already know and like Warhammer's existing rules, fluff, figure style and prices, then you are likely to like their new games -- many of which are revisions of existing or OOP games set in the Warhammer universes.

But why will this attract a new audience?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

But why will this attract a new audience?

I'd be of the opinion that the old board games - especially the mass-market ones like Heroquest and Space Crusade - were one of the main drivers for the massive growth of GW between the late Eighties and mid Nineties. The time GW became the dominant industry player for both fantasy and science-fiction gaming.

Youngsters saw these games in 'normal' shops and were sucked into the universe. The price put them into easy birthday or Christmas present range. White Dwarf - also available everywhere - then helped draw them further into the 'GW hobby'. Players could then build forces up over a year or two with pocket money purchases.

Many people today hope these new board games will achieve the same. I don't believe they will as none of the conditions are the same as they were all those years ago. Mass-market penetration is missing. Price of the board games is off the wall compared to other companies offerings in that market. White Dwarf is effectively gone. And most importantly those interested in expanding from the board games into the main GW lines - AoS and 40K - will find prices that are multiples of similar offerings in the market - jewel like miniatures or not.

Yes and no. I think they were good idea but I think they have better things to be focusing on right now rather than putting out all these little different board games

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Seems like many people just buy the "boardgame" for the miniatures being a bit cheaper for whichever system they currently play and rarely bother with the game that comes in the box alongside those sprues.

IMO that's a pretty silly attitude to take when you've just forked out for all that stuff. I've found Space Hulk, Assassinorum, Deathwatch and BaC to be pretty great games.

I've seen a lot of people talking about buying the models, and almost no-one talking about the game.


Anyway, to the original question; I think the games are boosting their bottom line, but I don't think they are growing anything. They only really appeal to existing GW gamers, and don't really compete well outside of that if anyone is even aware of them.

GW view high quality, grey, multi-part figures as a great thing (because you can assemble and paint them), but most board gamers don't agree, because they don't. To a board gamer, they want pre-assembled pre-coloured figures so they can throw them down and play. But they presumably also shudder at the £95 ($150?) price tag; if you don't care about token quality, you can get like 3 mini's based games for that.

I think an important consideration in this question is that the boardgame with miniatures market is a lot more robust than it was in the time of Heroquest and Battlemasters, and price is a big factor.

When I checked in on Silver Tower due to being a huge Warhammer Quest fan back in the day, I saw a lot of people talking about what a good deal it was for the miniatures, especially the "expansion pack" of 4 AoS heros bundled for it. The thing is, it's only a deal if you're used to GW pricing. In the world of smaller games and historical minis, much less boardgames, $55 for 4 plastic infantry miniatures - even heroes - is atrocious. Outside of The GW Hobby, you're in circles where a box of plastic minis usually falls comfortably in the $1 - $2 a figure range. And most boardgamers tend to want figures they can just push together an play with, painted or not.

I think GW doing boardgames again is a fantastic idea, don't get me wrong. But once again, their actual execution and pricing is insane. The "excellence" of GW miniatures is only there if you like the GW style and aesthetics, and the pricing is ludicrous. With both Overkill and Silver Tower, I had the briefest moment of temptation, then I looked at the actual price vs. number of miniatures included, and price vs. other boardgames. That killed it for me. Especially when I considered that for most of Silver Tower, expansion would require the purchase of GW models at non-bundle prices.

tl;dr: GW doing boardgames is a great idea, except their pricing is ludicrous in the larger boardgame market. They're not going to attract much new blood as long as their cost vs. content is so horrible compared to similar popular games on the market now.

I think they're great but I haven't bought any and I won't buy any of the current ones. If they brought out a game with unique looking GK or Eldar models that I could add to my existing armies then I would - kind of like how BA players have used space hulk.

Things like death watch aren't really what I mean though. If they released a game with eldar guardians all with unique poses and extra bits I'd convert them all into corsairs and use them as felarchs - that's the kind of thing I'm hoping for.

 Psychopomp wrote:

When I checked in on Silver Tower due to being a huge Warhammer Quest fan back in the day, I saw a lot of people talking about what a good deal it was for the miniatures, especially the "expansion pack" of 4 AoS heros bundled for it. The thing is, it's only a deal if you're used to GW pricing. In the world of smaller games and historical minis, much less boardgames, $55 for 4 plastic infantry miniatures - even heroes - is atrocious. Outside of The GW Hobby, you're in circles where a box of plastic minis usually falls comfortably in the $1 - $2 a figure range. And most boardgamers tend to want figures they can just push together an play with, painted or not.

