Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hobojebus wrote:

puree wrote:

No no I didn't say it was more popular don't straw man

mm..

you tell me what's more popular?

You explicitly asked him to comment on what's more popular.

He didn't say you said it was more popular. He asked how you'd explain some other data if KOW was more popular. In other words it appears he directly addressed your explicit question and that you are then creating the strawman.

No to strawman you must mistate the other persons stance and then argue against that instead of what they actually said.

What I did was invite further discussion after citing my case and its supporting evidence.

What this is is misdirection to avoid the actual point which is a claim was made that aos isn't failing that's yet to be substantiated, I've given my argument as to why it is but the evidence it's doing well has not materialised.

So what evidence circumstantial as it is can the pro AoS crowd provide that it's not an abysmal failure?

I am just going to ask why does it matter to you if AOS is a failure or not? Do you play it? I suspect not considering your posts if you dislike a system find one you enjoy instead of using energy arguing about a game/miniatures you seem to have no interest in. What do you stand to gain from it?

The mistake people are making here is the idea of inherent exclusivity. People are assuming the players who play one system do not play the other, which is patently false. AoS and KoW are, to speak of their designs, not similar in the least. Both games have free rules, so it's difficult to properly ascertain how many people are playing what. Tournaments aren't a good metric, and really rulebook sales are poor as well ( retail stores buy the books too, and there is no guarantee they will sell those books.)
AoS wants to be a skirmish game, while KoW wants to be a massed army battle game. They are going to attract different people and players, so drawing comparisons serves little good.
Really, rather than wasting your time here with the cliched 'internet dick fight' you should discuss Age of Sigmar's future, or go do some modeling. Would be a much better use of your time.

As for AoS, I said it in the beginning - This game will take time to grow. And from what I can see at our local level, it has and will continue to do so. The biggest gaming store in town has trouble running WFB tournaments anymore. It wasn't a WFB place to begin with, but Aos is finding a way and growing. There is a lot of excitement for the new system, new factions and new models.
I haven't seen a single game of Kings of War locally. While this isn't indicitive of the market as a whole, it's the only hardcore data I have to go off of.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Please, stop with the doom-saying speculation. No bugger has any idea how well it's doing (save for GW Head Office) and as was said earlier, comparing a game that has been around for 25-30 years to a new one doesn't really provide much to run the numbers against.

Well GW themselves admitted in warhammer fest AOS started off badly...

Straight from GW's mouth. What more you need to believe AOS isn't doing great in sales?

tneva82: Source?

tneva82 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Please, stop with the doom-saying speculation. No bugger has any idea how well it's doing (save for GW Head Office) and as was said earlier, comparing a game that has been around for 25-30 years to a new one doesn't really provide much to run the numbers against.

Well GW themselves admitted in warhammer fest AOS started off badly...

Straight from GW's mouth. What more you need to believe AOS isn't doing great in sales?

Yes they admitted it had a bad launch at warhammer fest anyone with eyes could see that the fact they launched with khorne and stormcast. What's important in my mind is that GW ALSO said that they are going to make their focus to be developing games and great miniatures and interacting with the community. Something which they are doing in spades and has had a good effect. The old GW with Kirby would have never done that that's why I still give them my money.

Of course months after that we hear according to rumors AOS is now "healthy" in terms of sales. Plus my GW manager and area manager confirmed it's doing good it's ancetodal evidence but hey I am sure you are not going to believe me.

Now I ask why does it matter if AOS is doing good or bad? If you are not interested in AOS why should you care if it's doing good or bad? If you care about the sales so much why not apply for GW and make them money? Why waste time thinking about stuff only investors and head office should truly care about?

As long as they are making enough money to support the hobby 40k and AOS that's enough for me. Why do people who enjoy AOS need to prove it's doing well? Just enjoy your hobby leave those people who don't like it to grind their axe somewhere else it's not worth the effort.

Why do people who enjoy AOS need to prove it's doing well?

Its appealing to the masses. That cultural phenomenon where if you aren't playing what's #1 then you need to be.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I really don't know where this "large spike in Kings of War" comes from. I have yet to ever see anybody playing/buying the stuff in the wild.

