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Hey all,
Anyone else read the James Swallow Blood Angels books?
I'm reading Deus Encarmine at the moment (about 75% of the way through) and in my opinion it takes a lot of liberties with the 40k universe. Blood Angels taking orders from an Inquisitor (who is also able to hide something pretty big from them - I won't say what in case you read it), over a hundred drop pods being used for one company (so a drop pod each?), facing off against over 1,000 Chaos Space Marines (too many considering how rare they are in my opinion). My problem with it is that it pulls me out of the story as I suddenly stop and think 'what the hell is he talking about?'
So my question is what do others think? Does he get the fluff wrong or am I reading too much into it? Does it get any better in his other books?
His Sisters and arbites books are a lot better i think.
You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
First, keep in mind it's been a couple years since I've read the BA books.
Each author takes applies a different view to their books. Overall I thought his were fine. It's perfectly plausible for a 1k+ CSM warband to be running around. Or several of them.
The inquisitor bit seemed a bit odd, but I also think Swallow did fine explaining it. Astartes may still choose to follow an inquisitor, and he portrays it as the group following was misled. Given what they were misled about, it would not surprise me if they agreed to follow him. If their goals were the same, again, no reason not to be along for the ride.
The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
A drop pod each is just poor editing.
I'm not a big fan of his writing personally, and wish he hadn't been given the Garro story line. He's not amongst the worst though.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
JamesY wrote: The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
JamesY wrote: The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
IOW, the Inquisitor can go feth himself unless he has a really good reason for pulling the Astartes away from doing their jobs.
A) what else is a space marines job but to fight the enemy?
B) for what other reason would an inquisitor call them?
Is there much literature in which this suggested tension is shown? Because the fluff I've read doesn't seem to suggest any such hostility between them. Apart from Mortarian's Heart.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/22 21:09:20
JamesY wrote: The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
IOW, the Inquisitor can go feth himself unless he has a really good reason for pulling the Astartes away from doing their jobs.
While a Chapter Master (and more specifically from the founding chapters) can outright deny the Inquisition request, lesser ranks marines are less likely to do it unless they are fully sure their chapter master will back them up.
I think most of the times the marines will play along the Inquisitor request specially if their request makes sense (as some marines sent to retake some planet for the emperor but the Inquisitor request their help to destroy/banish some demons who are the real reason of the uprising)
Of course there is also a difference between an Inquisitor requesting several marines for some operation wich can be fairly normal than requesting a whole company or chapter do his bidding without good reason.
generally if an Inqusitor requests the help of space marines it's a pretty damned important matter and a space marine chapter is going to listen closely
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
James swallows books? He must really like reading.
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
JamesY wrote: The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
IOW, the Inquisitor can go feth himself unless he has a really good reason for pulling the Astartes away from doing their jobs.
Oh yeah, Space Marines can tell an Inquisitor to go feth himself. And possibly suffer horrible consequences, leading to the destruction of their entire chapter.
Like in any complex political system, the rules as written and the rules as they operate in reality are two very different things. And even the Astartes have to be careful who they piss off.
And then Grimaldus appears, and mysteriously the Inquisitorial attacks cease. That the Inquisition will stab a chapter in the back in battle but cease once they might draw retribution for doing so does not speak of their political power, only how far they are willing to damage their own cause to try and prove a point. The Marines could just as easily send assassins of their own to deal with the offending inquisitor (albeit difficult to do in this case due to the nature of the surprise attack and that they were locked in a battle already) should they deem it necessary.
I think most of the times the marines will play along the Inquisitor request specially if their request makes sense (as some marines sent to retake some planet for the emperor but the Inquisitor request their help to destroy/banish some demons who are the real reason of the uprising)
This is not pulling them away from doing their jobs, though. If the Marines hear this they are going go for the Daemons anyway. This is more like giving the Marines intel than orders.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 06:20:04
And then Grimaldus appears, and mysteriously the Inquisitorial attacks cease. That the Inquisition will stab a chapter in the back in battle but cease once they might draw retribution for doing so does not speak of their political power, only how far they are willing to damage their own cause to try and prove a point. The Marines could just as easily send assassins of their own to deal with the offending inquisitor (albeit difficult to do in this case due to the nature of the surprise attack and that they were locked in a battle already) should they deem it necessary.