I think miniatures are a bit more expensive in the boardgame area than you are suggesting. Imperial Assault (probably the closest boardgame to WHQ) includes 30ish figures and is $100 retail, with each villain/ally pack costing $10-$20 for a single figure and 5-6 cards. So the heroes, which you have to buy separately, are at least $10 each, and their quality is much worse than what GW provides. Some of FFG's Descent 2 hero and monster collections are so poorly molded that some figures lack faces altogether.

As for the assembly thing, I agree with you there. There is a huge amount of interest in WHQ in the board game community, and the assembly of the figures seems to be the biggest point of contention for them (with the quality of cards being second). But the first step to entering this hobby is the awareness that it isn't as hard as it looks.

With both Overkill and Silver Tower, I had the briefest moment of temptation, then I looked at the actual price vs. number of miniatures included, and price vs. other boardgames. That killed it for me.

Deathwatch Overkill has 50 miniatures for $165 ($3.30 per mini).
Silver Tower has 50 miniatures for $150 ($3 per mini).
Imperial Assault has 36 miniatures for $100 ($2.78 per mini) - does not include the cost of ally and villain packs.
Arcadia Quest has 37 miniatures for $100 ($2.70 per mini).
Descent 2nd Edition has 36 miniatures for $80 ($2.22 per mini) - does not include the cost of lieutenant packs.
Super Dungeon Explore Forgotten King has 58 miniatures for $100 ($1.72 per mini)

Deathwatch Overkill is by far the most expensive of the bunch, but even then, $3.30 per mini isn't a huge increase from the average of $2.62. Silver Tower, at least, doesn't look that much more expensive than comparable board games from FFG or Cool Mini or Not. I think the appearance of outrageous expense has more to do with GW's name being on the box than an objective difference in cost.

I should also point out that you can play a complete game of Age of Sigmar with the models included in Silver Tower, so you are actually getting two games that use the same miniatures (not sure if the warscrolls are available outside of White Dwarf).

Especially when I considered that for most of Silver Tower, expansion would require the purchase of GW models at non-bundle prices.

I suspect that if WHQ is successful, there will be more bundles made available. GW has, in general, been providing more and more value bundles recently.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Deathwatch Overkill has 50 miniatures for $165 ($3.30 per mini).
Silver Tower has 50 miniatures for $150 ($3 per mini).
Imperial Assault has 36 miniatures for $100 ($2.78 per mini) - does not include the cost of ally and villain packs.
Arcadia Quest has 37 miniatures for $100 ($2.70 per mini).
Descent 2nd Edition has 36 miniatures for $80 ($2.22 per mini) - does not include the cost of lieutenant packs.
Super Dungeon Explore Forgotten King has 58 miniatures for $100 ($1.72 per mini)

Silver Tower - as you have shown - is completely out of whack with the rest of the board game industry. In it's own dungeon exploring niche it is two and a half times the price of both the D&D board games and Mantic's The Dwarf Kings Quest. It is also substantially dearer than Descent and Super Dungeon Explore. The price per miniature is also misleading as it doesn't take into consideration the rest of the contents of the boxes or the utility of the games themselves.

niall78 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

Deathwatch Overkill has 50 miniatures for $165 ($3.30 per mini).
Silver Tower has 50 miniatures for $150 ($3 per mini).
Imperial Assault has 36 miniatures for $100 ($2.78 per mini) - does not include the cost of ally and villain packs.
Arcadia Quest has 37 miniatures for $100 ($2.70 per mini).
Descent 2nd Edition has 36 miniatures for $80 ($2.22 per mini) - does not include the cost of lieutenant packs.
Super Dungeon Explore Forgotten King has 58 miniatures for $100 ($1.72 per mini)

Silver Tower - as you have shown - is completely out of whack with the rest of the board game industry. In it's own dungeon exploring niche it is two and a half times the price of both the D&D board games and Mantic's The Dwarf Kings Quest. It is also substantially dearer than Descent and Super Dungeon Explore.

Not sure what D&D board games you are talking about, but the dungeon crawl ones (Temple of Elemental Evil, Wrath of Ashardalon, etc) repurposed miniatures from the D&D miniature line, so they were considerably cheaper to produce for Wizards. They are also kind of crappy games. Descent is 5 years old and would certainly be closer to $100 if released today (Runebound 3rd edition is $60 and contains considerably fewer miniatures, tokens, and cards), and SDE Forgotten King was built on the back of an extremely successful kickstarter where start up and production costs were subsidized (Arcadia Quest as well). They just aren't comparable because these companies couldn't produce The Silver Tower cheaper. That means the Silver Tower is roughly at the industry standard - without employing the labor force of a third world country, no less - especially in the UK, where Silver Tower is relatively cheaper and all these other games are relatively more expensive.