Its just one data point, but we have a long running regional tournament in town that draws players from 3-4 surrounding states every year. For years it was 40K/WFB but the last one was 40K/KoW. Our FLGS is doing a fair business selling KoW starter armies, but no one is playing AoS (or Oldhammer or 9th Age) in our shop. I'm finally starting to warm to AoS but I am waiting to see if the new General's book sparks any interest in the game before committing.

Visiting family for a few weeks and drove 45 mins to the GW store and guess what...damned it wasn't AoS dominating the scene there and they were having fun. Just like everyone on this board should be doing--having fun. Spend your hobby time happy and express that happy and if you haven't found it, go find the happy.

You. Will. Never. Ever. See GW specific numbers or what is actually going on. So. Please. Give. It.. A. fething. Rest.
You're starting to sound like warseer...

 shinros wrote:

Now I ask why does it matter if AOS is doing good or bad? If you are not interested in AOS why should you care if it's doing good or bad?

People will get some joy if they can see GW suffers and wish them to go bankrupt.

Davor wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Now I ask why does it matter if AOS is doing good or bad? If you are not interested in AOS why should you care if it's doing good or bad?

People will get some joy if they can see GW suffers and wish them to go bankrupt.

I have notice that a lot lately.

Davor wrote:

 shinros wrote:

Now I ask why does it matter if AOS is doing good or bad? If you are not interested in AOS why should you care if it's doing good or bad?

People will get some joy if they can see GW suffers and wish them to go bankrupt.

I think you're confusing that with people disliking the direction GW have been heading recently and knowing there needs to be a catalyst to change it (like we have seen with Roundtree taking over and now we're seeing heavily discounted getting started boxes and the like).

Serious question;
If Mantic are so popular, why do they go around with the kickstarter begging bowl *every* time they release/update a game?
Or allow *current* mini ranges / books to disappear?

You only have to look through the comments on their blog to see they struggle to fulfil their kickstarters anyway.

People keep fixating on GW's finances with gleeful schadenfreude, yet in Mantic's case to every outward appearance they are either living hand to mouth, or simply using kickstarter to maintain their 'plucky upstart ' cachet.

Yes, GWs profits might be falling but they are still a *long* way from the red.

RoperPG wrote:
Serious question;
If Mantic are so popular, why do they go around with the kickstarter begging bowl *every* time they release/update a game?
Or allow *current* mini ranges / books to disappear?

You only have to look through the comments on their blog to see they struggle to fulfil their kickstarters anyway.

People keep fixating on GW's finances with gleeful schadenfreude, yet in Mantic's case to every outward appearance they are either living hand to mouth, or simply using kickstarter to maintain their 'plucky upstart ' cachet.

Yes, GWs profits might be falling but they are still a *long* way from the red.

Because Kickstarter allows you to pay off the investment on the new product line and take preorders before production. That's great for any company. Maybe not the best for the customers who are putting forward money without having seen the product but it's working for them.
Kickstarter =/= begging.

RoperPG wrote:
Serious question;
If Mantic are so popular, why do they go around with the kickstarter begging bowl *every* time they release/update a game?

It's a great source of investment. They struggle with the logistics because they are still quite a small operation, and usually offer too much in kickstarters.
Their actual products all seem pretty well recieved by those that buy though, whilst the mini's aren't as good as GW, the games are so much better.

Yes, GWs profits might be falling but they are still a *long* way from the red.

They are only a few percentage points decline from being in the red, and don't seem to be improving. They won't disappear this year, but they aren't a million miles away from that inertia point.

Thing is... they've been ready to die anyday now since 2004 or so when Warmachine became popular and everyone said that Privateer was going to kill off GW.

Every year they are going to die any year now.

Every year they've been getting more sketchy, I don't think they're going to die any time soon.

Gw's new direction is great. Roundtree is making the right changes. No the games will never be very tourney friendly simply because that's not their aim. They are FUN though, except elder feth elder. Nor will they be bargain barrel pricing

Those who are still stuck in the rage of sigmar need to get over it and play a few games as the rules are written. its quick and dirty but fun. The lack of points is brilliant, I love it.