Ugh, the Space Marine fanboyism.
Yes, this particular conclave of the Inquisition stopped when the leader of a much more powerful and politically connected chapter stepped in, AFTER THEIR EFFORTS HAD NEARLY WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE CHAPTER. It's doubtful the Celestial Lions will ever recover. The Inquisitors who engineered their destruction, meanwhile, suffered nothing more than perhaps a few harsh words and threats. In every way that matters, they got what they wanted. Why risk more infighting with the Black Templars?
But sure Chapter Master, have a dick measuring contest with an Ordo Hereticus conclave, or a high ranking member of the Administratum, or a representative of the High Lords of Terra. You answer to nobody! Surely it will be worth risking your chapter's destruction to play cowboy and feel cool. What could possibly go wrong?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade When these chapters faced the wrath of the Imperium, they clearly told the Imperial officials to feth off. They didn't go on a suicide mission into the Eye of Terror, or anything like that. Spess Mehrines don't listen to no pansy non-marines!
This crap works in Space Wolves fluff because they have ten foot thick furry-sue plot armor. But pissing off high ranking officials is generally a bad idea for chapters that want to keep existing and don't want to be charged with treason or heresy. Things work out a lot better for everyone if Astartes work WITH Imperium officials, not against them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 07:06:13
JamesY wrote: The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
IOW, the Inquisitor can go feth himself unless he has a really good reason for pulling the Astartes away from doing their jobs.
I Actually had a two page long answer post on this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/688454.page#8643090 largely concerning @Psiscience answer to an earlier post of mine but went "feth it" 'cause the length turned ridicilous. Anyway to help clear up the whole Inquisition thing. An inquisitors mandate has in theory only three limitations. 1: The Imperial palace where only the custodes hold authority. 2: Rouge trader vessels. 3: Astartes chapters. (Source: 4ed rulebook, DH 1st ed and RT) Even so there's very few instances where it's not in the space marines best intrest to aid an inquisitor. Whenever through logic, threats, negotiations, religious pacts or long standing oaths it's a poor Inquisitor that could not force the astartes into action.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 07:54:46
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Yes, this particular conclave of the Inquisition stopped when the leader of a much more powerful and politically connected chapter stepped in, AFTER THEIR EFFORTS HAD NEARLY WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE CHAPTER. It's doubtful the Celestial Lions will ever recover.
The Templars assigned Marines specifically to help them recover. They will be fine. I doubt the Inquisition will try something again when they face the Lions' faces, not their backs.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Company_of_Misery Worked out great for these guys. Their lives got so completely screwed that they turned to Chaos to escape.
No mention of the Inquisition here.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade When these chapters faced the wrath of the Imperium, they clearly told the Imperial officials to feth off. They didn't go on a suicide mission into the Eye of Terror, or anything like that. Spess Mehrines don't listen to no pansy non-marines!
Again no mention of the Inquisition here.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/165973-First%20(and%20only%20RT)%20appearance%20of%20the%20SoBs.html Ah yes. A Marine of the Rainbow Warriors gettin' purged by a nun with a gun.
This is from first edition. What next, are you going to argue that Guardsmen are armed with shuriken weapons or that the chief librarian of the Ultramarines is a half-eldar astropath? Because if the Inquisition tolerates that...
Ugh, the Space Marine fanboyism.
Ugh, the Inquisition fanboyism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 08:17:13
JamesY wrote: The inquisitor part isn't odd. People seem to have an issue with space marines taking orders from humans, but senior inquisitors do have that authority, and a chapter would have to have an exceptionally good reason for not helping with their cause if requested, and would likely be investigated after.
IOW, the Inquisitor can go feth himself unless he has a really good reason for pulling the Astartes away from doing their jobs.
Well,
A Chapter Master has the authority to act as he wishes and is answerable only to others of his rank.