I can't speak for Mantic's game, but if it is like anything else they do, they'll abandon it after six months then announce a 2nd edition kickstarter six months after that, so you get what you pay for there.

Silver Tower - at least the starter box and mighty heroes expansion - is not out of line with the costs associated with Imperial Assault, especially if you include the associated ally and villain packs that have miniatures represented by tokens in the box.

At the end of the day, price is only part of the equation, and its importance will differ from person to person. I think that if Silver Tower is really good, then the price won't matter to many people, as a lot of these dungeon crawl games range from terrible to mediocre and anything halfway decent with ongoing support will find plenty of fans. I think the fact that you have to assemble the miniatures will be far more of an obstacle to board gamers than price.

The price per miniature is also misleading as it doesn't take into consideration the rest of the contents of the boxes or the utility of the games themselves.

The majority of these games come with several heavy cardboard sections for tokens and rooms, some dice, and two or three decks of cards (in different sizes). They would make a negligible difference in cost because they all feature them in relatively similar quantities.

I think GW's foray back into board games is a good manuever, but I don't think its benefitting them in bringing new blood to them - yet.

I think for most people who look at board games AS board games, GW's offering are too expensive. The wargaming crowd obviously sees them as a relatively "cheap" method of starting/building an army - but I don't think most other folks see the value in these expensive games.

I believe it would behoove GW to get their games back under $100; I imagine their best selling point to actually draw in new blood would be the $60-$80 range, if they could manage it.

 Stormonu wrote:
I think GW's foray back into board games is a good manuever, but I don't think its benefitting them in bringing new blood to them - yet.

I think for most people who look at board games AS board games, GW's offering are too expensive. The wargaming crowd obviously sees them as a relatively "cheap" method of starting/building an army - but I don't think most other folks see the value in these expensive games.

I believe it would behoove GW to get their games back under $100; I imagine their best selling point to actually draw in new blood would be the $60-$80 range, if they could manage it.

Most board games of this ilk tend to be around $100 (Undercity $95, Level 7 $90, Imp Assault $100, SDE:FK $100, Arcadia Quest $100). At $150, it is a bit more expensive, but not offensively so, considering many of them have a copious number of expensive add ons (if you bought everything for Descent 2nd Edition that's currently out, you'd be spending at least $600). Kingdom Death: Monster, at $400, is offensively expensive.

I think largely, it's the history of the games themselves which affect crossover appeal. Calth, Deathwatch, Assassinorum have basically nothing of interest to people who don't play or read 40k. Space Hulk, Hero Quest, and Blood Bowl have some crossover appeal due to being relative classics in the board game community. So initial interest starts there. People are going to look at the updates and decide if they are worthwhile updates while retaining their classic qualities first and foremost. They'll probably look for continued support next, as it has been decades since the last Hero Quest and it'd suck if the game never expanded to the greatness that the original system provided. The price and assembling the figures will be a secondary concern for most.

Star Wars Imperial Assault also has like over 20 missions in the core set, between both modes. It's got way more actual game than Silver Tower appears to have.

People don't just look at a game a calculate they will pay 3c less per figure. There are several factors people look at.

Star Wars is Star Wars, and gets instant worldwide recognition, for example.

If they weren't so stupidly overpriced they'd be excellent gateway dru... I mean great entry level games.

Personally I think being 50% more expensive than comparable rival games is not "offensively" expensive, but certainly will give potential buyers pause for thought when they look at two games side by side.

Then the other factors will come into play.

Space Hulk, Hero Quest and Blood Bowl were relatively widely successful because they were good games and were not strongly tied into the WH universe. They made sense to potential players without any knowledge of the WH fluff; Space Hulk because Aliens, Hero Quest because generic fantasy adventures, and Blood Bowl because American Football.

I don't think being an introduction to Teh HHHobby is a selling point at all. You don't buy a boxed game because you think it's going to be surprisingly less difficult to put together than you anticipate, and will show you how easy it could be to go on and buy and assemble $1,000 of Warhammer stuff and learn a vastly more expensive and complicated set of rules

The game can't be a gateway into Teh HHHobby unless it is successful in its own right. A certain percentage of people who enjoy the boxed game might go on to play full WH.

-

The games in non-GW shops are the ones that might attract new customers, for sure.