AOS is thriving in my area simply because we make the most of the game. We play path to glory, we use scenarios other than "kill eachother". This game has unbelievable potential and is only going to get BETTER. People need to realize they have the chance to get in to a game as its created that can be another WHFB that lasts the next 30 years.

All of that KOW is not WHFB and never will be. Its too simplistic and the tactics are the same for each army. I tried a few games and was very very underwhelmed with it. WHFB is gone. 9th age is trying really hard to fill that gap and is the closest thing to WHFB we will find but it still doesn't have the same feel to it. Too sterile, kinda blah for me. Its a pure tournament game and that just doesn't have the same kind of draw to me. To each their own though.

Moral of the story is if you are too stubborn to try and see what AOS has to offer and give it a real chance then you deserve to miss out on this game.

Oh and those that need points to play a game.....you are simply too unimaginative to be playing with toy soldiers and unfun.

And for the rare case that you have really given the game a good go and still don't enjoy it then the game simply isn't for you and its time to move on. Sorry you lost your WHFB many clubs still play 8th though.

[/rant]

Happy gaming im jacked for the new book next month

 namiel wrote:
And for the rare case that you have really given the game a good go and still don't enjoy it then the game

You mean those of us that liked WHFB because it was a massed battle rank and file game? I think there might be just a few more of us than your rant suggests

 jonolikespie wrote:

 namiel wrote:
And for the rare case that you have really given the game a good go and still don't enjoy it then the game

You mean those of us that liked WHFB because it was a massed battle rank and file game? I think there might be just a few more of us than your rant suggests

Ones that really played several games of AOS and really found it not a fun game. Im not talking about those that didn't give it an honest chance the ones that did. If my area is any indication of how that works out im willing to bet there are like 3 people here that fit that bill. Once people her really gave it a good go they have all converted and are now playing AOS regularly, more so than 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FYI I was not exempt from my own rant. I went to KOW after the end times, I didn't like it at all. I started playing 40k heavily again, still play it. I had the rage of sigmar a prejudice against this new thing that killed my old love, WHFB. I said "I cant play without points" I bitched and moaned about this game and what it represented THEN one day I played it. Then I played it again, and again and now im all in I love it.

My rant comes from my own perspective of how I felt about AOS.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 namiel wrote:
And for the rare case that you have really given the game a good go and still don't enjoy it then the game

You mean those of us that liked WHFB because it was a massed battle rank and file game? I think there might be just a few more of us than your rant suggests

Perhaps you should have bought models then, because something as risky as AoS was made possible by the near zero demand for WHFB. Consumers voted with their wallets, and found WHFB lacking. There could be millions of like minded individuals and if none of you invest in the hobby then it's for naught. AoS is a failure for different reasons, it is inherently more attractive to 40k players than WHFB (and 40k players are a spendy lot), and the simple rules make it super easy to get into. Seems like it would be a recipe for success other than a series of really horrible decisions left them without advocates in the gaming community. Once again consumer voted with their wallets, and GW was forced to listen. They have done a lot to address the issues with the launch, like shitcanning a CEO, changing their attitudes towards their customers, engaging with their customers via FAQs, and most applicably to AoS releasing a point system and trying to get into the tournament scene. If I'm honest I'm afraid it might be too little too late, but my friends and our local area seems pretty excited about it, so I'm a small bit hopeful.

Or did people vote with their wallets because of GW practices and shoddy rules writing and unbalanced books?

So basically you are blaming the victim of the crime. So instead of Games-Workshop fixing what THEY DID WRONG, they threw out the baby with the bath water.

So people are suppose to accept shoddy rule writing, price increase after price increase and unbalanced books and being made fun of from the CEO?

Something is wrong what you wrote Grimgold.

 Grimgold wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 namiel wrote:
And for the rare case that you have really given the game a good go and still don't enjoy it then the game

You mean those of us that liked WHFB because it was a massed battle rank and file game? I think there might be just a few more of us than your rant suggests

Perhaps you should have bought models then, because something as risky as AoS was made possible by the near zero demand for WHFB. Consumers voted with their wallets, and found WHFB lacking. There could be millions of like minded individuals and if none of you invest in the hobby then it's for naught. AoS is a failure for different reasons, it is inherently more attractive to 40k players than WHFB (and 40k players are a spendy lot), and the simple rules make it super easy to get into. Seems like it would be a recipe for success other than a series of really horrible decisions left them without advocates in the gaming community. Once again consumer voted with their wallets, and GW was forced to listen. They have done a lot to address the issues with the launch, like shitcanning a CEO, changing their attitudes towards their customers, engaging with their customers via FAQs, and most applicably to AoS releasing a point system and trying to get into the tournament scene. If I'm honest I'm afraid it might be too little too late, but my friends and our local area seems pretty excited about it, so I'm a small bit hopeful.