.
A chaptermaster is a Peer of the Imperium, just like high ranking Admirals, sector governors, high ranking members of the Arbites and, of course, Inquisitors.
So a chaptermaster who is shirking his duty for no good reason would be answerable to quite a few people, all of them just as powerful and influential (or even more so) as he is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/23 09:52:54
And then Grimaldus appears, and mysteriously the Inquisitorial attacks cease. That the Inquisition will stab a chapter in the back in battle but cease once they might draw retribution for doing so does not speak of their political power, only how far they are willing to damage their own cause to try and prove a point. The Marines could just as easily send assassins of their own to deal with the offending inquisitor (albeit difficult to do in this case due to the nature of the surprise attack and that they were locked in a battle already) should they deem it necessary.
Ugh, the Space Marine fanboyism.
Yes, this particular conclave of the Inquisition stopped when the leader of a much more powerful and politically connected chapter stepped in, AFTER THEIR EFFORTS HAD NEARLY WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE CHAPTER. It's doubtful the Celestial Lions will ever recover. The Inquisitors who engineered their destruction, meanwhile, suffered nothing more than perhaps a few harsh words and threats. In every way that matters, they got what they wanted. Why risk more infighting with the Black Templars?
But sure Chapter Master, have a dick measuring contest with an Ordo Hereticus conclave, or a high ranking member of the Administratum, or a representative of the High Lords of Terra. You answer to nobody! Surely it will be worth risking your chapter's destruction to play cowboy and feel cool. What could possibly go wrong?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade When these chapters faced the wrath of the Imperium, they clearly told the Imperial officials to feth off. They didn't go on a suicide mission into the Eye of Terror, or anything like that. Spess Mehrines don't listen to no pansy non-marines!
This crap works in Space Wolves fluff because they have ten foot thick furry-sue plot armor. But pissing off high ranking officials is generally a bad idea for chapters that want to keep existing and don't want to be charged with treason or heresy. Things work out a lot better for everyone if Astartes work WITH Imperium officials, not against them.
Is there actually a rainbow warriors chapter? short story written mid pride parade?
@spyro killer yes in the rt book. Black armour with a rainbow square on their face plate. They were removed likely because of those 'other' associations that rainbows symbolise. The only reference to them now is their homeworld "prism", which has records deleted in place of the chapter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 16:32:14
Feh. Yeah, if you consider John Wayne a good example of a Sororitas and like gratuitous lesbians.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Feh. Yeah, if you consider John Wayne a good example of a Sororitas and like gratuitous lesbians.
Gratuitous lesbians ? I'm a rather over-sexed, pervy kind of person, but I'll be darned if I can detect any subtle , veiled sexual content in either sisters book or the audio play, much less anything of that sort that is overt or blatant.
Indeed , I think people basically HAVE TO complain about Sisters chest armor, because there is scarce anything of a sexual nature in this army of women to otherwise complain about .
Well........maybe the girls on the cover art were too pretty ? But then I suppose if they had made the girls on the cover art exceptionally ugly the claim would then be made that the artist was implying Butch lesbianism, female-to-male transgenderism, or a sadistic hatred of women .
I think SOB demonstrate that when it comes to women, you can't please anyone , not men, not women, not feminists , not male chauvinists. And that when it comes to women , a lot of people, both women and men, see something sexual in it even when it's just a female filling out forms or getting shot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/24 21:12:38
I'd say that Verity giving up her entire career so she can deploy with Miriya on her reward penitence mission, and the book closing on them holding hands staring out into the void and promising to stay beside each other forever is pretty damn explicit, unless they have to start making out in front of you for you to see it.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
I'd say that Verity giving up her entire career so she can deploy with Miriya on her reward penitence mission, and the book closing on them holding hands staring out into the void and promising to stay beside each other forever is pretty damn explicit, unless they have to start making out in front of you for you to see it.
Anything that is being implied is implicit. If they were making out, that would be explicit. You are inferring sexual feelings from their actions. An obvious or likely inference is not the same as information being explicit.