I think GW need to radically address the 40K rules if they want to attract back some of the people who have left in the past. That is, some of those people might buy a boxed game, but they are less likely to transition into the core system when they see what a sprawl it has become.

-

I would say for the OT the answer is a no.

Their new boardgame line is good for them, it might expand their bottom-line and help the company diversify witch it really needs (along with new fresh IP, but that is even more radical for them), but it does zero to expand the gaming community, every other boardgame company does more in that area than GW, by producing games that are both cheaper, but also appealing to consumers that are outside the hobby.

Now going to GW boardgames, they are too expensive, they are priced as a cheap bundle if the gamers want the minis for their main games with a "free" boardgame tossed in, but that is quite more expensive than the expected average boardgames cost, moreover the models are unassembled and do not fit back in the box, both things boardgamers expect.

GW has a long way till their products expand the gaming community so far they are mostly bundles to sell models intended on their main games, but it is a new start, who knows they might pull it off and start making proper boardgames, they might even manage to invest a new IP in them.

I like them. They're either a bargain bundle pretty much, like renegade, or they've been pretty fun to play like silver tower. Only problem I really saw with quest after playing it today was there's not a character card for Draigo (though you could use him instead of the knight questor).

GW hasn't made a good wargame in 10+ years.... so why not? Maybe something more simple, simple rules, simple figures.... something GW is able to handle.... nothing too hard on their brains.

Kilkrazy wrote:Personally I think being 50% more expensive than comparable rival games is not "offensively" expensive, but certainly will give potential buyers pause for thought when they look at two games side by side.

As with all things GW, the inability to advertise GW products online means that finding discounts for GW games is much harder and non-obvious. So when Silver Tower cost $150, a lot of people will pay $150. With Imperial Assault, before FFG's online policy change, you could have it for $60. So even though ST is only 50% more expensive than IA, it seems more like 250%. I hate this about GW products.

Space Hulk, Hero Quest and Blood Bowl were relatively widely successful because they were good games and were not strongly tied into the WH universe. They made sense to potential players without any knowledge of the WH fluff; Space Hulk because Aliens, Hero Quest because generic fantasy adventures, and Blood Bowl because American Football.

The Tzeentch focus of Silver Tower may be a rather huge hurdle for non-Warhammer gamers, precisely because it isn't generic fantasy dwarves and goblins. Hell, I've been playing AoS for a year and I know almost nothing about Tzeentch because this is the first time AoS has put any emphasis on that Chaos god.

I don't think being an introduction to Teh HHHobby is a selling point at all. You don't buy a boxed game because you think it's going to be surprisingly less difficult to put together than you anticipate, and will show you how easy it could be to go on and buy and assemble $1,000 of Warhammer stuff and learn a vastly more expensive and complicated set of rules

The HHHobby is rather intimidating, both in expense and difficulty. Someone might not buy into it directly, like buying the AoS or Dark Vengeance starter sets, but they may buy into a self contained board game that eases them in. After they get bored of the game, they may decide to use the figures for painting practice (as I did with a 40k starter set I never played). And with Silver Tower, you can expand it with further AoS models, perhaps leading to players having a full army without even knowing it - oh the rules are free? I'll try it out. So I don't think GW board games directly work as a gateway to the hobby, but are more a Trojan horse to invest players into the GW worlds and model ecosystem, letting them absorb parts of the hobby indirectly.

Bottle wrote:I don't think any of the board games yet have been intended to be a gateway into the hobby. Lost Patrol and Battle for Vedros seem to really fit that bill. This is further reinforced by them not being available inside GW stores but elsewhere instead.

Lost Patrol doesn't look particularly good, but Vedros is the very definition of a gateway game. It's cheaper than anything else on the market, sold in non-GW stores, has snap-fit models, and even includes paints. It's sold more like a toy series than a miniature game. But I don't think it will work without a 40k reboot, since the rules alone for 40k are stupidly expensive, convoluted, and spread out over multiple codices.

What about WHQ? Again it is not screaming gateway game because of the price and only being sold in GW stores, but it is aimed at perhaps WHFB veterans who haven't yet moved into AoS as well as bringing in new people by virtue that if someone has a box they can invite 3 friends to play it with them.

I think Silver Tower is a test, selling primarily to existing fans to see how successful the system can be. If GW really wanted to go for mass appeal, they'd change Tzeentch for Orcs and use a more generic setting (and drop the price). It could be an Age of Sigmar trojan horse for existing mini players (I'm almost certain it is), but it isn't a trojan horse for creating new miniature gamers. But, if they do release a mass market WHQ later, they can say it is compatible with Silver Tower and vice versa, creating even more value for the game system in the eyes of new players.