I did buy minis, says the end times books I bought for my NEWLY purchased 2500 point warriors of chaos army, how about my 5000 points of empire, no the proof lies in my 10000+ points of ogres

NO WAIT IT must be my hundreds and hundreds of skaven models I own.........

So don't put this on me like I or the people I game with somehow were the cause of gw creating AOS. Frankly I don't give a feth since I quite enjoy AOS now. My need for rank and file game has been killed, im no longer impressed seeing the alternatives out there now.

Sure, maybe it was bad rules and unbalanced books that made people leave the game in droves, whatever it was the fact is people stopped buying it so GW stopped making it. Could they have fixed everything, who knows, but GW didn't seem to think so because they chose to do something pretty risky rather than going the safe route and trying to fix their IP.

Also victim blaming is a weird phrase to use in this context, because if not buying WHFB models made you a victim, then 99.99% of the world are victims? As for what people should accept or not, that's up to them, but it's quite obvious that WHFB was beyond most peoples tolerance. By your own admission it was gak, overpriced, unbalanced, and most damning of all not fun to play. Is it any surprise people didn't buy it once there were better alternatives, and based on that is it any surprise GW stopped making it? I'm really failing to see why there is outrage on this, it's a simple sequence of cause and effect.

 Grimgold wrote:
Perhaps you should have bought models then

I did until I felt the rules go to hell and the model quality go down...

Also in hugely positive news, GW just announced an independently run tournament for AOS. Gw is headed in the right direction in what could be considered their biggest fault, customer involvement in the hobby outside of buying.

MORE HOPE FOR THE RIGHT DIRECTION

 shinros wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

puree wrote:

No no I didn't say it was more popular don't straw man

mm..

you tell me what's more popular?

You explicitly asked him to comment on what's more popular.

He didn't say you said it was more popular. He asked how you'd explain some other data if KOW was more popular. In other words it appears he directly addressed your explicit question and that you are then creating the strawman.

No to strawman you must mistate the other persons stance and then argue against that instead of what they actually said.

What I did was invite further discussion after citing my case and its supporting evidence.

What this is is misdirection to avoid the actual point which is a claim was made that aos isn't failing that's yet to be substantiated, I've given my argument as to why it is but the evidence it's doing well has not materialised.

So what evidence circumstantial as it is can the pro AoS crowd provide that it's not an abysmal failure?

I am just going to ask why does it matter to you if AOS is a failure or not? Do you play it? I suspect not considering your posts if you dislike a system find one you enjoy instead of using energy arguing about a game/miniatures you seem to have no interest in. What do you stand to gain from it?

Why does it matter? Why is he using energy arguing about it? You know, it's thanks to all the bitchers and complainers that games workshop is releasing this book. All of the AOS fanboys have no part in this step forward and evolution of the game. And we "bitchers" are just angry gamers that wanted to play fantasy warhammer but were given a gakky game. You should be giving thanks, because the protest is what has brought about the changes.

And there has been so much propaganda and protectionism given to this crappy game. Dhaka sencoring and deleting "negative" posts about AOS. Games workshop influincing popular YouTube channels to feature the game ( and never talk badly about it). But now our voices are being heard.

We wanted points, we wanted wargear and bam we got them. Now GW needs to add more tactics to the game. Benefits for the charging unit, more "rock paper scissor" unit countering ...some or any reason to create important combats. Give the player important decisions on where to move and who to fight. Then finally clean up the bad rules a bit...ie "no you can't fire your archers in hand to hand combat". Then maybe we've got something.

But you got to fight a little so GW can hear you. Complain, troll, do anything to spread the word. THAT is how the generals handbook was born!