Sorry for the pedantry, but I'm an English teacher so couldn't stop myself
And I'm utilising hyperbole to indicate that the implied subtext is so obvious that it may as well state it precisely.
Nice try though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 11:39:57
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
I wasn't entirely sure what you meant by the John Wayne reference.
John Wayne typically played "heroes " who were impertinent jerks.
I dare say that MOST "heroes" or " Heroines " in fiction in the western world , certainly 90% of what comes out of Hollywood, the past 60 or so years, are impertinent jerks.
Hyper -individuality ( --- as long as it conforms exactly to the currently popular norm ) is exalted . Restraint , practical subordination , self-effacement ? Rarely or never played up, more often it is implied they are weaknesses or outright vices.
Miriya is no exception to this.
If that is what you were suggesting, I certainly wouldn't dispute it.
That would be far less a criticism of James Swallow though, and more a general indictment of the perversity, hypocrisy, and self-destructive tendencies of western culture.
You don't have to search out James Swallow to find this . Rather, it is hard to avoid it or find an alternative to it in fiction and popular culture.
For example ; The Space Marine Game --- otherwise known as Warhammer 40K , absolutely wallows in exalting hyper-individualistic impertinent jerks despite the quasi - totalitarian Theocracy setting.
--- which is why I never have anything to say about Space Marines except that they don't interest me at all / I hate them.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'd say that Verity giving up her entire career so she can deploy with Miriya on her reward penitence mission, and the book closing on them holding hands staring out into the void and promising to stay beside each other forever is pretty damn explicit, unless they have to start making out in front of you for you to see it.
Several times in my working life I have done essentially what Verity did, but not, believe it or not, because of any sexual attraction, but for the mundane reason that more often than not staying with a co-worker or co-workers you like / get along with makes for a more tranquil, less troubled existence.
Work and life in general basically sucks, why court more suck-dom ? Better to avoid it.
Well, James Swallow is English apparently, and I can't say I know much about womens culture in the UK ........
But certainly in my culture, women holding hands , hugging, brushing each others hair, trading clothes, calling each other every day, addressing each other with , " I love you " and other endearments, etc, etc, is absolutely commonplace. ( And was so when homosexuality could get you lynched. )
If the motive for all these goings on is sexual , then 40 to 80% of the female population must be lesbian. If so, then if survival is a virtue, then rape should be counted a virtue rather than a vice.
I have long been quite skeptical of the Sigmund Freud / Hugh Hefner cosmology that dogmatically and narrowly asserts there is a sexual motive behind EVERYTHING. In my experience it very often proves at least counter-productive , or outright destructive.
To cite just one example ; when I was a child, 40 years ago, Halloween was arguably the funnest holiday in the year for a child. It was a real blast. Children, even quite young children, got to go out without adult supervision and play in the streets as late as midnight , and collected grocery bags full of candy from strangers . Today Halloween is a dull empty boor , there is little left of it except Hollywood merchandizing.
A bunch of "adults" got so carried away with their macabre and prurient fantasizing that they started seeing a child rapist / killer behind every door and lamp post.
--- never mind that even if this were true, you can do no more about it than you can do something about lightening strikes, car accidents, or Leukemia, ---except to ruin a fun holiday.
By and large, these sex theories have not given us a funner, freer , world, but just the opposite.
So, no, I'm not keen on seeing a sexual motive in every little thing.
But certainly in my culture, women holding hands , hugging, brushing each others hair, trading clothes, calling each other every day, addressing each other with , " I love you " and other endearments, etc, etc, is absolutely commonplace. ( And was so when homosexuality could get you lynched. )
If the motive for all these goings on is sexual , then 40 to 80% of the female population must be lesbian.
Have a wife who is one of 4 sisters.
Can confirm that they love each other, touch each others hands, play with hair and trade clothes/fashion/intimate tips without any evidence of sexual attraction (so far)
I think that, some earlier stuff from Ian Watson not withstanding, anyone who looks at Space marine/Sisters Brotherly/Sisterly relationships and sees smut is projecting.