Sorry, GW board games are too expensive.

I can play any one of these similar games:

Imperial Assault $99.95, 2-5 players
Dungeon Siege 79.95, 2-5 players
Mice and Mystics 74.95, 1-4 players
Super Dungeon Explorer, $79.99, 2 or more players

They all support more players and are cheaper (plus I can get a better discount online). So unless you really want to play a AoS themed board game or want some AoS miniatures I'll take the cheaper game. Plus they have expansions and a better rules system. I can buy one or two expansions for those games above and be at the same price point.

Board game players are going to laugh at the price and buy one of the other games. The people who will buy this are GW players who don't know about other board games or GW players who have drank the kool aide.

We wrote:
Sorry, GW board games are too expensive.

I can play any one of these similar games:

Imperial Assault $99.95, 2-5 players
Dungeon Siege 79.95, 2-5 players
Mice and Mystics 74.95, 1-4 players
Super Dungeon Explorer, $79.99, 2 or more players

They all support more players and are cheaper (plus I can get a better discount online). So unless you really want to play a AoS themed board game or want some AoS miniatures I'll take the cheaper game. Plus they have expansions and a better rules system. I can buy one or two expansions for those games above and be at the same price point.

First, I disagree with the better rules systems. While I like Imperial Assault, Mice and Mystics and SDE aren't particularly great games (I know because my kids make me play them). I haven't played Silver Tower yet, but everything I've read makes it look better than those.

Second, games like Arcadia Quest, Super Dungeon Explore, Zombicide - all the games that get Kickstarters have players pledging WAY more up front. Super Dungeon Explore: Legends has the majority of pledges (2400 of them) at $200, with over 1200 pledges at $300. Arcadia Quest: Inferno had 7,800 pledges at $100 - and that's before you factor in $200 worth of optional buys. Yeah, the kickstarter versions have more miniatures, but so does Silver Tower.

Third, I have a friend who paid $300 for Kingdom Death: Monster and considers it money well spent. He doesn't have kids. It must be nice.

Whether Silver Tower is worth the price TO YOU, that's entirely your business. However, I do not believe that it is outrageously expensive for the board game market and I can quote dozens of examples of kickstarters, collector's editions, and other games that have sold for $150 or more just fine - often for just the promise of a game to come one day (Dark Souls is 5 pounds more than Silver Tower, and the people who paid for it won't have it for another year).

Board game players are going to laugh at the price and buy one of the other games. The people who will buy this are GW players who don't know about other board games or GW players who have drank the kool aide.

I think the people who will buy this will fall into several groups:

1) GW gamers/painters who want cheap models for 40k and AoS
2) Board Gamers who like the dungeon crawl format and are still looking for the perfect one.
3) Older board gamers who remember Hero Quest and are hoping for a quality update.
4) Curious gamers who think the game looks interesting enough to check out.
5) Speculators who plan to buy it and sit on it for a few years so they can sell it for twice the price on eBay.
6) Collectors who just buy everything because they are filling the empty void left in their life by sorrow and pain.
7) People who buy into the hype generated by the previous six groups.

Personally, I belong to groups 1, 2, and 4, so I'm in.

Kickstarters and Collector's editions are not the general board games market.

Silver Tower isn't a Kickstarter or Collector's edition.

There are plenty of these multiplayer RPG style dungeon quest games on the market already, including Super Dungeon Explore, Descent, Dungeon Quest, Runebound and so on, with various styles and amounts of maps, cards, counters and figures.

Silver Tower is just another example, whose main distinguishing feature for the average person is that it won't be on sale in normal outlets and costs 50% more.

Silver Tower of course is only one of GW's new board games, and probably will mostly appeal to AoS players.

Nobody here in our group is interested in GW boardgames. Too boring.

 Sqorgar wrote:


Second, games like Arcadia Quest, Super Dungeon Explore, Zombicide - all the games that get Kickstarters have players pledging WAY more up front. Super Dungeon Explore: Legends has the majority of pledges (2400 of them) at $200, with over 1200 pledges at $300. Arcadia Quest: Inferno had 7,800 pledges at $100 - and that's before you factor in $200 worth of optional buys. Yeah, the kickstarter versions have more miniatures, but so does Silver Tower.

The base cost of the game is what I listed. The Average kickstarter pledge being $200 is because the user pledged more to get extra content. That $200 came with a lot more than the base game and a lot more than the Silver Tower base game. Not comparable at all.