Company releases product.
Customers complain product is inferior.
Company changes product to appeal to customers.

That's just how the world works, why are we debating why we are debating this?

bob82ca wrote:

 shinros wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

puree wrote:

No no I didn't say it was more popular don't straw man

mm..

you tell me what's more popular?

You explicitly asked him to comment on what's more popular.

He didn't say you said it was more popular. He asked how you'd explain some other data if KOW was more popular. In other words it appears he directly addressed your explicit question and that you are then creating the strawman.

No to strawman you must mistate the other persons stance and then argue against that instead of what they actually said.

What I did was invite further discussion after citing my case and its supporting evidence.

What this is is misdirection to avoid the actual point which is a claim was made that aos isn't failing that's yet to be substantiated, I've given my argument as to why it is but the evidence it's doing well has not materialised.

So what evidence circumstantial as it is can the pro AoS crowd provide that it's not an abysmal failure?

I am just going to ask why does it matter to you if AOS is a failure or not? Do you play it? I suspect not considering your posts if you dislike a system find one you enjoy instead of using energy arguing about a game/miniatures you seem to have no interest in. What do you stand to gain from it?

Why does it matter? Why is he using energy arguing about it? You know, it's thanks to all the bitchers and complainers that games workshop is releasing this book. All of the AOS fanboys have no part in this step forward and evolution of the game. And we "bitchers" are just angry gamers that wanted to play fantasy warhammer but were given a gakky game. You should be giving thanks, because the protest is what has brought about the changes.

And there has been so much propaganda and protectionism given to this crappy game. Dhaka sencoring and deleting "negative" posts about AOS. Games workshop influincing popular YouTube channels to feature the game ( and never talk badly about it). But now our voices are being heard.

We wanted points, we wanted wargear and bam we got them. Now GW needs to add more tactics to the game. Benefits for the charging unit, more "rock paper scissor" unit countering ...some or any reason to create important combats. Give the player important decisions on where to move and who to fight. Then finally clean up the bad rules a bit...ie "no you can't fire your archers in hand to hand combat". Then maybe we've got something.

But you got to fight a little so GW can hear you. Complain, troll, do anything to spread the word. THAT is how the generals handbook was born!

Right I see so you assume that people who liked AOS had no problems with the game? You assume that it's because of you that GW are doing this? So they did not get fans who liked AOS and those who organized tournaments to help with the general's handbook? Not the complainers or people who just troll? I am sure those people have early copies of the book they helped developed.

I am sure it was all the people who hate the game that truly helped give us what we had now. What I saw on facebook was people said they liked the game but they desired points for pick ups and gave constructive criticism not what I see here on the forums. I stand by what I said some people's obsession with grinding their axe with AOS in my opinion is a waste of time some people are complaining for the sake of it. Yes you can give constructive criticism to the game but I suspect the game won't turn into the thing you want. Well anyway you have you points I do hope you find at least some enjoyment in the wargame. Plus censoring? I see negative comments on facebook that have not been deleted yet.

GW are doing the correct thing as a business by supporting the hobby and community hence why people are giving them their money now. GW influencing youtubers? Or shockingly they may actually like the product and want to talk about? As I said if you don't like GW's practices don't give them your money vote with your wallet that's all a business care's about not a forums posting ranting and trolling and trolling would be the worst thing to do to get a companies attention since they won't take you seriously.

Anyway I am done with this topic tired of debating and the back and forth I am just going to enjoy the hobby.

 shinros wrote:

Anyway I am done with this topic tired of debating and the back and forth I am just going to enjoy the hobby.

The sooner everyone, doing the same thing, realize that this take from their REAL hobby time, the better. These discussions are worth it if one is interested in the discussion alone. Play the game, paint the miniatures and only get back here to discuss matters of principle

People are voting with their wallets which is why sales of minis are down 14% in the last few years.

Games stores are dropping GW stock because of how unreasonable they are.

X-wing has become number one after three years.

Kirby brought GW to its knees while doing everything to alienate customers that's why you have such ill will.

Roundtrees done some good but not enough to change direction .

Prices for new kits are still way too high to attract new people only the die hard fans will buy and there's simply too few of them to keep profits up.

Plugging the wound with royalties from games is a short term fix at best.