Honestly this sounds like the old "FRODO AND SAM WHERE TOTALLY GAY!" arguement you started to hear crop up repeatedly following the release of the LOTR movies. thing is, you can have a deep respect and even love for someone, without it being a sexual (homo or hetro) relationship.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: Honestly this sounds like the old "FRODO AND SAM WHERE TOTALLY GAY!" arguement you started to hear crop up repeatedly following the release of the LOTR movies. thing is, you can have a deep respect and even love for someone, without it being a sexual (homo or hetro) relationship.
Honestly, I think in both cases there may be a cultural element. We in the modern western world, particuarly the US, are pretty bloody unaffectionate with anyone we're not romantic with. In some cultures, it's the norm for straight guys to hold hands walking down the street, or for people to great each other with a kiss on the cheek. Here people think that's "gay," and homosexuality becoming widely accepted actually hasn't changed that at all. Now instead of "ew, that's so gay!" we have people on the internet being all: "omg, they're totally gay lovers! So hot!" *swoon. It's this bizarre combination of repression and the need to sexualize everything.
The idea that people from a completely different fictional culture, or just people in an intense, life threatening situation, could express even mild physical affection without wanting to bone is something that many westerners just can't seem to wrap their heads around.
BrianDavion wrote: Honestly this sounds like the old "FRODO AND SAM WHERE TOTALLY GAY!" arguement you started to hear crop up repeatedly following the release of the LOTR movies. thing is, you can have a deep respect and even love for someone, without it being a sexual (homo or hetro) relationship.
Honestly, I think in both cases there may be a cultural element. We in the modern western world, particuarly the US, are pretty bloody unaffectionate with anyone we're not romantic with. In some cultures, it's the norm for straight guys to hold hands walking down the street, or for people to great each other with a kiss on the cheek. Here people think that's "gay," and homosexuality becoming widely accepted actually hasn't changed that at all. Now instead of "ew, that's so gay!" we have people on the internet being all: "omg, they're totally gay lovers! So hot!" *swoon. It's this bizarre combination of repression and the need to sexualize everything.
The idea that people from a completely different fictional culture, or just people in an intense, life threatening situation, could express even mild physical affection without wanting to bone is something that many westerners just can't seem to wrap their heads around.
I dunno even without physiucal contact these days it seems that people are detirmined to read any affection between two people as a sign of romantic inclinations. see the Finn+Poe rumors for star wars, or the rumors that maybe Captain America and Bucky where more then friends even though they'd been pretty clearly eistablished as straight (course in the comic books Cap had also been pretty clearly eistablished as Not a Nazi, but that didn't stop marvel comics. but I'll refrain from ranting on THAT)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: Honestly this sounds like the old "FRODO AND SAM WHERE TOTALLY GAY!" arguement you started to hear crop up repeatedly following the release of the LOTR movies. thing is, you can have a deep respect and even love for someone, without it being a sexual (homo or hetro) relationship.
Honestly, I think in both cases there may be a cultural element. We in the modern western world, particuarly the US, are pretty bloody unaffectionate with anyone we're not romantic with. In some cultures, it's the norm for straight guys to hold hands walking down the street, or for people to great each other with a kiss on the cheek. Here people think that's "gay," and homosexuality becoming widely accepted actually hasn't changed that at all. Now instead of "ew, that's so gay!" we have people on the internet being all: "omg, they're totally gay lovers! So hot!" *swoon. It's this bizarre combination of repression and the need to sexualize everything.
The idea that people from a completely different fictional culture, or just people in an intense, life threatening situation, could express even mild physical affection without wanting to bone is something that many westerners just can't seem to wrap their heads around.
Yeah, in Russia it is not weird for men to hug and kiss other men. It is a normal way of greeting. Politicians seem especially fond of it for some reason
But it baffles me how anyone could think Frodo and Sam were gay. I mean, Sam is in love with Rosie Cotton all the way throughout the book!
And even if you only saw the movie it is pretty obvious:
4500 
) is exalted . Restraint , practical subordination , self-effacement ? Rarely or never played up, more often it is implied they are weaknesses or outright vices.
